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Comment by swiley | Hacker News Reader

Do not cary smartphones.

Dumbphones have the exact same problem, due to carrier-based location tracking tied to phone number.

Not nearly to the same degree of confidence/precision and without easy access by Google/Apple/Facebook/Advertising networks to this data.

They are accurate to the tower which is far too accurate for comfort.

Possibly more accurate, due to triangulation between multiple towers.

Way way more accurate than to the tower, even more accurate than just using triangulation alone these days.

For someone as active on HN as you, I’m surprised you don’t know of the numerous stories in the past about carriers selling location data to advertising networks and the numerous cases where the raw data has leaked publicly via careless aggregators[0]. Like even Congress got fired up on it at the time because of leaks, but you can be assured it’s still happening[2] despite claims otherwise.

As to the precision argument, US cell carriers can locate you to within 150ft easily in a city / populated area (and are required to be able to by the FCC[1]). They don’t just depend on multiple tower triangulation, but use much more advanced techniques (can provide sources if asked). Back in 2017 multiple carriers were demonstrating to my then employer how they could generally even determine what floor you were on in a building within a range of 4-5 floors. Apparently now the FCC mandates it to be within 10ft[1] vertical accuracy now in the top 25 markets.

The same PRS system that tracks a UEs precise location for E911 / law enforcement / government use / etc is also used on tracking the general usage of any customer of the carriers all the time.

[0] one story among many from back then: https://www.engadget.com/2018-06-19-verizon-stop-selling-cus...

[1] https://www.fcc.gov/public-safety-and-homeland-security/poli...

[2] https://www.locationsmart.com/

I wonder if it’s actually possible to prevent fingerprinting of a radio transmitter (aside from active measures like intentionally sending out noise broadcasts periodically): it seems to me that a clever enough adversary with two or three receivers could fingerprint all the devices in the area based on transmission patterns and locate/identify individuals. Combined with CCTV or other data, this could even be sufficient to pinpoint irl identities.

You could easily accidentally make it easier rather than harder to pinpoint you.

Carriers are a small fraction of the problem, Google, Apple and Facebook are the main part of it, and all three of them are outside of the jurisdiction where I live, where carriers are not allowed legally to sell this data to advertisers because of the lack of a legal basis for processing. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen but it does mean that doing so is illegal.

Emergency services and LE after properly executed warrants are the only parties that should have access to this information without your explicit consent to be used for advertising.

Just enabling 'Google maps' on your phone should not give Google, the advertising giant unfettered access to your location data just to give one example.

I don’t understand why the FCCis mandating such accuracy. It seems like this is regulatory cover that then enables the tracking

911 location services, in case of emergency to be able to locate the caller.

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