Comment by nindalf | Hacker News Reader

Comment by nindalf | Hacker News Reader

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No information is proper enough. Like the second comment from top points out, the goalposts are always shifted.

Information on vaccine studies? Rushed.

Information on vaccine rollouts from countries that have reached 75-80% of the entire population vaccinated? Faked/not applicable.

Information comparing cases/deaths in US states with neighbouring states having higher vaccination rates? Invalid.

Look, be honest here. There’s more than enough information out there and none of it is being hidden. Hundreds of millions have gotten the shot and the benefits are abundantly clear. For example - “Despite Delta, severe covid-19 is much rarer among vaccinated Britons“ (https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/09/18/despite-...).

But this doesn’t make a difference. Despite all this information being available, people will still rely on faulty information like “Nicki Minaj’s cousin’s friend became impotent after he took the vaccine”. FWIW, the White House treated Minaj like an adult and reached out to have a conversation with her. But she didn’t change her mind.

> treat people like adults

If they were intelligent adults they’d be able to evaluate the data for themselves. Instead they watch YouTube videos telling them to “do their own research” followed by checking out Nicki Minaj’s tweets.

Go ahead. Try having an open debate with Nicki Minaj or Kyrie Irving or any vaccine skeptic with millions of followers. Let me know how that goes.

Trust flows both ways.

From the get-go, the messaging should have been: "This is an evolving situation, and we're doing our best to keep up. Right now, our recommendations are X. As we learn, those are going to change."

That's what Japan did. Humility and respect.

It worked.

In the US, it was: "Masks don't work! You're too stupid to even know how to use one properly. Save them for nurses. No, wait, if you don't wear your mask, you're literally killing grandma! We'll arrest your goat-fucking inbred ass if you don't mask up. Trump's vaccine? You'd have to be a colossal moron to take that experimental garbage. Not for me! No, wait, it's Biden's vaccine now? If you don't get the jab, you're Hitler Squared! Don't want it? You're fired!"

How well this worked is left as an exercise for the reader.

That worked in Japan because the culture there is far less selfish. People there would already wear masks when sick to avoid spreading it to others.

But in the US, you have people who continue to make arguments about how it's stupid to force them to wear a mask because others are afraid of getting COVID. I saw a really bad meme about that the other day where one person was walking with an umbrella and angrily telling someone else to also use an umbrella so the person with the umbrella wouldn't get wet.

In Japan, commandments works. In US and other countries not that well.

Along with humility and information, people also need to sense the care.

> That worked in Japan because the culture there is far less selfish.

No, and I'm tired of hearing this trope. People are plenty selfish everywhere.

Japan works because Japanese government understands trust. So does China, and for the same reasons.

You can't possibly compare the USA's culture to Japan's. The USA is incredibly individualistic and many Americans hold deep-seated distrust of any government/societal institutions.

Japan's culture is entirely communal. You don't talk on a cellphone on the train because it may inconvenience other passengers. You wear a mask when you're sick so you don't inconvenience others. So much of Japan's culture is rooted in making sure you aren't disrupting the general flow of society.

You can talk about "improper messaging" in the USA, but that rests squarely with President Trump. The entire point of that position is to be the figurehead of America and a unifying presence when things go wrong. He did not, and it caused irreparable damage to the trust and cohesiveness of the public early on in the pandemic.

Yet, why support your oppression?

The entire left/right ideas are pretty lame.

> The entire left/right ideas are pretty lame.

Agreed. It's a poor model, and doesn't reflect the current reality.

> You can't possibly compare the USA's culture to Japan's.

I can and shall.

> Much of Japan's culture is rooted in making sure you aren't disrupting the general flow of society.

It may surprise you to learn that the US was like this before. And that Japan probably won't be in forty years' time.

You know that movie trope from the 70s and before, where somebody needs a car, gets in one, which is, of course, unlocked, pulls down the visor, and the keys drop into their lap?

That's what it's like where I live.

My town had a home invasion last week. I don't think I've ever heard of that happening here.

> But that rests squarely with President Trump

No.

The establishment burned every ounce of credibility available to burn, succeeded in ousting Trump from office, and is now crying that everything has gone all firey like.

If Trump got a Big Mac on Monday, that was proof he was a Nazi. If he didn't on Tuesday, that was more proof that he was a Nazi.

Biden could nuke Dallas tomorrow and MSNBC would defend him without question. As would probably half the GOP.

The problem with "winning at any cost" is the cost.

Like it or not, that's the state of things in the US.

> many Americans hold deep-seated distrust of any government/societal institutions.

Those insitiutions could work on earning trust, for example by showing humility and respect, like your parent suggested.

Instead they have chosen to outright lie to the people they have supposed to serve and now its somehow those peoples fault when they trust the institutions even less.

Your US section is mostly accurate (and mortifying for the "trust the government" argument) in terms of how it was mentioned, but I disagree the "Trump's vaccine" segment. The numbers of the rollout might fit that story after the fact, but doesn't make it true.

Moreover, the entire odyssey of you should get this vaccine but only if you're in a very specific age or risk pool and let's punish people and hospitals who violate this set of ever-evolving poorly communicated rules did happen and might be even worse.

There's a supercut of prominent Blue Team folks -- including the Vice President! -- publicly refusing to to take "Trump's Vaccine".

After Biden took office, they executed an "about face" so hard that their heads are functional gyroscopes.

Totally agreed on the rest. My stance is simple: get the shot if you're in a high-risk group. Otherwise, your choice, for which you should never be punished.

Ya, and I bet that supercut cut out all the context and key parts of what they said. I've seen one showing Kamala Harris saying she wouldn't take a vaccine that Trump told her to take. But they cut out the next sentence where she says, but if our health officials and doctors and scientists say it's safe to take it, then I will.

I think the bigger point is the lack of trust in our public health rather than laying out the facts. The same way any person who is pro-vax will argue how beneficial it is, is the same way a person who doesn't believe it is beneficial to them will argue it out.

There is no one clear science, one clear truth to rule them all in this pandemic. This is the only truth I have come to terms with.

I see anti-vaxxers with their straw man arguments as just people who have no trust in the government and the health authorities. Can't blame them though, since the pandemic started almost 2 years ago, there is still a lot we don't know about it's actual origins.

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