Exodus: Israeli Army's Elite Programmers Head to Silicon Alley | Hacker News Reader

Exodus: Israeli Army's Elite Programmers Head to Silicon Alley

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65 pointsnitashatiku29 comments

There should a be very good reason why you would want to relocate your developers from Israel to the US.

Marketing guys? Sure, assuming you're in media or consumer web. You need your salespeople as close to the customer as possible. But why move your R&D to the US?

Developers wages in Israel are not even close to what a dev in the valley, or in NYC can make. Junior devs start out at 15K NIS/month ($4250) and the cream of the crop can make up to 30K NIS/month ($8500). Totaling to anything between $50K and $100K yearly. What does that get you in the valley?

Not only that, I would venture to say that finding the tech talent in Israel is easier. The mentality in the startup scene here is still not a cut-throat one. If you look hard enough, you can find the right devs you need.

Having said that, the startup scene in Israel still isn't as vibrant as you would think, at least when it comes to consumer web. The classic strengths of the Israeli tech scene have always been security, enterprise, IT and hardware. Consumer web? Google-scale? We're not there yet.

The ease of finding developers in Israel is the reason why a lot of the companies I talked to (Outbrain, BillGuard, Taykey), started by folks out of the IDF, take the hybrid approach: keeping their R&D arm in Israel, and biz dev sales here. They can't afford/worry about not finding developer talent in NYC. But they move here to get close to their customers, like you said.

Terrific. The most paranoid country on earth after North Korea, now with direct access to all kinds of social network data. This will certainly pan out well.

What is the cost of living there and the income tax rates? A 1 bedroom apartment around Palo Alto and places close to it can cost something like $1800/month. Just in rent alone you can 'make' an extra $12k-24k per year in rent savings if a 1 bedroom is $800 in Haifa.

Funny you mention it, Israel is going through some serious protests right now about the ridiculous living costs [1].

This thread is too small to encompass the entire debate, but basically taxes, social security, mandatory health insurance and employee participation in 401k equivalents end up chewing away about 40-45% of said salaries.

Living in Tel Aviv is roughly 70% the cost of living in NYC (measured by rent prices). And remember that we make much less than NYers. Living in Haifa, for example, is practically impossible if you want to commute to Tel Aviv. Public transportation is horrible in Israel.

[1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_housing_protests_in_Israel

Why would you want to commute from Haifa to Tel Aviv? Just get an apartment in Tel Aviv.

I used to rent a 1100sq ft 2br for $350 next to Ben Gurion University in Beer-Sheva a couple years back

I have a friend who's currently renting a great 1br right in the middle of Tel Aviv (near Dizengof) for ~$600

Dev salaries are largely in the range mentioned by yuvadam, may be a bit on the high end, many engineers and normal (non-eng) people are making less than 10k NIS/month

There are tons of HW engineering jobs in FPGA, VHDL, ASIC design, telecom, RF, optics, embedded, may be even more than pure software jobs. If you work for IBM, Intel, Cisco R&D in the Wadi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Wadi ) you're likely to make up to ~80-90k/y as a senior (non-managing) engineer with >10y of experience.

It's really a mecca for hardware startups, much more active than Silicon Valley in that domain (historically due to military contracts); if you're looking for top engineers to design a VLSI system-on-chip or some super-smart router, or a smartphone or something, I'd probably search there first.

If you have solid former programming experience (i.e. from certain units in the Army, or Basmach) you could easily (well, for different values of easy ;) find a full time job north of 25K NIS per month.

edit: 600$ for a good 1BR? (an apartment, not a room) When is his lease due to end? (I'm serious, if you don't mind me asking and he's not set on renewing :)

she doesn't want to move out, it's a good deal:)

Not only that, you're not slumming it in Haifa-- it's a beautiful city with a great beach, restaurants, and culture of its own. I met my wife in Haifa; one night we walked around Mt. Carmel and Baha'i Gardens (one of the most beautiful gardens I've visited). Wonderful place to live.

That said, you can't compare it to the more urban atmosphere of Tel Aviv.

I don't want to start an argument about it, but it's hard to call Haifa comparable to Tel Aviv when it comes to the number of quality restaurants, night life, events, etc. (IMHO of course, but I think I'm in the consensus ;)

I would even say it's true culture-wise (the main Israeli theaters are in Tel Aviv, the Israeli Opera, main dance ensembles).

I'm only mentioning this for any non-Israeli who thinks of living in Israel. Public transport is pretty bad between the cities for daily commuting and I would advise researching residency options pretty carefully and not just automatically go the "short distance and cheap" route.

Oh, I wouldn't compare Haifa to Tel Aviv; that's an apples/oranges comparison. Haifa is less metropolitan to be sure, but it has a certain charm. It's hardly provincial, though. A great mixed-culture city. Haifa University and the Technion are there, as well as Google and MSFT offices.

I also wonder if there is any startup scene in Jerusalem.

Also: Yahoo, Intel, IBM, Philips, Qualcomm.

The only one missing all the fun now is Facebook :)

FB acquired Israeli Snaptu (though they not located in Haifa)

http://www.snaptu.com/a/facebook

http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/tel-aviv...

And while I don't see Palo Alto there: http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/tel-aviv...

The biggest problem I've seen with Israel as a non-Israeli is that it's really difficult to get connected into their tech scene as an outsider. It's especially difficult for non-white people (security will focus on Indian/Pakistani or slightly less on East Asians), making the whole process more painful. (I know a couple people with capital and tech skills who were interested in working with Israeli startups, got a little bit of the way, and then decided to leave due to discrimination and exclusion.)

The best way would probably be to have an Israeli cofounder or high-level employee who comes with his own connections from past IDF service.

The other problem I have with Israeli tech people is they are very Microsoft heavy.

I think the Microsoft heavy part is changing a bit. Starting with the IDF programming units mentioned in the article switching over to new languages that have gained traction. As well when start-ups pivoting into the consumer web. Avner Amit from Taykey was telling me they switched over to open source once they got to the US because they saw how popular it was. Israel has strong MS developers because MS has a strong presence. Historically its made sense to work in .NET

I looked into what it would take to get an Israeli work visa as a WASP American a few years ago. I can't remember the details, but essentially it was so prohibitive that I couldn't consider it.

Is it just me or is this the worst title I've ever seen for a post? Compare to the article title: "Israeli Start-Ups Skip the Valley, Go Direct to New York"

I've always admired JetBrains' approach to development and marketing. Most of their core development is done in Russia by exceedingly talented developers who do not have to relocate and can be close to their friends and family.

JetBrains is well known for their IntelliJ editor.

http://www.jetbrains.com/company/people/team.html

How does one setup a US branch of a foreign company? Who does the setting up? At what point do US citizens need to be involved?

To me that's the interesting aspect of the article. Taykey has US investors, is that the key? What's stopping an Indian or Chinese company from doing the same?

More interestingly, are these so-called Israeli companies actually US companies from the getgo? Does that make them more acquirable or floatable?

Well someone who's been working for a foreign company, if they've been working in for a managerial position for a year+ can come in on a L1-A visa to establish the new office/branch. (And it has to be an actual multi-person company, not someone who's self employed).

>But the ICQ sale illustrates the problem Israelis are now trying to address, namely that there simply haven’t been enough boffo success stories like it.

Surprised not to see Quigo (another AOL exit, actually) mentioned here...especially since I know of at least two Outbrain people with Quigo roots.

Isn't everyone ex-IDF (except for the orthodox)?

Generally speaking yes[1], but not everyone serves as a programmer. This is (at least in theory) the basis for the group the article talks about.

[1] Exempt status is given for the ultra orthodox, arabs[1.1] and people with major physical or mental health issues. There are probably some fringe ways I forgot/don't know about, but these are the major ones.

[1.1] historically the IDF only fought Arab nations/groups, so it does make sense not to make it mandatory to fight your own people (if you view it that way). The fact that they can't volunteer however... It is possible to volunteer to an alternative civil service though (or just not to volunteer, up to the individual)

What sort of work visas do these guys get?

I wouldn't be surprised if many of them were born in the US.

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