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Comment by _6pvr | Hacker News Reader

> It’s hard to do test-first TDD “mindlessly” because writing a test usually forces you to think in terms of the specification of the behavior you’re about to implement.

Tests are code. Code can be sloppy, fallible, useless. Writing a consumer before you write a provider doesn't make either more robust, just the point at which they meet more clear. You can certainly write a test that uses a function, but the test doesn't actually test anything at all, just that the function exists. aka "mindless TDD".

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Very well said.

I have nothing against TDD if that's something that helps a particular person write good code and good tests.

I find though that people that write good tests are just people that write good tests. Most people write tests that assert on implementation details instead of inputs and output and that's easily doable via TDD as well.

It’s hard to assert based on implementation details if you don’t have an implementation yet: the advantage of test-first code is that you usually have to write the tests in terms of the interfaces of the input and output types rather than inspecting the code under test.

That's because you know how to write good tests but TDD didn't force you to do that.

Simply put, TDD just means you write the assertion first, see it red, then change the code to make it green.

You can do that by specifying a failing test via input/output testing. You can also very easily write a failing test that tests that the YXZ() method is gonna be called on some internal thing that you're replacing with a mock. Add that method and voila, green test, TDD happy. Bad test though.

Yes, I agree with this. Process exists to increase the bottom, but if you're trying to rely on TDD to get valuable tests, you're probably just thinking of the problem incorrectly (I think).

In my experience, the absolute best way to get valuable tests is to have someone whose job it is to own them, their correctness, and add to them when new issues arise. An SDET, or a rotating team member, or whatever. The average dev isn't going to write a test that's super valuable if they also wrote the code.

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