Hacker News Reader

Comment by blitzar | Hacker News Reader

I am no fan of digital ID's but did he really need a FOIA request to break open the idea that Apple were thinking of adding drivers license to their native app and talking to the DVLA in various states about it?

>“How did it happen? Why had I or no one ever heard of it, given I know a lot of folks in the government tech space?”

Apparently this guy doesnt know much ... but enough to waste some peoples time with useless FOIA requests.

UK shows off prototype of digital iPhone driving license using Apple’s Wallet app - May. 13th 2016 11:06 am PT [1]

Louisiana, where I live, was the first state to roll out a digital driver's license on July 3, 2018, and a few other states are working on similar initiatives. The app that you use in Louisiana is called LA Wallet. [2]

[1] https://www.macrumors.com/2016/05/13/uk-digital-driving-lice... [2] https://www.iphonejd.com/iphone_jd/2018/07/review-la-wallet....

View on HN

> Apparently this guy doesnt know much ... but enough to waste some peoples time with useless FOIA requests.

I think this is really useful.

Apple and Microsoft have some of the most sophisticated BD/partnership teams in the world.

Many companies who partner with Apple use an internal codeword and don't let others within the company know the client, terms of the deal, or the scope of the work.

Being able to see how Apple is approaching these deals is really interesting and valuable. They are going into 50 states and dealing with the DMV. The DMV has a reputation of being disorganized and not very technical. Apple has the opposite reputation. We are getting a front-row seat into how "disruption" happens.

Even if partnership deals don't get you excited, having transparency into how private companies do business with the government is almost always a good thing.

And what did we learn? Not a whole lot. Just a pretty regular plain process asking for meeting and setting up some articles of understanding to implement an ISO standard, with the expected twist that it was under NDA until the public announcement.

> I am no fan of digital ID's but did he really need a FOIA request to break open the idea that Apple were thinking of adding drivers license to their native app and talking to the DVLA in various states about it?

He would need an FOIA request to each state DMV for documentation on the agencys' responses to Apple and any internal deliberation on the matter.

What an odd idea that FOIA requests are a waste of some employee's time, considering the vast amount of waste in the system already. Anything that can be released with an FOIA request should never have been locked behind closed doors in the first place. Locking public information up is shady and is the true reason that is wasting everyone's time.

Doesn't the FOIA requester have to pay for those employee's time anyways?

Taxpayers already do with their contribution to the country budgets, in EU you can submit FOIA for free to governments entity and to any private company who received government funding, it's a matter of public interest and if you receive my money (as taxpayer) then you put into account the fact that as a citizen I might request some answers

It varies depending on the agency, the scope of the request and the purpose of the request. For just one example, here's the State of Illinois FOIA FAQ:

https://www2.illinois.gov/dnr/FOIA/Documents/FOIA_Frequently...

//I am no fan of digital ID's

Why not? What's not to like about it? if it can be implemented in a reasonably foolproof way? Isn't being able to ditch the wallet a huge win?

Hit the nail on the head: "if it can be implemented...?"

We're talking 50 individual state governments here. We all know that federal, state, and local govt IT practices are basically troubled at best, disastrously shoddy at worst, the only way I would accept this idea is if it was a completely optional, user-chosen, option for an ID.

I would want at least ten years of first adopters getting their lives shafted and/or stolen and/or stalked and/or breached before I'd ever think of even using the optional service.

Yes, little trust.

It's an ISO standard.

As the experience of Estonia shows, a digital ID can be very useful and effective, but does take some work (they had a big revocation effort to manage, which they were able to do so because their country is so small).

Bigger countries such a Germany have basically punted on this issue.

I'm a big fan and disappointed that California isn't in the vanguard.

And as we all know, standards are implemented faithfully and to-the-letter in real life. /s

What's the problem this actually solves for the average person? Obviating a physical card?

Yes, and also enabling not-physical validation (e.g. you could open a bank account or w/e similarly strict thing online, with your identity being verified automatically). It's convenient and saves time.

Yes, I leave my DL my gf’s car (which annoys her no end) as that’s the only place I would need it. I don’t carry a wallet any more.

It's so funny to me that HN is so skeptical of technology sometimes. Why build the internet when you get all the information you need at the local library? Why have cars when my horse provides companionship and transportation at the same time?

To answer the question though, since Apple Pay now works almost everywhere, my ID is one of the only cards I still need to carry. If I had a digital ID, I don't think I'd need to carry a wallet anymore.

I don't think of HN as a "technology fan site" but people who have to deal with this stuff every day. Some caution, especially based on experience, is warranted.

> To answer the question though, since Apple Pay now works almost everywhere, my ID is one of the only cards I still need to carry. If I had a digital ID, I don't think I'd need to carry a wallet anymore.

Where do you live? I currently live in California so only carry ID when driving or (more recently) when planning to enter certain buildings, like federal buildings or airports. Otherwise I don't bother and it hasn't been a problem for me.

Sometimes people do ask for ID (or an SSN) but when I politely say "I'm sorry I don't have one" they typically want to do business with me so magically don't need any info.

I'm clearly over drinking age and don't need controlled prescriptions.

I totally get your points on technology, but I feel like sometimes people here become so focused on the risks that they forget about the good side.

As someone who has been building software for 20+ years now, I know how it fails and how it can make people's lives miserable. I know how developers cut corners and how quality always takes a back seat to other business concerns. I know how technology can erode privacy, or be used as a tool for governments to exact more control on their citizens.

I'm probably more skeptical of technology in everyday life than your average non-technical person.

> Apple Pay now works almost everywhere

I live in a city, and Apple/Google Pay definitely does not work anywhere near everywhere (even after more businesses went contactless due to COVID). I wouldn't think of leaving home without physical credit cards.

(I was at a bar this weekend. Ironically I could not pay my tab with my phone, but their photobooth took Apple & Google Pay.)

> I live in a city, and Apple/Google Pay definitely does not work anywhere near everywhere (even after more businesses went contactless due to COVID). I wouldn't think of leaving home without physical credit cards.

This isn't the case in some parts of the world.

In Australia, even before COVID, I could make 2-3 day interstate business trips with flight tickets, credit cards, public transport all my phone.

I rarely carry cash or even my physical credit cards, and haven't needed to for years now.

The US still doesn't have wide-spread use of chip & pin on credit cards. Innovation & adoption of digital identity in this country is unlikely to be rapid.

> The US still doesn't have wide-spread use of chip & pin on credit cards

That's not really the case anymore. The new struggle is contactless. I can count on my hands how many times I've had my current debit card swiped (which is good since its stripe is looking like shit by now).

Gas stations are finally implementing chip transactions (the deadline is Oct 2021 iirc), which fortunately generally includes a contactless reader.

But alas, we'll likely see the same problems with digital ID that we have with REAL ID.

It was October 2020, but it was extended to April 2021. Now past the deadline, gas stations are liable for fraudulent transactions using chip cards.

https://adeptpayments.com/blog/2021/05/12/emv-compliance-dea...

> if it can be implemented in a reasonably foolproof way?

With my wallet, I run the risk of losing my ID or having it get stolen.

With an ID on my phone, I still have those risks, but now I also have the risk of dropping the phone and breaking it, as well as the battery dying. Not to mention just some random software glitch breaking things.

> Isn't being able to ditch the wallet a huge win?

For all but the most trivial of trips outside my home (where I expect to need ID), I doubt I would leave my physical ID at home, ever. And if I have to carry it as a backup, why have the digital ID at all?

These all seem like pretty unlikely issues in day to day life. I've owned a smartphone for over ten years, never so much as broken a screen, and it's extremely rare for my battery to die. Software has been extremely reliable. I already have a wallet case I use with my phone (so if I lose my wallet, hey, built-in tracking device on my wallet!).

This seems like a great physical ID replacement. If it were available in California I would 100% use it immediately and leave my physical ID in a filing cabinet at home forever.

How often do you replace your phone? I've been using an iPhone 8 that I bought used for years now, and the battery health is not great.

Still not planning to replace it until the battery is so bad that it dies on me nearly every time I leave the house, instead of occasionally.

I replace my phone every two years and trade/sell my old one while the resale value is still good. It comes out to about a dollar a day in cost, which is a bargain considering the utility I get out of it. Battery health has been around 90% at the two year mark.

Because the problem is that we need id so often not that its inconvenient. You should need it for a passport, to show a policeman if pulled over, and if applying for welfare benefits or accessing govt services (voting, tax stuff, etc.) Basically nowhere else. Make id more convenient and more ppl will demand it.

>“How did it happen? Why had I or no one ever heard of it, given I know a lot of folks in the government tech space?”

I had a good LOL at that too. I remember people in uni were even talking about this in a business course like 10 years ago. This is not like a groundbreaking idea to digitize an ID.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com