Active noise cancellation is not for me | Hacker News Reader

Active noise cancellation is not for me

veronneau.org

20 pointspabs383 comments

ANC never cancels out the sounds I want it to. It does great at eliminating the constant hums and thrums that weren't bothering me in the first place but does nothing for the roar of engines, motors, the wind, saws, tools, etc. "Make it so I can't tell whether my house's AC is on" is not really my use case.

In my experience (Sony XM4s), while it doesn't eliminate such noises if they're loud enough, it will still significantly reduce their volume to less annoying levels.

Quieter-but-still-annoying volume levels, such as overflying aircraft or loud traffic heard through closed windows, are typically reduced to the point where they're unnoticeable.

My AirPods Pros are the best headphones I have ever had. I use ANC as my default unless there is a reason not to.

Also, pro-parenting tip: ANC earbuds without even playing anything are effectively a "turn down the volume" button on your kids screaming!

> pro-parenting tip

Uh-oh...

> ANC earbuds without even playing anything are effectively a "turn down the volume" button on your kids screaming!

That is more of a "non-parenting tip", really. The solution to screaming children is to tell them to tone it down a bit, no to isolate yourself from them. That way they not only learn something but also interact with you instead of considering you to be part of the furniture.

Source: my two daughters who can be quite noisy at times. Sometimes this is fine but they know to tone it down when they're in company of others.

I'm not suggesting using them to isolate oneself from them, just taking the edge off the noise while working to get them to tone it down as you say. It's not always as easy as just asking them as I'm sure you're aware.

I’ve always written off ANC as “fine for others, not for me”; loud children don’t bother me, I’m not an audiophile, etc.

Then I remodeled my kitchen with a friend who had a new pair of AirPod Pros. While we were sawing countless plywood boards, I had foam in my ears, he listened to podcasts; while we were sanding for hours, he listened to music. Etc.

Now I see ANC earbuds less as a comfort thing than a tool: a flexible and pocketable solution to all kinds of things that come up (ambulances, jackhammers, overhead trains). Swiss Army knives for ears.

I would be very careful about using ANC in such a noisy environment, though. It isn't necessarily eliminating the pressure waves that can cause hearing damage; depending some variables it may just be making them less perceptible to you. Which could then be making the noise more dangerous, since you're less able to judge whether it's at an acceptable level or not.

For a noisy work environment like that, I would strongly recommend you get real hearing protection with built-in headphones. I suggested Etymotic in-ear headphones elsewhere, but there are also ones that are based on over-the-ear hearing protection like is more commonly used on construction sites.

What variables are you referring to? It sounds like you are implying that ANC is just an illusion? Your eardrum/cilia/etc are either vibrating or not -- I'm not aware of any fundamental difference between that being due to cancelled waves or absorbed waves or "true silence." Could you elaborate?

For example, here's an info sheet talking about active noise canceling headphones not being an acceptable option for occupational hearing protection.

https://ehs.umass.edu/sites/default/files/Noise-Cancelling%2...

The only generally accepted way in which they might protect your hearing is by reducing the urge to crank the volume on your music too high in an effort to drown out environmental noise.

That's just stating that commercial ANC headphones aren't designed as hearing protectors, which is true enough, but that doesn't mean they don't protect your hearing compared to nothing. Here's a paper analyzing ANC designed specifically for that purpose (and indeed it starts with the premise that it's possible) https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1260/095745606776985...

Sure, but, according to the abstract (it appears fulltext is not available?), that's a device developed specifically for the task. Which is not the case for AirPods.

The difference matters. AirPods and similar devices are engineered to reduce the loudness of the sound. But hearing damage is caused by intensity, which is not the same thing. One is about how the sound is perceived, and the other is about the amount of energy being carried by the sound waves. It is possible to reduce a noise's loudness without reducing its intensity.

What technique can lower the loudness of a sound at your ear without actually decreasing the intensity? Compression and appropriately applied delay can make a recorded sound seem louder -- are you suggesting AirPods do the inverse of that?

The principle of ANC is straightforward and the textbook definition doesn't involve any psychoacoustic tricks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_noise_control. You haven't given any reason to think AirPods are doing something fundamentally different.

Look, I'm no expert on these things. The only thing I'm going on is that, when I looked into the issue, the general consensus of the people who did seem to have expertise in the field was, "look, this is a bad idea, here's why." I asked my audiologist about it, and what I've shared here is about as deep as she explained it.

I didn't ask to dig any deeper. I don't need to understand every grotty little detail of the reasoning behind my doctor's advice. I trust her to know what she's talking about when the subject is her core area of expertise.

What I do know is that it seems plausible to me. The perception of loudness is a product of a fairly complex system that involves both neural filters and sensing organs that work a very specific way, and a lot of that happens on the opposite side of the spot where the actual damage occurs in noise-induced hearing loss. I would guess that the problem is that any failure in the ANC to get the phase just right results in a waveform that's been modified such that it reduces the noise's detectability by the cochlea much more than it reduces the actual energy being carried?

That said, I would suggest you're trying to put the burden of proof on the wrong proposition. Given that AirPods are not being sold as hearing protection, and have not been tested by the EPA, one would think that we the default hypothesis should be that they are not adequate hearing protection. Especially since we're talking about people's health here. So perhaps you can come up with a study demonstrating that consumer-grade ANC such as AirPods (we have to assume that the device in the paper you linked above may not function comparably to popular consumer devices, so the study's findings may not be relevant here) can be safely used as protection from occupational noise?

A good set of Etymotics would give you more overall noise reduction while letting you listen to music, without ANC.

I’m with the author on this, ANC is too fatiguing to my ears to use. Passive noise reduction is much better.

I have two pairs of Samsung buds, both without ANC, that allow me to angle grind or run a table saw while listening to podcasts without needing to turn up the volume. The passive nose cancelation of closed IEMs with a good fit should be on par with ear plugs.

My issue is that most of the loud noises I am trying to block out are non-repeating. ANC is great for rhythmic sounds, but terrible for everything else. A blacksmith friend of mine hates ANC.

My issue now is that the newer Samsung buds all are open, to allow for better ANC. This rules them out for my use case.

I had a pair of gun range earplugs when my kids were small. Putting them in was like taking a valium some days.

ANC without anything playing is also an excellent “isolation chamber” for meditation.

Everyone is different. I have suffered from quite severe tinnitus for more than 10 years. Meanwhile, I have spent a huge proportion of my work hours in my Bose qc35 over the last three years. They are amazing and they seem to have very little impact on my inner ear issues. Meanwhile, I can play audio at a much lower volume than I would with regular headphones. This technology greatly improves my life.

I really think ANC or at least extremely good noise isolating headphones should be the norm. I'm positive that all the cheap earbuds and on-ear headphones out there have done massive damage to peoples hearing. You don't need to push the volume nearly as high if you don't have your music competing with outside audio.

A single data point, but were I've found ANC technology to be amazing is air travel. I used to be tired after a flight, even short ones. Since I got an in-ear ANC headset (Jabra in case it matters to anyone) even transatlantic flights are a breeze and I get out of the plane well rested, just like you would expect after sitting for so many hours.

> the ear pressure it creates is tolerable, but is an additional energy drain over long periods of time and eventually gives me headaches.

This is so noticeable to me (though I don't get headaches). Does everyone else who uses ANC headsets/earbuds not notice? Or they notice and it doesn't bother them?

I’ve used Sony XM4s for the past year, and XM3s before that, and never noticed this. I tend to wear them for long hours, sometimes 12+ hours a day.

The worst problem I have is a bit of neck pain after waking up when sleeping with them on all night long!

That's is why I don't use mines for more than maybe one hour per week with the NC on. In fact, a few years ago there was a tone of complaints regarding a supposed noise reduction decrease set by a new version of the firmware of different brands (iirc Sony and Bose) and I wouldn't be surprised to learn it was an attempt to reduce this kind of secondary effects.

edited for correcting my English.

For the about first month this was very noticeable to me. It's been about two years since and now I don't notice it at all.

It was extremely uncomfortable to me when I first started using them. I was surprised how much and how quickly I was able to get used to it - it only took a week or so of frequent use.

I notice the pressure and exhaustion over time, but both exist somewhat with any set of headphones. Noice cancellation almost completely negates my tinnitus, so I don’t mind the trade in comfort for that temporary relief from noise.

Noise cancellation makes my tinnitus far more obvious. When the outside noises are gone it's all that's left.

oh gods. glad I've always turned it off, this sounds horrible.

I felt this very strong in multiple generations of the Sony headphones. I own Surface Headphones 2 and they don't cause such effect on my ears.

Got the Sony WH-1000XM4 after a long wait time before jumping on the ANC wagon. Have done probably 20 hours of flight time since then - unreal how much more enjoyable travel has been from lack of fatigue from noise and reduced volume, comfort of the actual product.

Totally hear how it could also be detrimental for other people but for me its been amazing. Also at work, drones out all other noise pretty much completely except loud voices.

Only downside is that whenever I am on a call with them or someone talks to me am obviously yelling in response :P

I had a similar experience with standard ear plugs (the squishy ones that go partway in the ear) with any headphones overtop. I know it sounds weird, but you then turn up the volume slightly on the headphones and can hear the relevant stuff with all the plane noise gone. Probably terrible for music, but I am usually listening to movies or podcasts.

> Probably terrible for music

Snobby audiophile reviews should be done mid flight, naturally they will still confirm the massive difference in audio fidelity between Rhodium and Gold connectors.

A few years ago I picked up a pair of Etymotic MK5s [1], and I'm never going back. They're small enough to carry everywhere. They don't require batteries. They're much more effective at blocking out background noise. They can be used as actual hearing protection when I'm operating loud equipment. They don't have that problem where they paradoxically make some kinds of noise more noticeable. (Major exception: tinnitus.) And, unlike the simple on/off of ANC, I can control how much they block out background noise by fine-tuning how they're seated in my ear, so I can go anywhere from, "I want to listen to a podcast without blowing out my years, but I still need to be fully aware of what my kids are up to," to, "I literally cannot hear someone who is standing right in front of me and talking to me."

[1]: https://www.etymotic.com/product/mk5/

Yup wired in ear monitors and good fitting tips are the way to go. I’m a fan of comply foam tips which compress and expand to fully seal themselves.

This is the same approach used by live musicians to hear themselves over concert volume speaker arrays, well sealed IEMs attenuate background noise passively extremely well.

Passive isolation in ears are great, but unfortunately aren’t the best for everyone. I love in ears and have several pairs with different tunings, but I can’t wear them all the time, their presence tends to irritate my ear canal, to the point where I cannot tolerate them. For these cases, if I’m at home a regular closed back headphone with good isolation will be my choice, and if I’m at the office ANC over ear headphones are mandatory for me.

I had a pair of those Etymotics (maybe a previous iteration, but they looked exactly like those). I loved them, but I made the mistake of falling asleep with them in with my head propped up on my hand. When I pulled the headphones out, one of the silicone tips stayed in my ear canal. It was pushed so far down that I had to go to an ENT to get it pulled out. He said that it was not an uncommon thing for him to see. Now I won't use in-ear headphones that have any kind of detachable piece like that.

If you do not need them to be pocketable and concealable, one trick is to use headphones for drummers. One example is the Vic Firth "Stereo Isolation Headphones".

Seconded. I use the Etymtic MK5s and love them. The only challenge I found is it's hard to get replacement tips in Canada, much less other countries. The standard size is often sold out and/or delivery on Amazon costs a multiple of the product price.

Comply tips work with Etymotics as well. They’ll sit differently in your ears, but they work well.

I will echo the parent's feelings. I use the version that has a mic and despite having tried various wireless earphones I keep coming back to these for outdoor walks or video conferences. The only downside is noise from the wires.

The Airpod Pros and Airpod Max Pros definitely changed my sentitment towards active noise cancellation. Transparency is great when I want more awareness of my surroundings without having to take out my earphones. The Maxs also don't seem to have any of ear pressure that had led me to sell my Bose QC35s a couple of weeks after buying them.

Something worth noting - that fatigue some folks are noticing in their ears from ANC is probably a symptom of hearing damage. It’s much like how your ears feel “stuffy” after a rock concert - you get most of it back, but not all.

ref. https://www.asoundeffect.com/how-to-protect-your-hearing/

Rememeber, ANC is blasting the equivalent energy of your outside environment into your ears, but ideally in an inverted phase. I say ideally, because it’s based off a median set of ears (much like how a lot of stereo mixing does). The problem comes since if your ears are far from that median, you may be getting increased sound pressure due to interference in the wrong direction.

I don't see how that can be the case if the ANC is working correctly. By inverting the waveform that the headphones "hear", it cancels out what your ears hear to near-zero. If it's actually increasing sound pressure, surely you'd hear that in the form of loud unwelcome sounds (unless it's happening only at inaudible frequencies?)

One of the first applications for ANC headphones was in military headsets - specifically designed to reduce the risk of hearing damage/loss to crews operating in very loud environments (such as the M1 Abrams Tank!)

I’m sure that if your ears are in the median shape/size/sensitivity, they work perfectly well. But not everybody is.

There was a whole discussion in the past about how Dolby Atmos doesn’t work for some people, for the exact same reason.

The purpose of my comment is to say “If ANC is fatiguing your ears, stop using it”. It’s a sign of problems; of ANC not working properly for you.

You'll need a timestamp for your source mentioning noise cancelling. ANC damaging hearing sounds like nonsense to me. IEMs commonly result in similar sensations of pressure, even at safe listening levels.

It's not "ANC causes hearing damage", it's "ANC causes ringing and fatigue of the ears for some people, which are signs of hearing damage".

"Some people" is a set which the author identifies himself as, as well as others in this thread.

I'd really love anything more effective than foam earplugs for sleeping (esp. something that can block or cancel bass and thumps propagating through the walls/floor/ceiling) while still being portable.

I tried the QuietOn Sleep, but they didn't seem any better than foam earplugs (and possibly a scam - i.e. lacking any ANC at all).

Anyone knows about any such things?

I found that silicone earplug are even better for noise cancelling

I’ve got the same Sony model as the author and you do definitely know when you’ve been wearing them a long time. It’s not painful for me personally but it does sometimes feel like a relief to take them off. I got them early during lockdown and was disappointed that noise cancellation doesn’t mean silence, so my screaming kids can still get through to me. But at the same time I did have one call where my colleagues had to inform me my fire alarm was going off. Either way, I adore the headphones. I remember the delight in the early days whenever I realised there was a favourite song I’d not yet listened to on them. I’m going through that again now, having realised I can plug in a wire and listen to lossless music.

Any other QC35 owners do the right-hand-switch-on and left-hand-double-click to turn ANC off dance without thinking any more ?

ANC is useful sometimes, but I'd love the ability to default it to off on these headphones...

> Any other QC35 owners do the right-hand-switch-on and left-hand-double-click to turn ANC off dance without thinking any more ?

Glad I'm not alone!

The 'killer' feature of the QC25s compared most newer ANC headphone, was that single switch for simply turning ANC on or off.

Time for a downgrade

Not for me either. ANC gives me the feeling of holding a sea shell to my ear which makes me nauseous. My favorite headphones are still the Sony MDR-1A. I can wear those for 10 hours straight without issue.

I use ANC headphones but it seriously feels like a gimmick to me.

So ANC is great for removing car noise? I don't really need it, prefer to hear the oncoming traffic.

Oh they help for aeroplane engine hum? Well, it's not really bothering me. Quite the opposite, helping me fall asleep more easily and cover other, more annoying noises in the plane.

Now, if some manufacturer could produce a comfortable headphones that block human speech and laughter, and more importantly toddler noises, I would be first in queue to buy them.

I agree that blocking human sounds would be the best thing ever, but noise cancellation is still good for allowing you to keep audio turned down lower. When competing with other background noise it's very easy to push the volume higher than is good for your ears.

Also, if by hearing the oncoming traffic you mean that you've tried ANC headphones while driving: please don't wear any sort of headphones when operating a vehicle. Music is already distracting, cutting off the world on top of that is even worse. And also likely to be illegal. Even if not specifically called out in law, there's a good chance it will be considered distracted driving.

> Also, if by hearing the oncoming traffic you mean that you've tried ANC headphones while driving

I don't drive. I meant avoiding being hit by a car because of the tire noise being cancelled.

I find it so weird when you sit in a room that sounds silent and you put the ANC headphones on and it sounds even quieter!

Does this mean there is a tonne of sub-sonic noise that we don't conciously hear but we do notice when it is taken away by noise cancelling or is it just the headphones reducing the pressure on the eardrum so it sounds quieter?

Reverse for me... The white noise "floor" on my Sony ones is very audible and pretty annoying after some time.

More probably, it's the fact that when you're presented with a constant background noise, your brain begins to filter it out. Your perception of the noise level can be very different than the actual noise level.

> Does this mean there is a tonne of sub-sonic noise that we don't conciously hear

This is especially true if you live in a city. You often don't notice noise pollution but it has very significant long-term impacts on human health.

>Does this mean there is a tonne of sub-sonic noise that we don't conciously hear

yep, not unlike background radiation.

ANC earbuds (Bose QuietComfort 20) transformed motorcycle rides for me. Now I can either enjoy quiet ride, or listen and actually hear music without raising volume to 140%. Can't figure out why no one is building ANC speakers that can be fitted to motorcycle helmets, or why are helmet manufacturers not jumping on ANC train.

Most helmets do not integrate electronics or sound. Instead, they contain small recessed areas behind the lining for you to put two speakers that attach to your choice of sound system (e.g. a bluetooth headset with mesh intercom).

This is a simple way to divide the expertise between two firms who specialize in different things. Integrating noise-cancelling electronics into the product itself is not this simple. Bell Helmets doesn't employ firmware engineers.

I get that, but not even Sena or Cardo offer ANC.

I've always been wary of ANC in traffic, even as pedestrian. What if you don't hear the ambulance coming through, or the crash happening nearby?

At highway speeds, you can’t hear an ambulance until it’s on top of you either. Your eyes are much more valuable while in traffic than your ears ever will be.

Dumb question from a non-biker - does that not present a danger to the motorcyclist? Do you not rely on your hearing to stay safe?

Noise cancellation does not kill all sounds. Kills mostly wind and tire noise. Horns and other high pitch sounds pass through.

Human voices and, especially, the loud and intrusive voices of radio/TV announcers, are conspicuously not well filtered by ANC. It should be possible to 'train' the device to filter out, let's say, the sudden abrasive voice of a coworker.

Unfortunately that is not how ANC works.

ANC = Active Noise Cancelation

Noise is rather objective here...

Its noises like droning sounds, like a machine or background noises like traffic or inside a train and airplane.

I use ANC on my AirPods Pro for multiple hours a day (pretty much my default) and have never gotten a headache - so when ANC users on other brands complain about that, I have to admit I don’t know what that’s like.

I enjoy mine but trying to wear them for long periods of time or overnight was not great for my ears (they are more airtight than normal headphones, which seems to exacerbate ear infections or other damage)

The last time I had to use these it was before the pandemic. Now that I can WFH, the issue is non-existent. But I do remember the constant struggle, micro-interruptions and headaches. Glad it's gone.

I turn it off immediately I find the "pressure" it applies to my eardrums to be at the very least uncomfortable if not painful

I think we would all prefer a quiet environment over needing active noise cancellation, but not everyone has that luxury.

ANC is not the only option for attenuating sound. It’s not even the best option, due to how many people get fatigue from them.

The pressure / motion sickness phenom is real; some people just can't take ANC in an over-ear headphone at all.

Fortunately for me, I'm not one of them. I got some lower-end Sennheisers on a lark a while back, and found them AMAZING for use on planes. You don't realize how draining the plane's white noise is until it goes away, let me tell you. It was like a breath of fresh air.

I had, for years, poo-pooed the idea of ANC vs. high-end in-ear monitor type headphones based on an imperfect understanding of how to measure sound isolation; I was just WRONG.

I have a bit of a headphone acquisition problem, I admit. While I still have those Sennheisers, I also have the AirPods Pro (which are great for many things, but not really sufficient for airplane duty -- OTOH, they completely mask the noise of my bicycle trainer) and the AirPods Max (which are better than the Sennheisers in every way).

The Max are expensive, but sound far better than any headphone I have except MAYBE the $400 wired pair of Sennheisers I have in my office. They're in another league. The white noise is gone, but so is most conversation around you, or other incidental noises, or whatever. Pre-COVID, I worked in hotel lobbies and coffeeshops doing very focussed work without distraction, which is pretty great.

I'll also say this, which I found kind of hilarious. I recently bought some of those bone-conduction headphones (AfterShockz) for use when gravel cycing (no cars to worry about there). They don't even go in your ears; they sit your skull just outside the ear canal, and work pretty darn well. Their WHOLE REASON TO EXIST is that they DO NOT block external sounds, so they're safer to wear when running or cycling or whatever.

However, so that you can still use them in other contexts where you might want to block out sounds, they ship with some earplugs. Ha!

Anyone have any recommendations for non-ANC wireless over-ear headphones?

I'm a fan of the ATH-M50x, with a seperate Bluetooth adapter. I like having a clean signal path as an option :)

thx

And why would anyone care?

I'm very pleased to discover that I'm not the only one who dislikes ANC!

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