To Be a Field of Poppies: turning cadavers into compost | Hacker News Reader

To Be a Field of Poppies: turning cadavers into compost

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42 pointsPetiver50 comments

I always adored the idea of recycling dead flesh instead of preserving it the way it's commonly done but there is a danger to consider: prions - they can get into the soil, then into the plants and then into the animals.

Seems like that should be pretty easy to stop. Birnessite can break down prions[1] and isn't particularly rare (assuming they don't already account for that).

[1] https://news.wisc.edu/common-soil-mineral-degrades-the-nearl...

Beware of overly optimistic university press releases. It's hopeful, but certainly not a panacea. In fact, it's not clear if it will work at all.

From your link: "The new study (...) was conducted on prions in solution in the laboratory". "The next step (...) is to mix the mineral with contaminated soil to see if it has the same effect". "I expect that its efficacy would be somewhat diminished in soil".

A similar conversation took place on HN a few months ago, and a few experts pointed out that a small mutation rendered sheep (I think) totally immune to some common prion disease that was universally fatal to sheep without the mutation. Without being able to find the citation at this moment, it made me much less concerned about the possibility of prions becoming an intractable problem that wipes out all complex life.

This suggests composting (mostly) inactivates prions: https://cen.acs.org/articles/92/web/2014/05/Composting-Offer...

Wow, well that was a thing I didn't know about. Cool, yet another disturbing way nature wants to make things terrible for me, haha :(

Two "fun" excerpts from the Wikipedia page about Prions[0]:

> Experimental evidence shows that unbound prions degrade over time, while soil-bound prions remain at stable or increasing levels, suggesting that prions likely accumulate in the environment

> It is thus possible that there is a progressively accumulating number of prions in the environment.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion

Prions are a minor risk when you eat them. So, maybe don't grow tomatoes on the grave of your loved ones. Though, I suspect that would actually be perfectly safe since plants don't tend to pass other pathogens despite what we feed them (i.e. manure).

Otherwise, composting is the most natural thing there is. Absolutely everything in nature dies, and mostly does not get embalmed, cremated, etc. Which is another way of saying it composts and gets recycled back into living stuff; some of which ends up in our food chain. Things like proteins are broken down in the process. And that would include prions.

So, absolutely nothing wrong with composting the remains of people. It's a nice ecological alternative to carbon intensive cremation processes or having a lot of nasty embalming fluids dumped into the local environment (which is where it ends up after the body eventually decomposes anyway). Not judging here; but I appreciate people making different choices and being somewhat conscious about not burdening the environment with their corpses any more than is strictly necessary.

I'd guess tomatoes are fine. I'd definitely think twice before eating carrots or potatoes from such a garden though, even washed and pealed thoroughly (and normally I wouldn't peal those.)

Embalming always seemed ridiculous to me.

Wasn't this merely part of a religious ritual?

My understanding is it was a moneymaker for the morticians, who managed to get laws passed requiring it.

I never knew and could never imagine this abominable thing is required by law.

Hardly. The religious ritual is just bury in the ground. I'm not sure it even involved even coffins originally.

I'm not as quick to dismiss the risk. A brief read of the Wikipedia article on prions has some concerning claims:

> All known prion diseases in mammals ... are progressive, have no known effective treatment, and are always fatal

> In 2015, researchers at The University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston found that plants can be a vector for prions. When researchers fed hamsters grass that grew on ground where a deer that died with chronic wasting disease (CWD) was buried, the hamsters became ill with CWD, suggesting that prions can bind to plants, which then take them up into the leaf and stem structure, where they can be eaten by herbivores, thus completing the cycle.

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion

Source 1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC33918/

Source 2: https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2015/06/researchers-make-surp...

What makes you think that ordinary human bodies are somehow a source of prions or that their composted remains are somehow different from the composted remains of wild life that actually already is in our food chain? The whole thing is more than a bit far fetched. People eat fish, collect berries from forest, mushrooms, eat deer, rabbits, etc. That's all fine. How is this different? We even eat lifestock that have been know to occasionally have outbreaks of prion related deceases (sheep, cows, etc).

Well, Kuru is tied to cannibalism.

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001379.htm

For CWD, You’re supposed to avoid eating anything that has come into contact with the brain, spine, or spinal fluid.

When livestock have an outbreak of a prion disease, they’re usually slaughtered and destroyed.

Searching for TSEs will garner you a lot of information if interested.

https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/tses/index.html

I think the point being made though is that CWD and other prion diseases are quite rare. Is there any danger from compost sourced from human bodies that died from non-prion-related diseases?

I'm certainly not an expert, but the Wikipedia article covers this as well:

> it is unusual for a prion disease to transmit from one species to another.

So I'd expect the risk to be higher when dealing with human remains.

There is a notable exception to this general rule:

> Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease, however, is thought to be caused by a prion that typically infects cattle, causing bovine spongiform encephalopathy and is transmitted through infected meat

The other problem (mentioned by another poster) is that just because someone didn't die of a prion disease doesn't mean they aren't harboring prions because the incubation period is 5 - 20 years.

General comment: the risk may very well end up being low, but I would personally prefer to avoid consuming plants that were grown on composted human brain or spinal material to lower my personal risk.

Nevertheless, I've read some people in Africa have already evolved to become immune.

I don't think that's a major problem, as prions are as old as life as far as we know and have not been the source of major problems, with the only known exceptions being caused by widespread cannibalism (such as a few villages or the cow-based cow diets).

In fact, one of the oldest organized religions in the world, Zoroastrianism (the religion of ancient Persian empire) disposes of their dead by putting them atop Towers of Silence [0] to be eaten by vultures, which has not been any source of problems as far as I know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Silence

I don’t think this works. No one eats the vultures so it would be hard for the prions to make it back to humans.

But have vultures shown evidence of neurodegenerative disease? Do they have adaptations that prevent it because of how much animal flesh they eat?

It’s a good question but I doubt anyone has studied the vultures of the fire temples of Iran or India for neurodegenerative diseases.

I doubt prions can withstand vulture stomach acid.

An acquaintance of mine was flying an ultralight, and decided to fly too close to some vultures.

I didn’t know this - but apparently if they think they are being chased they will vomit…

Some of it flew back onto him. He said the smell almost made him crash!

The safe and hygienic disposal of corpses is relatively new in human civilization and we're still here.

One similar possibility I was considering are FBI body farms where scientists study various properties of decomposition to be able to solve crimes better. At least I saw it on CSI. How cool would it be to be one of the corpses there :-)

Super cool http://forensics.usf.edu/humandonation/

If you're into that kind of thing, the Smithsonian runs a program whereby you can donate your body to it, and they'll use beetles to strip your flesh from the skeleton (which is what they want to study). I don't have any link to intake forms (probably findable if you dig hard enough) -- I know this only because my spouse worked at the Smithsonian a while back, and I knew researchers who were in the department that handled this.

This is not new. In the Jewish religion, the dead are buried without any embalming, cremation, or anything else except a plain cotten or linen cloth.

Even the casket is unadorned pine wood, without nails, metal, plastic, or paint. Wooden dowels are used to hold it together.

What do they have against nails?

Nails do not decompose. The idea is to return to the earth nearly the same way you arrived out of it.

Well of course they do, but maybe not on the timeline the religious adherents would prefer. Especially not if galvanized or coated in something to extend longevity

This is already mentioned in the article:

"No wonder embalming is considered desecration in some traditions, including among Muslims and Jews, who bury their dead in shrouds or simple coffins, sometimes without nails or fasteners, to avoid obstructing the decomposition process."

New England Casket was one of the major suppliers of Jewish coffins until they had an 8 alarm fire in 2019. Sadly, they've folded the tent in the wake of that. There's a good video about the company and their products made before the fire that's worth a watch.

https://www.universalhub.com/2015/east-boston-where-jewish-c...

There seems to me to be a substantive difference between the monotheistic attitude towards the dead body as an object of reverence, and this, in which the body is an object of use.

It may have historical precedent, but I don’t think these things are the same.

Catholism as well being a close offshoot of Judaism never allowed cremation but recently (~50 years ago?) the Vatican has said it is OK. I grew up Catholic and my parents especially so, although we are Canadian are typical Irish Catholic.

My Dad died a few months ago and I have to say cremation was difficult to accept. Not for religious reasons but to me it seems more natural to not be cremated. I know it sounds odd but it seems like a body should be left alone. I would have felt better knowing he was complete. It was unexpected to me to feel that way.

> it sounds odd but it seems like a body should be left alone

Nothing odd about it at all to me. Thanks for sharing.

> Not for religious reasons but to me it seems more natural to not be cremated.

I think the culture you were raised in will influence your attitude toward cremation. I would personally prefer to be cremated, mainly because I would feel guilty if my corpse took up a lot of space, rather than my compacted ashes being disposed of elsewhere.

After performing the death rituals for my mother last year, I felt at peace when I spread her ashes in the ocean. Had I buried her, I am unsure of how I would have felt.

Do you happen to know if wood glue or any type of adhesive is allowed?

I don’t know the full set of kosher laws (kosher laws do not apply just to foods). But I do know that my parents’ caskets had no glues or adhesives. Only wooden dowels. I would guess the law is all wood.

Becky Chambers explores the idea of composting humans in Record of a Spaceborn Few. It's the third book in her Wayfarer series, but I think it would work as a stand-alone novel if you aren't looking to read two books before you get to the one that discusses composting humans.

0.75m^3 is a lot more than I expected. What happens with the Mercury in fillings? Or is that small enough that it no longer matters?

Compared to all the other mercury we put back in the environment. We're talking a few grams here. And it doesn't do much damage while it's in your mouth either.

Just thinking off the top of my head, bioaccumulation is a thing for sure but I don't know how much that it comes from soil. Mercury is naturally occurring in various minerals, although not directly biologically available. Mercury fillings are the same way, not readily available for uptake by your body.

One interesting technology used in phytoremediation for accumulated heavy metals in soils: plants.

Many plants are known as "hyperaccumulators" of various metals. Medicago sativa (Alfalfa) and Dittrichia viscosa (Yellow Fleabane) for example were found to be suitable for mercury phytoremidiation in a study[1]. Lichen and mosses may also be suitable for above-ground bioaccumulation of mercury[2]

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269629648_Hyperaccu... [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s43017-021-00146-y

Just guessing here, but: perhaps whatever prevents the mercury from entering a patient's bloodstream over the course of his life, will continue to work in the soil?

Mercury fillings are fairly stable. That said, they're generally removed before cremation to avoid air pollution; possibly the same thing is done here.

There's a UK study that says cremation of the dead is a source of mercury in the atmosphere... So yeah.

Burial shrouds are my preference.

This is what I want. Don't bury me on my farm, let me become part of it.

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