Comment by japhyr | Hacker News Reader

Comment by japhyr | Hacker News Reader

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This is the Pulse[0] "safety system". I was trying to buy a new truck this spring, and going through the back-and-forth of talking to a number of dealers. I had a vehicle specced out, and ready to commit to, and I asked to review the final paperwork. There was a $400 charge listed that hadn't been disclosed earlier. I was frustrated because I'd asked numerous times, "Am I going to see any additional charges on the final paperwork?"

The dealer explained that this is a "critical safety feature" that they install on all the vehicles they sell. He then explained that it makes the brake light flash whenever you press the brake pedal. I read about it for 10 minutes, and found there's a legitimate system in use in Europe that detects emergency braking and flashes the brake light. Since that system detects emergency braking and not just pressing the brake pedal, it doesn't go off all the time and actually means something to other drivers. The Pulse system is just a $30 part that's spliced into the wires right behind the brake light, that the dealer gets to charge $400 for it. And it annoys everyone driving behind you.

I live in a small town on an island with 14 miles of road. There were about five vehicles here five or ten years ago with this system, and they stood out because we all start to recognize each other's cars in an isolated town of 10,000. All of those cars are gone or have had the system removed. I told the dealer I'd look like an a***e to bring that system back to our town. He called back later to say I was lucky and they hadn't installed the system on this particular vehicle yet, and he got special permission to sell me one without Pulse. I told him I found a dealer that wasn't trying to upsell useless parts and hung up.

I've heard of people buying new without running into this kind of tactic. But this is the first time I've ever bought a new vehicle, and I ran into almost every issue I've read about when dealing with new car dealers.

[0] https://www.pulseprotects.com

> The dealer explained that this is a "critical safety feature" that they install on all the vehicles they sell. He then explained that it makes the brake light flash whenever you press the brake pedal. I read about it for 10 minutes, and found there's a legitimate system in use in Europe that detects emergency braking and flashes the brake light. Since that system detects emergency braking and not just pressing the brake pedal, it doesn't go off all the time and actually means something to other drivers.

Good god, slimy sales tactics asides that sounds like complete cargo-culting of the feature making it not just useless for its original purpose but actively misleading.

And I would expect the original feature grew at least in part from the common habit (I don't think it's ever required) of enabling the hazards when reaching an unforeseen obstruction: on many cars these days the hazards will automatically switch on during emergency braking (usually detected via an accelerometer, it tends to come on at the same time as brake assist though I don't think the two are coupled), it's possible that on some the brakes will also flash though I can't remember ever seeing that.

Of course many US cars have red turn signals / hazards, and US standards even allow brakes and turn signals to use the same lights, which is… not sane.

There are a fair number of vehicles on the road already with enhanced emergency brake lights; BMW in particular comes to mind. If you REALLY romp on it, another set of segments will light up, I think it might be the rear fogs that come on, along with a single additional flash. Not the godawful strobing every time you brush the brakes like with these "pulse" systems. (which thankfully seem incredibly rare on the west coast.. for now).

One particularly awful safety feature actually ramps up brake force assist when it "detects" emergency braking behavior; typically abrupt lift off of the throttle and subsequent application of the brake.

They never considered that maybe I WANT to abruptly lift off the throttle and then GENTLY apply the brakes, without having my head thrown towards the steering wheel.

> There are a fair number of vehicles on the road already with enhanced emergency brake lights; BMW in particular comes to mind.

FMVSS 108 still requires steady illumination of the stop lamps (including the center high mounted one). I found one article[1] staying that the NHTSA granted a temporary exception to that requirement for Mercedes in 2006. Was that exemption expanded and is it still in effect?

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna11351634

Interesting. I suspect the way it works, since the vehicles I'm thinking of have an additional set of stop lamps that illuminate, is that a 2nd set comes on and one or the other set flashes, but the others stay illuminate the whole time.

Pulse has a "Gross Margin Analysis" spreadsheet published (probably unintentionally) on their website[1]. It shows that they're charging dealerships $59.00 for the part and it installs in about 15 minutes.

At a 500% markup, it feels less about your safety and more about the dealerships/pulseprotects income safety.

1. (warning xls) https://www.pulseprotects.com/wp-content/uploads/Pulse-Prote...

> Dealership Monthly Investment calculation is based upon a Dealership un-installing modules on vehicles sold without Pulse.

The profit calculation is based on preinstalling the system on every vehicle that goes on the lot, and then uninstalling it on request. This means opting out costs the dealership real money, from installing and then uninstalling it.

It's extremely distracting while driving, and if more cars adopt that, then everyone will be worse off. I wish they were illegal (and I wonder if they technically are, because flashing means that for a brief second the light is off while the pedal is being pressed, and I have to imagine the law is written that the brake light must be lit when the brake pedal is pressed).

Flashing red lights are generally illegal and reserved for emergency vehicles. Pulse skirts this by claiming it's not a flashing light, but a pulsing one.

"Pulse is the only pulsing third brake light that meets regulatory requirements for use in all 50 states. Step on the brake pedal and Pulse goes to work pulsing, rather than flashing, the third brake light. What’s the difference? NHTSA regulations restrict flashing lights to emergency vehicles. Our award winning rear-end collision deterrent technology causes the third brake light to remain steady burning, even while the light pulses."

Hmm... thanks for looking that up. I'm not a lawyer, but I imagine the court has discretion to throw that explanation out of the window.

IMO it would be better for NHTSA to create rulemaking that would regulate pulsing brake lights for use under heavy braking conditions similar to Europe. Effectively making it a safety feature instead of yet another annoying distraction on the road that this pulse system puts out.

I think in Europe in case of emergency breaking all turnsignals blink automatically for a moment (not the break lights). You can make all the turnsignals blink manually when you toggle "emergency lights" switch.

This feature is called "Dynamic Brake Lights" and seems to be somewhat common on new vehicles in Europe. Under hard emergency braking, the brake (red) lights flash rapidly. If the vehicle comes to a complete stop after emergency braking, the hazard (blinking amber) lights will turn on automatically until you move off again.

The emergency braking (I didn't know it was Europe-specific) flashes the hazard lights (turn indicators), not the brake lights.

And at least in my Auris it also flashed the hazard light indicator inside the car

Many EU-spec cars have the brake lights flash under emergency braking, and the hazards come on if the car comes to a stop after that. This is how it was implemented in several cars I owned - a C-class, an Audi A5, and now in a EU-spec Model 3 as well.

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