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Comment by jasonpbecker | Hacker News Reader

The tone of this article is bizarre, ignoring the fact that Apple is implementing an ISO standard. It's interesting that states interpreted this conversation as a procurement conversation, since it's not clear the government is being asked to buy anything but instead to see where they are on the mDL standard and whether they'd be interested in participating in Apple's early phase release of support for that standard.

The information is useful, but the whole framing is very strange and conspiratorial that's not supported by the emails or the facts.

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One formula for low hanging clickbait is <large organization> + <conspiratorial topic> = plausible deniability for exploring option of malicious intent regardless of lack of evidence. And due to their success, tech companies make for great candidates for <large organization>.

This is also important to keep in mind when reading articles about less well-liked companies, e.g. Facebook, Amazon, etc.

So Apple joined them now it seems.

Who invented "clickbait". What is the purpose of "clickbait".

Non-profits supporting investigative journalism like MuckRock are to blame. MuckRock is not selling advertising, but don't be fooled. Investigative journalism will just create more clickbait.

Whereas Big Tech companies have nothing to do with clickbait nor advertising. They are not spreading clickbait like non-profits that submit FOIA requests. Tech companies do not make money from clickbait nor eyeballs. Tech companies have sources of non-advertising revenue and legitimate business purposes that benefit society.

In 2012, EFF filed over 200 FOIA requests through MuckRock, for information about drone usage. EFF should stop participating in these clickbait campaigns. EFF should be protecting Apple from low hanging clickbait.

We should be thanking Big Tech companies not scrutinising them. They mind their own business, they do not try to learn what their users/customers are doing. They respect user/customer privacy. OTOH, these non-profits submitting FOIA requests do not respect the privacy of Apple and governments, who deserve to be left alone, to do their work in private. This is a basic human right.

Why don't people trust Big Tech. Tech companies have done nothing wrong.

Is this satire?

Yes

If you haven't heard of it, you might be interested in Poe's law.[1] If you have... well you don't have much excuse, do you? ;)

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

Did you read the emails, though? They certainly don't sound like simply asking about "where they are on the mDL standard". They are asking for NDAs to be signed - why is that necessary if this is just about the progress of implementing an ISO standard?

And there's this from CA:

> The agreement I've been provided goes beyond a POC and appears to create more of a long term relationship.

> They are asking for NDAs to be signed - why is that necessary if this is just about the progress of implementing an ISO standard?

I'd assume there's something in there about Apple sharing their product roadmap and planning, so they can get all the ducks in a row for a unified launch rather than support coming in piecemeal.

They did a reveal during the keynote of the states they are currently supporting for IDs. It is standard Apple to be secretive until the announcement.

I agree that it's interesting and useful, but the article also tries to spread some FUD about this being "Apple's standard" when it's not (with some fearmongering rhetoric around "what about Android?", "what about other competing systems we haven't heard of yet?"); it's an ISO standard for mobile driver's licenses. I'm actually surprised and pleased that Apple has decided to go with a standard instead of doing their own thing, as usual.

But the author of the article either a) can't be bothered to do some basic research about the topic she's writing about, or b) is deliberately stirring up (fake) controversy to increase engagement. Either thing is pretty bad.

They asked and their request was rejected. Never hurts to ask!

Apple is super secretive about upcoming releases. They are are obviously going to ask for an NDA, otherwise they wouldn't be able to even mention things like upcoming release dates.

What do you see the ISO standard as modifying here?

There are zillions of standards after all, most not implemented by Apple and of the implemented ones, many are results of corporate lobbying or interests. Being a published standard doesn't mean it's somehow in the public interest or there is pressure to implement it.

Sorry, which ISO standard?

ISO 18013-5 mDL mobile driver’s license standard

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/09/apple-announces-first...

Would be nice if these standards were open. Can't audit it until it's introduced in iOS 15.x, I guess.

Edit for reference: https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso-iec:18013:-5:dis:ed-...

Having a look at your link, I see section A.3.10 is proposing the use case "Vote or register to vote".

Given how politically controversial the issue of voter ID is in some places (especially the US), I'm wondering if this this ISO standard is going to get mixed up in that political controversy.

Perhaps it's because it's only controversial to some, and only in the United States. And the fact that this "issue" is magnified by mass media.

It honestly isn't that controversial of an idea: a document stating that you're already registered to vote. That's it.

This is how it works in Canada: the address that Elections Canada has on hand for you (if any) is sent a flat piece of paper –not in an envelope either– that simply indicates that you're pre-registered to vote, and includes your home address, your polling location, and your poll number (which poll worker station you go to). The poll worker verifies your information with a second piece of information with your name + address: driver's license, passport, or piece of mail from a utility company, etc.

Personally, it'd be nice if I could opt to not receive and to not have to carry a piece of paper in the mail, and it sounds like this ISO standard + implementation can achieve that. (I'm guessing – I can't actually access the document)

> Perhaps it's because it's only controversial to some, and only in the United States.

Not only in the United States. See this article about proposals to introduce voter ID laws in Australia – https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/politics/australian-politics... – much like the US situation, the reforms are being proposed by the centre-right federal government, while the centre-left parties are opposed to it, as are progressive-leaning activist groups (such as the Human Rights Law Centre quoted in the article)

I can only speak for Australia, but this isn't an issue here. The article represents little more than a thought bubble that hasn't gone anywhere because it really is pointless. Proposals like that are never popular, have a near-zero chance of passing our parliament, and even if they did it wouldn't have the same election-swinging disproportionate effects as in the USA.

In Australia we have compulsory voting. We have an extremely well run elections operated by a highly competent non-partisan commission. And there are exceedingly few citizens which don't have some form of ID, whether that's a driver license, a photo card (voluntary card for people who don't have a driver license) a public healthcare card, or an ID issued by the welfare system.

>It honestly isn't that controversial of an idea: a document stating that you're already registered to vote. That's it.

Personally my problem is that voting laws are handled at the Federal level down, but IDs are run by the States. I guess RealID is supposed to be sort of the solution to that issue, but the requirments for those are annoying to fulfill if you're not a utility-paying tenant.

Coming from a country (Australia) where federal elections are 100% run by and under control of an (independent) federal agency – I wonder how much of the recent US controversies over voting are due to the fact that the implementation of federal elections is something under state (and often even local) control?

Would a "federal takeover" improve things? Have the FEC (or maybe even a new successor agency) actually run presidential and congressional elections?

Of course, I realise it is very unlikely that legislation for such a "federal takeover" would make it through Congress, and if they did, there is a high likelihood that SCOTUS (especially with their current majority) would strike it down as an unconstitutional encroachment on state's rights.

There are no controversies here because we have compulsory voting, which means that it's impractical to try to legislatively suppress the vote.

Problem with that argument: in New Zealand, they have non-compulsory voting, but New Zealand doesn't have those kinds of controversies either. That's why I don't think compulsory voting really works as an explanation, despite the fact that it is the first thing to pop into many Australians' heads.

In fact, most Western countries are like New Zealand – lack of compulsory voting (unlike Australia), lack of any major controversies over the integrity of the voting system (unlike the US)

> I guess RealID is supposed to be sort of the solution to that issue, but the requirments for those are annoying to fulfill if you're not a utility-paying tenant.

How so? There's a ton of other choices for how to prove residency. For example, here's your choices if you live in Texas: https://www.dps.texas.gov/section/driver-license/texas-resid...

If you have a car, you're good, since the vehicle registration and insurance count as the two documents you need. If you have a job, you're good, since a W-2 and a pay stub count as the two documents you need. If you don't pay any bills, and you don't have a car or a job, then you're almost certainly living with someone else (probably your parents), so you're good since they can fill out a Residency Affidavit.

I did say annoying, not impossible. For me it was no car, not the master tenant, no Residency Affidavit in my state, and I don't own a printer. So, an annoying afternoon to pull up my W2 and a paystub and send them to a Kinkos, as opposed to just one afternoon wasted at the DMV.

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