EFF Flew a Plane over Apple's Headquarters
eff.org
eff.org
It’s cool when you find an organisation whose actions line up with your view of the world like that, and appears to be pretty effective too.
Someone else commented about the cost of this “stunt”, but I can’t see it costing a huge amount to pull off in the big scheme of things, and it does make for some excellent visuals which as someone else pointed out, may give some journalists a “hook” into the story.
I don’t donate much (monthly recurring) but I’m pretty happy with what I see coming out of the EFF and am happy to support them.
By the way, if anyone is on the fence about donating, check out their site as you can get some “cool”[1] EFF swag in return for your donation too:
https://supporters.eff.org/donate/
[1] No guarantees implied or given about how “cool” others will think your swag actually is.
At this point, the cat is out of the bag, and has been out of the bag for several years, it's just hitting 'close to home' now. Withdrawals and delays that are effected as a result of these will not make any difference.
This isn't a good fight but a form of denial and while I've been a regular supporter of theirs for several years, I now question where their priorities lie.
This particular thing was very clearly and deliberately a “stunt” but to me it feels more like the exception than the norm for the sort of thing EFF typically does?
Admittedly I’m fairly new to EFF so have only really been paying attention to them for a year or two.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/09/dont-stop-now-join-eff...
If not stunt, perhaps some other word may be suited for it. My comments on it would still be the same.
So organising a peaceful protest seems to me to be fully within their remit and entirely appropriate?
It’s about as fundamental as you can get when it comes to exercising people’s rights to stand up for what they believe in, peacefully but firmly.
Despite the fact that their areas of focus are in the digital realm, sometimes you can’t beat the power of in-person organising IRL.
Edit: I’d be interested to hear what you think they should be doing that they’re not. (Genuinely, not trying to bait you!)
I don’t see anything wrong with these awareness raising events but what else could they be doing from your perspective?
Informing and legally fighting for the user — seemingly the "informing the user" will be more cost effective in the Apple case.
They have billions of dollars for legal costs...
Most proposals they object to are trying to solve real problems. I almost never see the EFF propose better ways to solve those problems. They just raise objections to everyone else's proposed solutions.
And those objections are often just low effort implausible slippery slope arguments. It is pretty easy to make a slippery slope argument for pretty much anything that has it leading to a dystopian nightmare.
Legislators and policy makers tend to pay more attention to people with solutions, even bad solutions, than to people who just object to everything, especially when those objections are low quality.
That's not their job though, providing solutions and listening to citizen and NGO feedback is the job of the politicians.
2) can you provide an example of a 'slippery slope' that did not come to fruition? Rhetorical devices and hyperbole are exactly how you make abstract technical concerns feel real to an average 65 year old congressperson
To start, if the problem is 'doing something wrong' vs 'status quo', simply stopping the 'doing something wrong' is a proposal
Nevermind the many concrete recommendations which do occur- support for net neutrality is one clear example i can recall from memory, I'm sure they are others.
Also:
has clear examples of cases impacting policy which eff have been involved in
and:
https://www.eff.org/pages/tools
has some very important tools for internet privacy, some of which which have made a huge impact
Why does their need to be a better solution in the case of the Apple CSAM phone scanning debacle? The solution is to just not do it.
If Apple is so worried about illegal material being uploaded to iCloud, they can just modify their iCloud encryption logic to give themselves access and scan the material on their own servers when it's uploaded. They have access to the unencrypted content either way, so it's fundamentally no less private. Actually, it's more private because at least Apple wouldn't be giving themselves access to content on my private property.
One particular area where I get the impression they have a specific measurable impact is in their legal support on certain cases:
https://www.eff.org/legal-victories
Then there is (for example) their practical solution of how to help increase HTTPS adoption with their excellent software tool, CertBot, which helps automate LetsEncrypt certificates:
I’d note that it seems to be exceptionally rare for a politically active organisation to be able to both campaign on issues at a high level AND produce technically viable and relevant software tools. Those are two wildly different areas of expertise, and yet they do this, with a clear overarching narrative.
In terms of proposing more specific solutions to problems they protest against, I don’t have a strong view on whether you’re right to emphasise this or not. Maybe there is more they could do here. But in terms of the larger question of “are EFF effective?” I’d say they are demonstrably having a positive impact.
Is it enough? I don’t know. How do you measure it… Can they do better? Almost certainly.
I'm open to new information... so if you know something I don't, is there a more concise answer to "who really funds the EFF"?
> One likely explanation, Glaser reasoned, was that most of these groups depended on funding from the very same corporations that they should be criticizing. Over the past years, EFF has taken millions in funds from Google and Facebook via straight donations and controversial court payouts that many see as under-the-radar contributions. Hell, Google co-founder Sergey Brin’s foundation gave EFF at least $1.2 million.
> But the reason for EFF’s silence on the Facebook surveillance and influence scandal goes deeper—into the business model of the internet itself, which from the outset has framed user privacy as being threatened by ever-imminent government censorship, as opposed to the protection of users and their data from wanton commercial intrusion and exploitation. Put simply, the lords of the internet care very little about user privacy—what they want to preserve, at the end of the day, is their own commercial license against the specter of government regulation of any kind.
If you think the EFF is not an effective organization, it might be worthwhile explaining your opinion so as the influence charitable donations that could be spent differently. I think the EFF misses the mark pretty frequently, personally. But they're net positive.
Charity Navigator gives them 4 out of 4 stars: https://www.charitynavigator.org/ein/043091431.
If the EFF lost every single case and donated half their money to their political opponents, then this rating would still be unchanged provided they disclosed everything and didn't take much of a cut for overhead.
I no longer feel this way. They got heavily partisan in the last few years and their statements on online censorship are weak and incoherent.
Why is their website on censorship (https://onlinecensorship.org/) abandoned and only contains examples from one side of the political spectrum?
Why are their lawyers participating in pro-censorship industry panels?
Where was EFF when New York Post's reporting on Hunter Biden laptop was censored by Twitter and Facebook? That was completely unprecedented, probably the biggest case of big tech censorship ever. (And yes, that reporting was accurate, contrary to what many here probably have heard: https://rumble.com/vmteq5-new-proof-emerges-about-the-hunter... .)
Where is EFF when YouTube relentlessly deletes educational videos, congressional testimonies and interviews with doctors when they say something "prohibited" about Covid-related topics?
EDIT: Ah the sad irony of you being downvoted for this comment... I guess the balance has been restored! Sigh...
Except exactly 0 articles were written outside of them writing an article about it themselves. Where is the 'lots of publicity'? They generate just as much when they write and article about anything in general.
It was also covered by MacRumors: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/09/24/eff-apple-park-banner-c...
But this on-device scanning proposes to undermine that.
Also strongly because Apple set itself up as a supervillian over right to repair & closed ecosystems - and as an IP bully cage fighter.
Moved my company away from macOS to ARCH. Personally I don't have to wait to see the results of an systemic marketing and pr over product people approach.
Just read today Tim internal memo on The Verge.
Quote: There was much to celebrate, from our remarkable new product line-up to our values driven work around climate change, racial equity, and privacy.
Thanks. I am out of this.
I think we differ in our thoughts about what should be done about this, but you’re not wrong here.
They do know that: - The event was all pre-recorded - Nobody was there to see it. People were either at home or inside watching the keynote.
They should have picked a better time to spend the money.
> Why EFF did this is to get journalists to get a story to write about the issue. Nobody involved cared whether anyone at Apple saw it.
...what? the EFF is why this is on HN right now
I do not pretent to know what their motivation in doing so is, but I for one appreciate them bringing it to attention, 3 days after the EFF published it, in turn 7 days after the actual event itself.
It was unnoticed at the event itself, barely noticed when they wrote a story about it and is only now noticed thanks to being upvoted on here.
Nothing else will persuade them to stop this madness.
https://www.google.de/maps/@37.3365725,-122.013226,437m/data...
When they see people exercising those freedoms they are often alarmed and quickly write their politicians to ensure those freedoms are curbed.
the parent is clearly one of those authoritarians.
Here's a fun (?) fact: the FAA explicitly refuses to define the term "congested." In one case, they actually claimed that an area with one person was congested. Not sure if that held up on appeal. In any event, they've stated their desire to retain "enforcement flexibility" which, to me, is kinda BS. I've flown over a lot of areas where it wasn't obvious whether it counted as congested or not, and that 500' made a difference. (Next to a mountain, for example.)
This area, though, is definitely congested.
Unless you're talking about specifically thinking it looks too low in the photos, in which case I would assume it's just a case of their doing a good job planning the positions for two different flights to get great photos of one from the other that are framed well around the Apple locations.
I think the fact it was downvoted was because some people precieved it as criticism of EFF. This is not true. I support EFF and personally do not use iPhone as a matter of principle. I was just curios about FAA regulations since I do not see many low-flying private airplaines over the Bay Area and asked an honest technical question.
There, saved you a click.
What about MXX ultra-mega processors, they are life saving and worth reading million articles with rumors and speculations.
You live in a house/home that was produced by the use of fossil fuels. Likely every single thing all around you wherever you are right this second is made of or with fossil fuels.
Plastics, the building, soaps, lotions, the table and chair, the lamps and lightbulbs, the cables, the microwave and oven/stove, the carpet/flooring, your clothing, any makeup you use, the toilet paper, deodorant, all your food (even produce), the packaging of your food, the preservatives that are used to feed you in your city that is so far away from food sources, … and on and on and on. … ALL use and made with fossil fuels.
At least my donations are being used so they can have some fun doing shit tier youtube clickbait 'stunts'. I am looking forward to the 'its just a prank bro' series.
The Electronic Frontier Foundation is the leading nonprofit organization defending civil liberties in the digital world. Founded in 1990, EFF champions user privacy, free expression, and innovation through impact litigation, policy analysis, grassroots activism, and technology development. EFF's mission is to ensure that technology supports freedom, justice, and innovation for all people of the world.
I would rather see them fly in with a lawsuit on durring apples keynote than fly a plane overhead for a photo op.