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That is an unfair comparison on the edge of a strawman. In vim, you see your mode right at the cursor shape (bar in insert, block in normal, selection in visual). It’s like saying that DEs are bad because switching active windows is modal. Why not send input to the first window in the taskbar by holding ctrl and to the second by holding ctrl-shift then? Does that sound absurd? Even when you make a modal mistake once in a while, no stakes are lost because uu.

One thing I agree on is that UI could use more graphics, smoothness and features. But all my attempts to adopt vscode failed miserably. It’s just too mouse-y and too configure-y but still lacks futuristic features I want.

Yes, visual feedback reduces the chance of errors with mode switching. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) it's one of the improvements vim has on old vi. Unlimited undo is another one vi certainly didn't have from the start.

I did say the stakes are much lower. But shouldn't we make less critical interfaces with the same care we make more critical ones?

And yes, many things we still have in UIs are arguably mode switching and bad, it's just we haven't figured out better ways to deal with it. With editing we did, long ago.

How is it easier to move your hand to a trackpad than it is to keep your hands right on the keyboard, do `ci)` which is (c)hange (i)nside `)` to delete all of a function's parameters and instantly be retyping them?

I don't understand how you can speak so authoritatively as if I'm accessing a completely different part of my brain when I'm using vim modes when I'm telling you that having to navigate a cursor to click, drag, and select all text is so much more context switching

And also, that ci) command? It's a language. You can do `ci"`, which is (c)hange (i)nside " to instantly change a string without having to hold the backspace button or manipulate a cursor.

I see your point, but I think we’re held back not by UI, but by input methods, including physical ones. And I partially attribute that to vim’s [niche] success. It’s so annoying to hold ctrl-shift to select anything in windows-likes and personally I make much more mistakes while properly fingering the keyboard in these than while using vim modes. The path I see is to make better keyboards with separate keys for fundamental edit ops like selecting, language switching, word/structure navigation, etc, and then some more. We’re too stuck in these typewriter interfaces.

I agree on the graphics part. I've tried doom emacs for the graphics, but it's not quite the same thing. On Mac, though, vimr[0] had a nice UI for neovim. On linux I'm yet to find a neovim GUI I'm happy with.

[0]: https://github.com/qvacua/vimr

I vaguely remember Onivim looked quite nice on Linux. Have you tried that?

Vimr looks excellent on macOS though, I'll definitely give it a go.

> But modal editing is just a bad idea.

Citation please? I mean, from a personal point of view I'm mostly in agreement with you, but your post reads like a straw man argument with a non apology affixed. "Not trying to force you into anything" followed by "modal editing is just a bad idea" just reads like judgmental noise to me – can it can be backed up with actual research?

Meanwhile vim (and variants) exists and are hugely popular and so to me it seems that by definition modal editing can't be that bad an idea, or such multitudes of people simply wouldn't use these tools and they'd die out. Doesn't this kind of invalidate your argument?

I'm a staunch Sublime Text supporter myself, having paid license fees since 2011-2012 sometime. I've dabbled with vim and friends but never really "got it" – yet I don't presume that my inability to see the light means there isn't one to be seen.

> Citation please?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Humane_Interface

He argues for ZoomWorld, so his mileage may vary.

> It's like everyone's zipping around in electric cars, and some people still swear by those gear/radio sticks.

Anecdotally, the vim users are the ones "zipping" around their code. I can't remember a single time thinking it was painful watching a vim user when pair-programming. In contrast, it's often quite painful watching someone slowly point and click around their IDE.

> But modal editing is just a bad idea. We've known since the 70s.

My understanding was that the UX studies around modal editing showed it was hard for new users, which isn't quite the same thing as "bad".

Personally I think what really works about vim for me is the composition of action and motion in a sort of language.

Yea, it's a little difficult to describe, but it's more than just pure speed, it's mental load. Vim let's me integrate the entire development process into a single flow. This is true fractally: from typing all the way to being able to comfortably live inside my screen sessions.

It's difficult for me articulate how valuable it is to maintaining flow to almost _never_ feel like I'm switching muscle-memory contexts, where my text editing and screen switching and file-handling and model-training and everything else all feel like I'm in the same app.

I've never come close to achieving this using a graphical IDE, including with vim keybindings.

It obviously requires up-front investment in a way that more newb-friendly GUI tools don't, but I was lucky enough to make that commitment in college, when the initial hit to my productivity was practically costless.

How can you tell modal editing is bad without having used it? You said you've never gone for vim in 25 years, how then can you know what model editing is like? Because you read some behavioral psychology textbook?

Your comment is by far the most ignorant one I've come across on hackernews.

Take my advise, go ahead and try out vim for a few weeks. Then even if your opinions don't change at least you'll have an ounce of credibility

I'm pretty sure they meant that they tried it multiple times, but didn't like it.

Same with me. I try and get on the vim hype train. seems like a great idea, but i can never 'get' vim.

I feel compelled to link to the SO answer:

Your problem with Vim is that you don't grok vi https://stackoverflow.com/a/1220118/867757

You cannot create a "language for manipulating text" in a modeless editor, at least not a very rich one.

:%s/. We've known since the 70s/ in my opinion/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extingu...

You have started with an opinion and a theory of why vim doesn't work for you. This is perfectly valid. After all who knows you better than you? Then you launder that opinion through an appeal to entirely hypothetical authority "We've known" and bad analogy and what comes out is eternal truth as authentic as the town facades in a cheap western movie.

It's a bad analogy because a car's controls are operated while carefully piloting a ton of metal at life ending speeds around 17 assholes on their phones while your editor is operated safely at your desk. Your car also has few enough vital controls that they can all be given a physical manifestation while your editor has a lot of functionality and most provide some way for you to access all of this functionality easily. All options have some downsides and mental overhead.

You can provide a wide array of buttons possibly in sub and sub sub menus see content creation applications. Specifically 3D modeling apps.

Filtering options as you type. Consider application launchers on most platforms where you could type Fir<Enter> to launch Firefox.

Sequences of shortcuts after you have exhausted the standard fare. See Emacs default key bindings for an extreme example.

The thing is that even Holding down Control while you press c is an example of a modal action. The C key either inserts its character or copies selected to a buffer based on whether the control key is held down. This is modal!

The same is to a degree true of sub menus as the functionality presented changes based on which menu is open and which options you have picked previously.

You are to some degree paying the inevitable cost of navigating a large number of functions and the only thing you can do is either forego the power of additional functionality by using simpler tools or figure out how to pay it in the least expensive fashion.

You've elevated your preference to how to pay this tax to a scientific choice and reduced a massive number your fellows to Luddites in an abusive relationship with their editor defending their choice with misplaced pride. I invite you to consider that perhaps 1/4 of your fellows aren't simply idiots and perhaps there are reasons that for them this method of dealing with complexity is effective for them.

If you followed through with your analogy, you'd have to concede that non-modal editors are like cars without gearboxes.

Either way, what's distracting context switching for one, is essential functionality that enables effortless work for another.

(Edit: I mostly use VSCode with the Neovim extension myself)