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Comment by tyingq | Hacker News Reader

>Then I'm not sure what you can even do with those

Assume some end users used the same passwords on other, non-twitch accounts. That's what makes hacked passwords valuable, no matter where they came from.

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That's something I've wondered - do password hashes tend to be the same across platforms? Is everyone using the same hashing algorithm? Isn't this also what salting is for?

Never implemented auth myself.

In a perfect world, no, but lazily someone could skip salting and/or use common hashing functions. IIRC this was a problem at Sony not too long ago.

Yes, the hashes are (usually) different due to different algorithms and/or salts. But, if you've brute forced one by using good guesses, and know the email/userid for other sites, and the user used the same or a similar password...that doesn't matter.

If everyone did things the way they're supposed to then no, hashes should never be the same between platforms. Using the same algorithm is likely, but as you said, salting solves that.

But mistakes such as salting with just the username are sometimes made even by very large companies and in that case, hashes could be the same.

Why does it matter if hashes are the same?

That only tells you the passwords are the same.

If they are the same everywhere, you can precompute a huge database of hashes (called a rainbow table) and simply lookup the hash in the table when breaches occur to find the password. By salting, every provider who stores credentials has different hashes for the same inputs which makes the approach far less attractive at a large scale.

> If they are the same everywhere, you can precompute a huge database of hashes (called a rainbow table) and simply lookup the hash in the table when breaches occur to find the password.

You can do this anyway. But the space requirements of a rainbow table are so large that including an account's username in the password would make a rainbow table completely unfeasible.

It doesn't matter at all if one person's hashed password is identical across two of that person's accounts on two different websites. The identical hash will instantly let an attacker (with access to both hashes) know that this person shares the same password across two accounts. But that is of no value; the attacker is going to start by assuming that it's true anyway.

Salts are there to ensure that two accounts on the same website which have identical passwords nevertheless have different password hashes.

Pretty much this. If they gain one email/username password combination - they can use it elsewhere.

If they are properly hashed and salted, they can not.

The point here is that once you brute force the plaintext password, the same password might be used elsewhere.

What if you did something like hash(plaintext_pw+"twitchsalt") <browser> ---> <server> hash(browser_hash + db_salt)

Well, bear in mind, the hacker also has the exact code Twitch uses to salt it's hashes.

If I understand this right, the problem is "twitchsalt" has to be known so that you can generate the same hash for future logins. So it's just one iteration of hashing more for a brute force attempt (modern hashing algorithms already use multiple iterations of hashing to make brute forcing harder)

The browser_hash is now the password.

Password salting has nothing to do with password reuse.

Imagine two people have accounts on each of two websites:

             eBay           YouTube
   
   Alice     sunlight       bobrules
   
   Bob       bobrules       bobrules

A password reuse attack dumps the YouTube database, cracks Bob's password, and then accesses Bob's eBay account. The fix for this is that Bob should use different passwords on his different accounts. Hashing helps by making step 2 ("crack Bob's password") more difficult. Salting does not affect this attack in any way. Note that the attacker didn't bother to dump the eBay database.

The attack that salting protects against dumps the YouTube database, cracks Bob's password, and then accesses Alice's YouTube account.

"Salting does not affect this attack in any way." Yes it does. If you habe unsalted passwords you can just use a rainbow table to look passwords up.

And that is not affected by salting. You can use a rainbow table to look passwords up whether or not those passwords are salted. There is zero conceptual connection between the two ideas.

Now, realistically, you can't use a rainbow table on passwords of any noticeable length, and a salt may push the password over the edge of that threshold. If that's really what you want... enforce a minimum password length.

"Use of a key derivation that employs a salt makes this attack infeasible." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_table

"Salts defend against attacks that use precomputed tables (e.g. rainbow tables)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(cryptography)

Salts do nothing for people with predictable passwords though. The salt is in the dump, so I can hash known plaintext with the algorithm and the dumped data.

Even if I can only hash a million a day, if your password is one of the top million most popular, and I have a good list, I'll have your password in a day. And if you re-used it...

Salts do make naïve brute-force, all-possible-strings approaches useless, yes.

Yes, but nothing will make predictable passwords safe (at least when you have the hash). Enforcing password guidelines helps a bit.

I would be very deeply concerned if Twitch, a multi-billion dollar company owned by Amazon, does not properly hash and salt the passwords of its users.

You don't brute force it, you find the password for accounts with the same e-mail in leaks from other sites and try only those.

You can still run those "top billion popular password" lists against properly salted/hashed passwords.

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