Most people would agree an imperfect attempt with lots of transparency is better than no attempt at all.
The first thing you learn in journalism is that you can't be 100% objective, even if you're 100% truthful.
Let's say you're reporting on Obama's birth certificate, and you write 20 pages of a deep dive into where he was born and all the evidence for it. You are complete and thorough, and you end up concluding that he couldn't have been born in Kenya.
Just the fact that you wrote that much to debunk a nonsensical, evidence-free lie is actually going to make it seem like they had evidence!
You can also neglect to report on things. You can report on 150 burglaries a day and give people the impression that burglaries are skyrocketing when they aren't.
So of course there will be subjectivity that leaks out, but that's not something we should fear to the point of giving up.
Nobody wants or needs the media - even less social media - as proxy-judges of the information. Everbody just wants the information and judge it for themselves.
That is because most of the time, fact-control becomes opinion-control and we see exactly this happening just before our eyes.
Thus people on either side of the political spectrum will support the suppressing of the opinion of their political opposition.
At the moment this is happening with the evidently unholy coalition between the left and big tech as well as big media. Another unholy coalition is big pharma + governance and big media where anything slightly critical of certain vaccines will get insta-banned on Youtube for example.
May I suggest that you only support this behaviour as it currently happens to align with your views?
This seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the basics of journalism. The primary job of journalists is to filter through the events and facts of the day and tell you what is important. Judgement of information is inherent to the job. The top story on the front page of the newspaper is chosen by editors not by random draw. They put it there because they think it is the most important bit of news in the entire paper. There is no way to make that kind of qualitative judgements on the relative importance of different pieces of news without inserting potential bias.
People may say they want this, but manifestly do not. There is too much information.
To illustrate: many people I know cared a great deal about whether the country was lied to about WMDs when we went to Iraq. As far as I know, zero of them have read the report by the Senate Intelligence Committee[0] but all were very glad to have the report summarized for them by the news media.
That act of summarizing, of picking out which information is and is not important, is itself an act of journalism. It is the curation of the set of shared facts, shared reality, in the public discourse.
[0]https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/publ...
Exactly, I'm totally with you. That is the essence of journalism I would even say. But that is where the job of the journalist ends, no sprinkling in of their own presuppositions.
It's impossible for presuppositions not to seep into journalism, especially in a capitalist system where clickbait, outrage news etc. sells better than plain retelling of facts.
Government run news organizations with no profit motive have a very sorry record.
I'd like to be more specific than "a huge proportion" but it's hard because I've mostly read the more widely shared and thus sensationalist stories, which will have much bigger distortions on average.
(Social) media fact-checking also often becomes a form of silent censorship.
First, fact-checkers don't just publish fact-checks. They also work behind the scenes at the "high end" newspapers that you mention.
Second, websites like Snopes originally appeared to fact-check things like chain emails, memes, and other rumors. Mainstream news sites now do this to some extent, but there's still not a 100% overlap.
Also, sometimes there just isn't a story to a fact-check. The reader just wants to see a check of all the facts in a political speech or a debate. A series of 100 bullet points is not a compelling article, but it might be a perfectly fine fact-check.
Why? What's the difference? Analysis of a political speech or debate is definitely the kind of thing I expect from newspapers or equivalent, and it's not like changing the name makes it easier to read.
Not sure I would trust high end newspapers either, in Germany we had a small scandal with Claas Relotius who received over a dozen awards for outstanding journalism. Most of his articles where more fiction than fact. The newspapers publishing his articles outright ignored any complaints by his victims and even the papers claiming to have "world class" fact checkers didn't bother to review the output of high profile authors. It seems that to journalists anything is fine as long as it captures the attention of their target audience.
This is what Facebook fact checkers are??
They have hearings that go on public record and can be appealed up to a federal level?
Judges interpret the law, not current events. This comparison seems pretty meaningless.
The most that fact-checkers do when they are egregiously and utterly incorrect is a correction to an eye-rolling "needs context" label.
The standards of objectivity of fact-checkers (who are all left-leaning partisans) are ridiculously slanted. One set of strict standards for my opposition, another set of lax, wink-wink standards for myself - modern day "fact-checking". Any criticism of the same that becomes popular results in being banned.
To anyone for whom facts that don't agree with their worldview are signs of a conspiracy, fact checking is pointless anyway. All fact checks that show they're wrong are just "proof" of the conspiracy.
There's little need for a conspiracy here, just the Red Tribe distrust of institutions making them less likely to support fact checkers. And fact checkers get their money either from donations or from ads/clicks, so the incentive structure will push them left as that's the only way to survive in a competitive environment.
The limitations of objective fact-checking means we need to understand where we can/should apply it, and its efficacy are limited.
Judges or a legal system are a good example. These are also truth finding institutions. They are very expensive institutions, and produce a very limited stream of narrow truths. That's because truth finding is, as you say, difficult.
Law is an extremely limited system. We (in theory) apply it as little as possible, when other solutions have failed. The system is set up to verify or falsify claims as narrowly as possible to find this solution. Law has specifically defined truth categories like "reasonable doubt," and other rules about how to lean in cases of ambiguity.
The evidence for "person X killed person Y" may be sufficient to acquit person Z of a murder, but not to convict person X.
Fact checking can be used as a tool that newspaper editors use to maintain quality. It doesn't do the same thing in a different context. Fact checking at a newspaper, in wikipedia or for social media is a totally different thing with different limitations and applicability.
> Let's say you're reporting on Obama's birth certificate, and you write 20 pages of a deep dive into where he was born and all the evidence for it. You are complete and thorough, and you end up concluding that he couldn't have been born in Kenya.
Works perfectly fine for personal fact checking. You can do it like this. If it's being done in court, an editors's office, a wikipedia discussion page or FB's version of mechanical turk for moderators.... you will need a different method.
I don't see how that conclusion is drawn at all. The legal system is run by highly trained individuals in as public a way as possible, bounded by its own set of standard laws and procedures, to very specific sets of issues, often times throwing out cases because they are not "resolvable" by the narrow capabilities of the system.
To compare a random anonymous person behind closed doors spitting out a "fact check" on their laptop to judges is an insult to judges and the legal system.
I can't help but feel that people who have their bias confirmed by the title rarely bother to read past it + the big red "False!"
I’ve grown to realise that this is not only intentional because it is harder to disprove, but also people tend to be more emotional than statistical so having an emotional argument tends to resonate and get shared on social media with far greater prevalence than statistical memes.
With the scientific studies, we see here on HN all the time how studies, viewed from various angles, can be contentious and not easy to decide with certainty about.
And surprisingly, quotes and "what I saw" situations often do get remembered differently for two people observing the same event. There's a lot of room here for some seemingly simple facts to be very difficult to know the actual fact of.