Ask HN: Worth shifting from banking to programming career?

Don't do it. The ageism is heavy in this industry, and you will not get paid the sort of money you are making as a newbie programmer. Second, you will always be on the treadmill of learning new technologies - the whole industry becomes unrecognizable, even to someone who has been in it, every decade or so. That's a very high rate of change to keep up with for someone who has family and interests outside of work.

The lower rungs are populated by naive youngsters coming off college campuses; middle rungs by bored, political players who see the writing on the wall and are trying to schmooze their way into management, or idealists who retain their naivete but will soon realise that they are unemployable. You rarely see people aged 50+ working as programmers (unless they are willing to take massive pay cuts), and for good reason: they have been driven out.

I am in my mid fifties and programming steadily for ever. It is a very fun and creative job, enough market demand that I was a good parent. You do have to/get to learn new stuff all the time. There are certain types of green fields programming that is possibly less common now than when I was younger, but I get to teach other people good skills while they crank it out, and I get the knotty problems to solve, or the risky changes that people tend to be leery of. Salary wise, if you are happy with your career I wouldn’t change just for money, but if you like intellectually stimulating work that makes a difference and is in demand, programming is that. There is is some age discrimination but it’s really more salary discrimination. The older you are the more money you earn, and when they do layoffs or whatever, the higher salary makes people targets. People get pissed but none of my friends haven’t gotten a new position.

The parent comment means that when I have a sick kid or a play to see or want to work part time for a few years, I just do it. They whine but keep me.

Programming is a fun activity, but whether it is possible to have a lucrative career doing only programming is debatable. It's usually the case that you can maintain an upward trajectory in your pay only if you shift to the management track, not to mention the increase in your longevity.

Good enough is a feast. Just save a lot and live frugally on the long term things, like houses and cars. I have a fucking tiny house in SV but hey my kids where forced to learn how to share. And when the stock gods bless me I save some and travel some, not buy a bigger house. And maybe buy a new iPad. Happiness is what you get divided by what you expect.

Thank you. I'm glad I posted on this forum as the responses are a departure from the usual 'everyone should learn coding' rhetoric.

100% agree w/ OP here. You would have about a decade or so of work as a programmer and then need to jump to management anyway. Assuming you are pretty smart and can pick programming up, that gives you about eight or nine years of solid work, your comp will be lower than what you can achieve in banking and then you would run smack dab into the programmer wall.

I think a better strategy would be to pick up some light coding on the side, get into positions in your own company working with technologies you like (DeFi or DeFi-adjacent) and then look for an problem/opportunity to create a software company from there.

You can always hire programmers.

recursive has hit the nail on the head when it comes to your time expense (don't forget to account for the opportunity cost here). Programming is a craft. As with any other craft (carpentry, plumbing), you will take a solid few years to get reasonably good at it. This is assuming you get into a good place where you can be an apprentice who has good teachers to learn from. If that's not the case, then you will have to give yourself even more time to become good, let's say six years. Now you are past 40, and are looking at recruiters who are (a) looking to lowball you and (b) expecting you to have a great deal of expertise, both at the same time. Assuming this doesn't completely demoralize you, you are still only at a mid-junior level after all this effort, not to mention the loss of income and career opportunities in banking.

Banking pays well. If you need the income, you are better off sticking to it, because the pay differential and loss of opportunity cost just don't justify getting into this industry.

Better option would still to get fairly deep into the technical underpinnings of your org’s platform, and be the guy who can bridge both sides — deep understanding of the business, and one of the few understanding of the tech stack that enables it.

That’s probably the best place to aim. Few people in your org will accomplish that successfully, so being the one who can will set you apart, help get things done faster (help developers gain domain context, help the business understand how things work under the hood), and keep yourself relevant and useful.

> You rarely see people aged 50+ working as programmers (unless they are willing to take massive pay cuts)

I think this is just exposure, there’s loads - but you aren’t likely seeing them in the places you are in.

It is my understanding that they are to be found in larger numbers in older companies (Cisco comes to mind), and in defense companies. Having worked for a while in SV in a variety of companies, I have seen a small number of people in this age group.

There is also the fact that the profession itself is quite young, so it's possible that there isn't going to be a large enough cohort of programmers to notice, even if ageism were completely absent.

However, your assertion that there are loads is also based on just the exact same thing as my assertion is: anecdata. Where do you see large numbers of older programmers? Outside SV, perhaps?

Yes, I would say most are outside SV. The SV work style isn't a good fit for everyone :).

I think it's a hard sell for where you're currently at career-wise.

If you're interested in it you could approach it from a hobbyist perspective just for the joy of programming. You might find that somewhat useful later when you're the only VP over the quant department that can code or something like that. Even that is reaching.

Tech pays significantly better than most fields. Banking is not one of them.

Thanks. I know this is a very crude question to ask, but what does tech comp look like for software engineers?

No not all! Perfectly reasonable question.

As Kinrany pointed out there is a website called https://levels.fyi for tech jobs. It's like glassdoor but good. You can poke around there and see comp at various companies.

There is a pretty stark divide between older enterprise companies and Silicon Valley tech companies / well funded startups.

In the enterprise world the salaries tend to start at around $80k and top out around $150k. There are some exceptions in both directions depending on experience and expertise.

At the larger tech companies (google, facebook, netflix, etc) they can afford to pay quite a bit more in the from of Stock RSU's that are highly valued in the market. Starting comp tends to be around $200k for effectively entry level $300k-$350k for senior, $500k for Staff Engineer (in this role you are delivering entire projects. So say you hear google make an announcement of a new service coming out, there is at least one Staff Eng behind that. It does keep going past that but the numbers are harder to find. $1M-$3M is more rare but if you promote enough happens. I've heard tell of recutirers being baffled they couldn't steal especailly sought after engineers from these companies and then finding out their comp was in the double digit millions per year. Lets just say not everyone reaches that level haha.

Those companies are fairly hard to get into. It's possible but requires a fair bit of effort and most people find the style of interviewing they do to be a real slog.

I'm not very familiar with manager comp at the silicon valley tech companies but from what I understand it's reasonable good, often more than the engineers on their team are making.

In large enterprise companies on the other hand it tends to be quite bad (compared to the same amount of experience as a dev) and is often less than their engineers make.

One interesting path might be to try to make the switch to one of the Silicon Valley Tech companies as a manager without learning to code (or only learning a nominal amount).

You also mentioned DeFi. You could look around at companies doing fintech or blockchain. Crypto related companies have a reputation for paying quite well (unfortunately I don't know any of the numbers there. Maybe look around for companies like Coinbase on levels.fyi)

https://levels.fyi

Thanks! That's a wide spread of salaries!

I will assume those earning $300K+ are the top-tier of talent and have roles that would be hard for me to break into while self-learning programming part-time. Would that be fair?

Yes. Top tier of talent, experience, and companies. There are many excellent developers who don't make that money either. The vast majority of developers are around $100k.

Not easy, but probably not near impossible, but I imagine they’re more of less mid-level and not entry level roles.

You’d probably do better to spend your time doing leetcode prepping for the interviews though if they’re your goals.

To put it in finance terms, EV and ROI in banking is much higher than coding imho. (Matching banking comp at middle of bell curve, you have to go to the right tail of tech curve).

Tech however has better EV in autonomy and intrinsic motivation (for me, very subjective I know) and much higher optionality in comp in the long run.

The typical example is a guy who codes for fun and don't mind taking a below market comp for a few years but is smart to choose to join a pre-IPO unicorn startup and make his comp on the backend. (150K for 3 years there a million dollar payday via employee options).

My personal example is after leaving a high frequency trading firm, I worked on automated market neutral option trading on my own retail account as a side hustle and built it up enough where my trading income exceeds my W-2 income consistently.

But don't think you should go for it if money is a primary motivation, if so the money payoff from the optionality if it comes, you won't be able to wait for during the years of theta bleed.

Got it. In all of the above, there's also the implicit assumption that I'll be good enough in coding to be able to benefit from the higher optionality in comp in tech, which is not a given.

Rather pursue a finance role at a tech company than start coding yourself. You may find that as someone who understands programming, an eventual CFO position at a startup is a good fit.

Also, from a hedge against disruption perspective, your experience in your current industry would likely be of more value to a new business making inroads against traditional banking than some future programming ability.

p.s. I say this as an engineer in fintech.

That is good perspective. If I understand you correctly: if I were to move to the tech industry, my product / industry knowledge of banking will be more valuable than any programming skills I self-learn

Yes. When developers take on new projects or roles, the programming isn't the hard part; it's the domain. There's also a lot of momentum in the fintech world these days.

Correct. More specifically a finance expert with enough understanding of programming to communicate clearly and plan collaboratively with programmers would likely be more valuable than anything they could become as a programmer. This is particularly true if as you say you're already in management. (Mainstream IT management of projects intended for skilled users outside of tech is still typically a disaster.)

An expert individual contributor (some sort of trader?) in a high value finance niche might be valuable if they combined skills and wrote code for their previous role, but by management level your equivalent peer in tech may well be a dev manager.

The role you are likely to be most valuable in is straddling a finance management position and what tech would call a product owner. And, yes, as you seem to understand, your peak value to a company would likely be planning systems that would ultimately automate/destroy the jobs of of many of your previous peers and reports.

The combining of domain expertise is the key, if you're a success in your mid 30's you need to use what you have, not replace it.

> increase my odds of landing a c-suite position over time

If you are in banking and your goal is the C-suite, and that is at all realistic given where you arr now, programming is probably a costly distraction.

Emphasis on odds. It's still a small-ish probability. That said, getting to what my firm calls executive-level from where I am right now is attainable if I play my cards right.

Why would you give up one of the most enviable positions in corporate America for the slimmest chance to make anything close to what you earn now? You'd be flushing your job security down the drain to join the ranks of an incredibly competitive field, and likely end up getting hired by a Fortune 500 company who's more interested in seeing you write a linked list than hearing about how passionate you are on the subject.

I'm sorry if that came off raw or dismissive, but you kinda missed the boat here by a decade. Defi is cool, but if you're in banking then you should be well aware that crypto is a side-pot, and a relatively small one at that.

My advice? Keep your job, just start programming on the weekends and see how it makes you feel. If you're any good at it, you'll be able to apply those skills to your current job so you can waste less time and spend more time studying programming. Sounds like a win-win-win situation to me.

Not raw or dismissive at all. This is the type of advice I was looking for.

Unless you're immensely talented with insane energy levels and plenty of free time it would take you 3 to 5 years to get to similar comp levels as a dev.

Keep in mind that established and talented engineers prepare for 3 to 12 months to pass interviews at FAANG and hedge funds.

> it would take you 3 to 5 years to get to similar comp levels

In most parts of the US, it's very difficult to obtain those salaries as a developer, even with far more than 5 years of experience.

> at FAANG and hedge funds.

Ok, wasn't clear to me that's what the full comment was referring to. Thanks for clarifying.

That is interesting. I did not know that. Thanks!

Around 5 years ago I shifted from ibanking to tech, I was in my forties, middle management. Everyone thought I was crazy.

Took one year off to deep dive into programming and analytics, same year my first kid was born.

Already had previous programming experience as a quant. Quant experience plus data and ai tailwinds were huge contributors go get into where I am today. Headwinds: I’m based in Southern Europe, relocation not an option for family.

I’m at clevel in a Fortune 500. Not planning to move up as risk of eroding tech skills is high. I’m not programming anymore but working at engineering management and leadership.

If your plan to shift career do it by connecting the dots between what you do today and how can you bring value to tech thru your combined experience.

I’m about to be 30 and wanting to break into development from IT. I already feel like I’m late to the party. How was it for you?

Why shift career and not just learn programming in your spare time? Just spend a few hours a week learning the basics and make some small things you like. For many people programming is not all that enjoyable and it requires a certain mindset. Reading what you wrote I would do this and not think about a career: just fiddle around and if you turn out to be a wonder, maybe you will see opportunities around you. I am in banking automation and there is a lot to do; most of it I probably have no clue about.

If you are a talent or/and love it, you can always move.

My thinking is as follows: if I commit to learning programming it would be for career reasons and not as a hobby. This is because there is an opportunity cost to my time, there are other skills that I could be developing that stack better with my current career. In other words, learning programming will come at the expense of furthering my current career.

Im in a very similar position to you in age, career, & industry. I moved from a career in banking to a tech consultancy company (into a non technical but senior role) and have just started a part time Masters Degree in Software Development to learn to program. I agree with the pros and cons you mentioned. Another couple of pros in my mind are; 1. Gaining the skills to build my own digital products and services in my own time (to scratch an entrepreneurial itch), 2. Given enough practice, I think it'll be easier for me to contract as a programmer in future rather than with my current skillset, meaning I can look to work less (e.g. 6 months on, 6 months off etc.) which is something else I'd like to do. 3. I just generally enjoy the technology and building things.

Learning programming to consult or create a B2B product that you can sell to your current employer/industry sounds much better than starting from the ground level as a junior dev.

That is true for sure.

Question: do you think you'll have enough time with your current full-time job to be able to learn programming enough to be able to build your own digital products (in other words, do you have enough time to take advantage of pro #1 in your list?)

Great question. I have been able to build things already without formal training in the field and a busy working week, but the reason I chose to study is I was plateauing in my ability and was also missing the fundamentals/best practice. My view is that I only need to be able to build MVP's, which I think can be done with limited time. Should any MVP show promise, I could hire in talent to take it to the next level, and, have a good understanding of the technical side to do so.

Most senior level developers, lead developers or architects.

Will never make $250k. At most $120K. $160-180K is doable. But that is many years of experience.

$450k FANG salaries is silicon valley based. Highly competitive, and rare.

You can move to management without being an engineer first. Tech has lots of internal functions, just like other businesses.

Is one disadvantaged in tech without having an engineering background?

No. You can be a VP of Product without an eng background. Learn just enough coding to be able to communicate with devs.

Learning UI/UX Design or Project Management would be an easier path.

If your purpose is to be a software engineer and work for a large company, then lacking a formal degree in comp sci /comp eng/soft eng will always be a weak point you will have to compensate for. You will likely be filtered out before interview. This is less so if you intend to be in management or are interviewing for small startups.

You can try this experiment:

Go to Google or Facebook careers page and see if any of the listed positions match what you're doing at your current co. Then cross-reference that positions with comp levels at levels.fyi

If it's all good, contact an internal recruiter at these companies and ask what your chances are.