New leukemia treatment "exceeded our wildest expectations"
msnbc.msn.com
msnbc.msn.com
"Both the National Cancer Institute and several pharmaceutical companies declined to pay for the research. Neither applicants nor funders discuss the reasons an application is turned down. But good guesses are the general shortage of funds and the concept tried in this experiment was too novel and, thus, too risky for consideration."
The keywords are "experiment was too novel, and thus, too risky for consideration". Unfortunately, this seems to have become the rule rather than the exception in scientific research. All the young folks (pre-tenure) are on a treadmill to get funding and publish something in the top journals/conferences. I wish there was some accountability in the system ... the geniuses who rejected funding this research will go about completely unaffected.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/health/research/28cancer.h...
Thankfully these researchers were able to take some big risks and prove out the theory in a fairly successful trial.
Of course, there is no conspiracy here. It's just the human tendency to rationalize when money is involved. Imagine you run a pharmaceutical company: Your products save lives, right? You want to be able to continue saving lives, so you have to stay profitable. And to stay profitable, you have to make good investments. Products that are used in long-term treatments are good investments. One-time cures aren't.
Also not advocating there is some conspiracy going on here.
The person paying for the cure, usually and insurance company, wants it to be as cheap as possible.
The person selling the cure is probably not the same between the two treatment scenarios.
The hospital administering the treatments might have a motive, but they aren't involved in the decisions about whether to go ahead with research.
I think a company would be hard-pressed to have a pill that cures cancer -- letting millions die each year, because the pill costs $100k. I think there's a non-trivial possibility that the gov't would take that drug for its own uses.
Is there precedent for such a thing?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18490388/ns/health-aids/t/brazil...
Apparently when the negotiations broke down (Brazil wanted the same rate as Thailand but Merck wanted to charge them more), Brazil declared sovereign property rights in the good of it's citizens.
http://www.fool.com/news/2001/bayzf011025.htm
This was for Cipro for Anthrax. Bayer, at the last minute, gave in to some pricing concessions. There's also been talks about it happening during some H1N1 and avian flu scares.
A $100k pill that cures cancer? I'm not saying it would be taken by the gov't, but I think you'd have to seriously consider it.
Today it is the one treatment that is fully covered by the government for everyone. I would imagine something similar would occur here.
The main impediment: free-loading companies could take advantage of the companies funding the research. One solution would be to start a patent pool, making their inventions freely available to all the companies participating in funding the research.
A senator (Bernie Frank maybe, not sure) recently introduced a bill to tax insurance companies and apply the funds for medical research. That'd be another way to fix the freeloader problem, but then you're stuck with the government choosing the research, and it tends to be overly conservative.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-baker/bernie-sanders-trie...
Opinions differ as to why that is - I personally suspect the grants system that is used for funding science.
I worked in cancer research with some really, really smart people. Every single one of them was sincerely hopeful that the drug they were working on would be a total cure. I know it's hard to believe, but pharma companies are composed of real people who have seen patients, friends, and relatives die of cancer or similar diseases. Researchers want so badly to find a cure for the disease they are working on. The existence of vaccines are proof that when pharma companies can cure something, they do it. I have been in conversations where business factors for a drug were discussed and I can tell you the one thing that was never said was, "Hey guys, make sure it's not an actual cure, or we'll need to kill the project".
A commenter on Slashdot gave another good point on why the industry HAS a reason to develop a cure for cancer:
If any "Big Pharma" company invented a cure for cancer tomorrow, you can bet your ass that they'd be all over it in a heartbeat.
Why? Because, then that company would forever be known as the company that cured cancer. Every new product they make would be a pot of gold. Every ad they put out would be "Muhdikard, a new treatment for erectile dysfunction, from Drugco. We cured cancer.". Every drug company on the face of the planet would kill for that kind of marketing, not to mention the money from selling the cancer cure.
Source: http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2375188&cid=...
I recognize that the argument I made earlier is something of an old saw. But you and I both know that businesses on the scale of most pharma companies are not run only by researchers and engineers, and that the explicit reasons for business decisions anywhere often stem from any number of unspoken ones. I don't imagine even the coldest of bean counters ever says "we need to make sure this research doesn't lead to a cure," and I doubt such a black-and-white assessment of a complex R&D process even occurs to them. But incentives are incentives, and humans are masters of rationalization.
I'm heartened to learn that your teams never felt pressure to put business interests ahead of patient interests. I sincerely hope your experience is common.
There is also a practical reason why I can assure you that people are usually swinging for the fences, especially in cancer: most of the time you don't even know if a drug will work, let alone work well. There is no way to predict (with the obvious exception of vaccines which owing to biology are destined to be cures from the beginning) what your drug will really do until it hits the clinic. So there isn't even a mechanism to offer people an incentive to develop a drug someone has to take over and over vs. a cure, especially in cancer. Certainly, there are chronic conditions like diabetes where there is no real "cure" on the horizon because of the biology of the situation. But in the case of cancer, you almost have to try for a total success because you know you're likely to get far, far less than that when you hit the clinic. Because of this problem, one of the bigger issues in pharma is that flawed projects are allowed to linger long after they should have just been scrapped because powerful scientists believed they would work and convinced management to keep funding them despite some of their issues.
"If we had a cure for cancer, do you think we'd be letting our family die of it?"
I worked for 2.5 years in a finance firm which specialized primarily in biotech stocks. (We were on the "sell side", meaning our clients were hedge funds and mutual funds, and our product was research reports advising whether to buy or sell the stock of certain biotech companies.)
Without fail, the biggest catalysts for moving the stock price were study results, and the better the results, the bigger the jump. Every company absolutely wants that blockbuster drug that cures a disease.
With CLL, for instance, as in the article, there are a number of treatments, in 1st line and 2nd line after relapse, 3rd line, and so on. And doctors prescribe this one or that one, depending on context and what side effects you can tolerate, etc. If your drug is a complete cure and you can jump straight to first line and everyone prescribes your treatment, then that's a gold mine.
A recent example is Cougar Biotechnology, whose cancer drug abiraterone was so insanely successful the company's stock price rocketed and then was acquired shortly thereafter by Johnson & Johnson.
Lastly, if you finished reading the article, you'd see this part:
"With results for the three patients published Wednesday simultaneously in the New England Journal of Medicine and Science Translational Medicine, money for further studies -- not just in this one type of leukemia, but in other cancers -- will likely pour in from both the government and drug companies."
So, if you had a fairly reliable (at achieving remission) injection, and especially one without the terrible side effects, you should be able to charge at least $400k.
Please inform me which pharmaceutical company would not like an $18 billion/year revenue stream.
When Michael Milken got out of prison, he was diagnosed with prostate cancer, and started a foundation to fight it. He asked researchers for the crazy ideas they really wanted to work on, and got the money to them in three months. In return, he insisted researchers immediately share what they learned. No patents, no waiting for prestigious publication.
According to Fortune, people in the field generally credit Milken's foundation with cutting prostate cancer death rates in half.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2004/...
If this is true, it's crime we have not reproduced Milken's strategy for all deadly diseases.
The good news is, these guys should have no trouble getting funding now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Gelsinger
Speaking of radical therapies, this also reminded me of this New Yorker article I read years ago:
http://www.michaelspecter.com/2001/02/the-outlaw-doctor/
Every time I recall this, I mean to lookup whatever became of this guy. Finally did. A bit of a follow-up here:
A test of his protocol, published in 2009, found that Gonzalez's patients died faster than those treated with conventional chemotherapy, and had significantly worse quality of life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Gonzalez_%28physician%...
First off, at the end of the article it says "Supported in part by grants from the National Institutes of Health (K24 CA11787901, 1PN2-EY016586, and R01CA120409), the Alliance for Cancer Gene Therapy, and the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society (7000-02)." So the funding system was working as expected.
It also looks like people have been trying this for a long time and for various reasons it has actually not worked very well. This paper is noteworthy not because they used the HIV modified T-cells. It's noteworthy because people have been banging their heads against this specific brick wall for a long time and coming up empty-handed. The key innovation appears to be the addition of extra machinery that made the T-cells more potent and also the ability for the T-cells to hang around and expand in the patient.
Also, to give people a sense of how much time something like this takes. This specific viral mechanism was tested by the same group in mice first and published in August of 2009 (open access: http://www.nature.com/mt/journal/v17/n8/full/mt200983a.html)
(I hope no one is offended by my quite flimsy grasp of medicine and the human body)
"More good news stems from the fact that the modified cells remain in the body and have been seen to reactivate and kill new cancer cells as long as 12 months after they were first injected."
Incredible stuff :)
Like you, I'm unclear on what exactly the side-effects are here. If they boost the B-cell count in the patient, do they risk re-introducing lukemia? Are these "serial killer" white blood cells a general immunosupressant? There was a part of the article about a developed resistance in the B-cells that I didn't understand.
Either way pretty amazing, and it sounds like while the patient had the worst flu of his life for five days, it's way better than chemo
Wonder how they handled its affinity for mutation? That was the big hurtle.
EDIT: xd corrected me. They did it in vitro. Which explains how they got around the FDA.
Granted, the odds of this translating to a plague of aggressive carnivores rather than dead quadraplegics are low, but if I were a novelist, I'd sequester myself in the attic and bang out a best-seller.
This idea has been around a hell of a lot longer than 10 years. Looks like you were late to the party. There also isn't a particular need to use HIV to do this in the general case either, the purpose of virii in general is to inject DNA into existing organisms.
[1] http://www.medpagetoday.com/Genetics/GeneralGenetics/6275
So wouldn't it be impossible (and possibly extremely dangerous) to attempt to change many traits by performing in-situ DNA rewrites?
As I understand the current research, its focussed on 'fixing' problems where one link of the chain is broken. So when a specific set of enzymes are missing (think lactose intolerance) or immunodeficiencies.
Wholesale rewriting chunks of DNA would, as far as I can tell, likely kill the patient. That being said, the potential gain for some to have larger changes to their DNA will no doubt compel someone to try it. A biologist that gave a tech talk at Google on the technology said he had received calls from althetic trainers asking about how his work might be applied to other areas. He was convinced that there was already some efforts at using gene therapy to 'improve' some athletes capabilities.
Ok, so what has happened after the article was printed the first time?
EDIT: ok, looks like it was just an error by msnbc. It does seem fresh: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MED_GENE_THERAPY_L...
I always thought the entire cancerous tissue would be no more than 1/8 pound.
This is why I changed the title after a little nudge, to avoid people getting the wrong end of the stick.
You can expect to live for a decade or two at more or less your current lifestyle until near the very end, while with aggressive forms of cancer we're talking more about months of extreme pain and suffering.
If you (a) use protection and (b) are taking medicine as prescribed, however, even the risk of infecting someone else isn't that high. Your viral load remains very low; I remember a study in Switzerland that suggested that two HIV-discordant monogamous partners engaging in anal sex aren't at significant risk of seroconversion even without a condom, if the HIV-positive partner uses his drugs at prescribed and there aren't compounding factors like STDs. Which isn't to say it's a good idea.
It's definitely a trade I'd make in a second, though. Then again, I've seen people waste away from leukemia and not from AIDS, so my perspective is admittedly skewed.
Edited to add: that study is most definitely not a license to have unprotected sex with someone who has HIV. Just to be clear.
Also, 3 patients isn't statistically significant. Having this in the national media is going to cause mass confusion in the general public. There needs to be many more studies on this therapy before it's actually used as a treatment.
However, that wasn't my original point. This therapy is obviously at a very early stage. Headlines like this in the lay media are extremely misleading to the general public, because a majority of people will not take the time to read or understand the entirety of the article.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aouT6EMJh8#t=00m21s
(The distracting leading quote and music has been added by the uploader... but I can't find an alternate clip of this set-up scene that also includes the important cut to 'three years later' at the end.)
Great! No greedy corporation to patent it and sell off the method at overpriced rates.
My father died of type 2 non hodkins lymphoma in 1997 when I was 17; he was sick for 4 years from two rounds of lymphoma, plus a marrow transplant. Every time I read about advances like this I feel bad about wasting my life building better advertising instead of doing biomed. I just wish biomed paid better wages -- I much more than doubled my income by leaving a wetlab and doing advertising instead. It's a lesson in what our society really values. And now I feel like Steve Yegge.
This bothers me greatly.
I don't want to threadjack, but are any HN'ers aware of discussion elsewhere about what concerned members of society who do value biomed progress more strongly than most, but who don't have Milken-level money might be able to do to promote faster progress?
I'd be very interested in exploring how YC-like entrepreneurial energy could be unleashed on improving human health, and would be willing to chip in.
http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2010/12/peter-thiel-encou...
In short big philanthropy needs a component that looks a lot like the venture capital industry, and doesn't currently have it. Lots of smaller, big risk, potentially game changing bets rather than stultifying into safe big-budget, incremental institutional irrelevance.
In this case, for example, this research was rescued from years further of oblivion by a funding source that was willing to take a risk.
Much thinking has taken place on this. You might look at some of Aubrey de Grey's early publications on the triangular log jam for example:
http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2004/06/the-curious-case-...
Product cycle is much slower in the biomed industry and much more expensive. Potential financial gains are high, but risk is also very high. Even getting started in this industry means a hefty investment is necessary.
In short, not really suitable for a YC-like incubator. At least not at this point.
Usually you have to pay brain surgeons and CEOs orders of magnitude more money to take those jobs, when normally they might prefer to live off the glory of cleaning up after slobs.
Not to be a jerk, but it's about what _you_ value. If you value money (or lifestyle, or whatever drew you to advertising) over whatever you were doing previously, you've had your way. If you don't, you have the choice to go back.
Don't feel bad about not working in the right industry; just remember that there are thousands of ways to help progress the state of the art, raise money or awareness for those progressing the state of the art, or even just helping people and their families dealing with cancers.
I don't work in a philanthropic job. I would like to, but value the financial stability of something further removed from pure altruism.
In practice, we spend $31B or so on the NIH [1], but we have $170B in fiscal year 2010 [2] for Iraq and Afghanistan, plus all the tail costs involved.
[1] http://www.nih.gov/about/director/budgetrequest/NIH_BIB_0209...
I'm generalizing, but It seems as if institutions who have made a living researching treatments to major diseases don't seem that interested in cures. That could threaten their existence. So they put their money in providing hospital services instead of research. They can't get government money for research grants if their idea for research seems too unorthodox.
In the end, it's about protecting jobs and finding a way for you to live longer with the disease.
As is always the refrain, the system is broken - if what you want is cures instead of a large and lucrative pharmaceutical industry.
It seems patently obvious to me that the structure of our pharmaceutical system encourages maintenance doses over cures, and I'm not sure what about that would provoke at least four people to take action not to see it.
PS: People talk about drug companies funding research, but mostly they just do refinements and late stage clinical trials. They have minimal impact on the type of research that actually discovers how things work or the basic ideas for how to fix things and if a cure for a major ailment was possible they would jump on even a modest cash cow.
I remain convinced that funds could be allocated somewhat better. In this as in so very many other things.
And, by the way, you have not refuted grandparent at all. Much on the contrary, you have only ratified that you have chosen money and lifestyle over working on something you believe in. I don't think gp was judging you for that, only saying that was indeed your choice.
The two aren't incompatible. He chose the money. If society truly valued medical research, he wouldn't have had to make that choice -- the money would be in medical research.
I did join a stem cell related company from their beginnings. It was cool to see it grow thinking I was doing good, until I realized at least in my case it was more about making the owners money rather than finding cures for these kind of diseases.
Quitting the day job and switching to biomed maybe could help, but I believe instead there's a need to start something more radical rather than being +1 cog.
But yeah, lots of politicians will complain.