Funny, I live in Austria and I wish to emigrate to the US. I consider Europe, and Austria in particular a living nightmare.
I got mixed signals from the place. While some people are extremely friendly, I also perceived quite a defensive atmosphere. Something solid on the surface but struggling below it, like a defence of daily routine - not really lively or happy. But it could also depend on the region, I guess.
I wouldn't say people are overtly happy at all. Something like 'jolly on occasion' is a better fit. They kind of store it up for parties and festivals. This isn't a negative for me though. It's rather have honesty that the sickly sweet fake nice you get in the US.
At least where I live, people like to complain a lot. Idle grousing is sort of a pass time. Honestly I'm not sure why.
Austria was dirt ass poor within living memory. Anyone with gray hair probably had a couple pair of d lederhosen for their whole childhood. Plus Hitler was Austrian. The ruling political party in my state was started by a literal Nazi. Sexual abuse in the Catholic church was (is ?) rampant. That kind history has to weigh on a society.
Or maybe people are genuinely nice in the US and there's just an subconscious anxiety and depression in Austria?
>At least where I live, people like to complain a lot. Idle grousing is sort of a pass time. Honestly I'm not sure why.
Perhaps a subconscious anxiety and depression? Seems like Austria is a failing society to be honest.
While all these things are important, my main issue is far deeper, see my reply to alangibson.
My friends from Romania are paid significantly less than their native Austrian collegues. Are their bosses racist? I don't know, I don't necessarily think so, yet the society somehow converged to this state.
> true integration
I don't believe full integration happens until the second generation. We immigrants will always be from somewhere else. Their kids have a foot in both worlds. Their kids are fully from where they live. I could be wrong; these were my observations living with a large number of immigrants in Seattle.
News orgs would fall over themselves trying to dredge something to be offended about in Germany’s colonial past or discussing any triviality regarding black people.
I saw this one article about people from Eastern Europe working in Germany, lodged together like cattle, passports taken by the employer for safe keeping. Modern slavery happening in 2021 on German soil. Few comments online if any condemning the perpetrators and zero empathy, no marches, no protests.
I was having a beer with friends in a bar in western Austria a while back. A middle aged local was loudly, but in a friendly tone, proclaiming the horrors of immigration to us. We were from Sweden, Ghana, China. I asked (in my broken german) why he thought we three would be a good audience for this monologue, considering our obvious non-Austrian-ness? He quickly countered that "you guys are not real immigrants. In his mind a real immigrant does not contribute to society, misbehave, and whatnot.
I think at least some racism have foundations stemming from other issues.
The real issue (which causes all the above differences anyway) is cultural. What matters is not comparing things, but comparing people, their attitude, principles, and way of life.
For me, Europe is an socialist dystopia which punishes individualism, risk-taking, private businesses, and where people don't have a passion for much, no hobbies, and no aspirations.
For any particular thing that people do, for example what hobbies they might have, but this could be extended to almost anything, what car do they drive, etc, anything that can be analyzed statistically you will find that the distribution for people in the US is far wider than the distribution for people in the EU. Whatever it is that interests you and is outside the median, you will find that there are people in the US who share your interests, but you will likely won't find the same to be true in europe. The distribution of anything in europe is narrower.
Let me give you a silly example. On average, americans eat far worse cheese then europeans, but if cheese is your thing you will easily (!!) find better cheese in the US compared to the best cheese I can find here in Europe. But that's not all, if you explain this to an average american who isn't into cheese, they will understand that cheese is your thing, just like they have their own peculiar things they are into. But I will not be able to explain the same thing to an european, all I would get is "what's wrong with our cheese?" and "you are stupid because our cheese is great".
This is not a thought experiment. I have done this exact experiment with cheese with many americans and many europeans. As silly as the example is, it illustrates the point that europeans simply cannot accept that you might care about things they don't care about while americans understand this idea very well, even if they don't understand the thing.
Let's take another example, general aviation. It's an expensive and rare hobby even in the US, but even middle-class people can partake in it, and they do, it's a thing with communities associated with it. It's not a thing here in europe. It's extraordinarily rare, and it's extraordinarily expensive -- not relative to european incomes, but in absolute terms -- GA is fantastically more expensive in europe compared to the US, so you have to be made out of money, and if you do it at all, it's not a community thing.
Just search youtube for anything, any kind of activity that you are interested in, and you will find that the majority of videos are produced by americans. I posit this is not a coincidence.
Someone might claim that's because all these activities cost money, and it's not simply the fact that europeans are not interested in these things, but rather that they don't have enough money to do them. And therein lies the problem. The reason europeans don't have money is because doing business here is a terrible endeavour stiffed at every step of the way. People don't really start businesess, and starting a businesses is shed in a negative light societally. People see their bosses as their enemy (from which they require mandatory (!!) union participation to protect yourself from).
Mind you, not any particular boss they might have, which might be terrible as a person, but the whole concept of "us workers" vs. "they the rich people". Of course, your direct manager is very unlikely to be rich, but in most people's minds the bosses are "part of the oppresing class" and they are the enemy that the state must protect themselves from. The idea that you might even become a boss one day, say by starting a business is ideologically rejected. The regular people are the good people and they don't join the enemy by becoming the oppresor.
I could go on and on, but the gist of it is that I have trouble finding people here in europe who I share values with, but I have no such trouble in the US.
I'm from the EU and I totally agree with you, I'm always having trouble fitting in because you are required to be so passive.
I need to have some sort of aspiration for every day, that's what gives me purpose and meaning, and in the end happiness. And I get really depressed and demotivated when I'm forced to stagnate from idleness.
I guess you can always argue that it's a matter of preference, if you are the type of person that wants to have a safe and secure life, knowing that you're cared for in every day, and knowing that tomorrow will be identical to today. Or if you're the type of person that thrives on hopes and dreams and need to be motivated and stimulated by some kind of vision. But I'm also having a hard time seeing how Europe will stay competitive and innovative with such a culture, even if it can be argued to be "morally superior".
In 2015, first year with a good salary, i started learning a new hobby every year. River kayak, sea kayak, windsurf, kitesurf, skiing, paragliding (did not learn anything in 2020 coz covid).
You are absolutelly not required to be passive. I'm not. I went hiking three weeks ago, the weather over the Pyrenneans and Alps was shit, so we decided to continue to Spain. We biked through the Madrenas, then stopped at a lake (i dont' remember which one, i think it was west of Teruel) where we decided to do a water hike for a day, hiked around in a natural park near Cuenca then decided to go south and visit the Alhambra, then going north while hugging the Eastern coast of spain. Long story short, weather was starting to get messy when we got around Valencia, so we crossed spain again to get back to France through Vallaloid/Vitoria. 11 days of mostly hiking and canyoning unsupervised, i even found a non-managed river where we tried to do some hydrospeed (without the half-boat). Next year i'll learn rock-climbing, because we had some missed opportunities there, but it was fun and i most definitely will take unpaid leave again in spring to do the same when the rivers are more interesting. Just find stuff you like to do, and people you like to do the stuff with. Also, it will give you conversation subjects and help you discover people like-minded. My new manager seems to be as fond as me of canyoning and hiking, so i'll probably invite her and her friends next time around.
For people with mine, Europe is perfect. For instance, I think this is just an obvious fact
> People see their bosses as their enemy
and I think this is a great idea
> Mandatory (!!) union participation
Also, a big part of your comment was about the amount of stuff available. What I always tell young folks I talk to here that are thinking about moving to the US is this: If you want to own a lot of stuff, move to the US. If you want anything else stay here.
Edit: I missed this line that I do disagree with:
> people don't have a passion for much, no hobbies, and no aspirations.
You should have applied the same distribution analysis here as you did for cheese. People have plenty of hobbies, just in a narrower range (ie regional outdoors sports). There are even motorsports, but for common people it tends to be confined to tuning VW hatchbacks.
It's interesting to see a counterpoint.
I take offense to that. You can find great cheese in the US. In fact, i found a small producer in WV that produced exceptionnally good goat cheese, and could compete with the best in Europe, but you can't find this on the market, you have to be part of (or invited to) his community to sample it.
I also happen to really like cheese and to have sampled the best producers in Europe. And i have a sister who worked in different starred kitchen, and got to try their products (sometime paid for it, sometime it was just not eaten soon enough for the chef) (and especially when the pandemic hit and they had to empty their fridges, great few days for me). They have cheese from all over Europe, NZ and Japan. None from the US.
US good cheese is really expensive, and even then, only compete against some categories of cheese (Brie, Goat cheese -goat here for chèvre, not brebis- and some pasteurized hard cheese). They are definitely lacking in diversity, and most cheese plate had four kind of cheese on it, sometime as high as six.
Idem for wine, a 60$ quality-bottle in California would be as good as a 15€ Sicillian or Cote-du-Rhone (We blind tested with same cepages). I don't drink anymore, but my stay in the US was interesting on this point. In US wine, enough diversity exist, so i think they will be competing soon on the global market, but right now?
Also, general aviation: Lycée Alfred Kastler (school i went to) proposed a 200€ course to get a pilot license (i'm dumbing down the terms, don't really remember th license name: we would be able to fly small planes). 40 students took this course in 2007 (year i was in), 26 finished it (i bailed, so did not get the license, worst mistake of my life tbh). So i guess you might not have researched enough, it was in one of the poor area of France, and i know another Highschool offered this license near Bordeaux. If i had to guess at least two dozen highschool offer the same in France, as we have a lot of small aerodroms everywhere, and there is no beach where i never saw personnal airplanes flying around in the summer.
Also parachutism is a thing too.
> where people don't have a passion for much, no hobbies, and no aspirations.
I'm only hiking/canyoning/rafting every summer, and kitesurfing/windsufing in fall/spring, ever year since 2015 i take lessons in a new sport (paragliding last summer) to see if it's interesting and i could add it to my list of "things i do when i'm not working". 35h work week and 7 weeks of paid leave leave me with a lot of time on my hand.
I spend a month in WV, hiking, kayaking/rafting and playing music, i can tell you one thing: West virginia might be one of the most beautifull, interesting place on earth, but no working american who did not work there was present. None. I saw more people biking in the Madrenas desert for a day than i saw hiking/kayaking in Pocahontas county and surrounding forests for the best part of a month.
Other point are kinda political and better left to each and everyone own feelings, but i guess you're quite young and did not see much of europe.
And Cheese?! I'm not even in to cheese but my Instagram gets cheese posts because I follow some UK stuff. I don't know what this guy is on about.
We are enemies of our bosses, our hobbies are ridiculous expensive (unless it is football), and at the same time individualism is punished, risk-taking and private business are punished by all sides, it seems like only illegal business actually work, and both media and people around are trying to push their religious beliefs on us.
So, yes, it can always be worse.
There's very little exchange of new ideas and new approaches.Once you reach "good enough" it's impossible to question the state of things.Especially if you are not austrian or native german speaker.
I'm pretty happy with the cheese situation in Europe. I'm from Hungary, and thanks to the EU, I can get the best cheese from Italy, Spain, Switzerland and France even in relatively small towns. It was not like that 20 years ago. I live now in Munich, Germany, and there I have access to even more kinds of cheese. Both countries have tons of "artisan" cheese factories.
Regarding GA, I also disagree, though I only have experience from Hungary. There, most towns have small airports for GA, my dad often brought me there and let one of his friends take me for a short flight. Once, I wanted to learn to fly a hang glider, it was arranged in half a day, and they welcomed me, and I flew a couple of times. Note, my dad was not a pilot, or anything, just had to serve two years in the military, so he knew people that were interested in GA.
Please elaborate, that is quite a statement