Serbia surveillance law urgently withdrawn | Hacker News Reader

Serbia surveillance law urgently withdrawn

b92.net

The law was withdrawn after everyone noticed its contents: https://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2021&mm=09&dd...

Edit: probably a better article to explain the withdrawal: https://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2021&mm=09&dd...

I know very little about Serbian politics, is this genuinely gone for good or will they just try to reintroduce it later or by other means?

More likely than not, the bill will sit in a drawer waiting for the perfect reason, or distraction, necessary to be pushed through.

I don't believe it will ever be forgotten. The PM in the article says he withdraws it as he's facing elections in 6 months, not for any other reason. He's got a strong support among the elderly and/or "conservatives" so it is expected for him to win those elections. Once he does win, I'm sure he'll try to reintroduce the same thing.

The capital of Serbia is being covered in surveillance cameras for some time now, a "gift" from Chinese friends, and I don't think they'd let the technology sit unused, especially that the overall unrest of his opposition is rising.

Small correction: the guy was the PM until 2017. now he's the president (but basically the Big Boss since 2012.)

You're right. I stopped tracking his formal roles (or caring in any capacity about them) since the time when the most prestigious position in the state was "the first vice-president of the government" (his, at the time) and the running joke was that everyone, including the PM and the president, were eyeing that position if they wanted to advance their career further.

It might come back but it will have to be another law. The current law prevents the executive branch from doing mass surveillance without a warrant.

They already installed more than a thousand (there is FIOA law in Serbia, but the official number is designated as state secret) Huawei cameras through Belgrade (a city of 2M), but they are (at least officially) not doing automatic biometric matching currently.

In general, the politics scene is completely broken - there is one (ruling) party that allegedly bribes/blackmails people that work in the public sector to vote for them.

You're never sure, it's always a drama and thriller with any kind of political decision with the current dictatorship, no matter how minute the decision is. Even though the government has backed off with the law, the explanation mentions "foreign powers preparing a blood bath in Belgrade using the law just as a reason for it, just because they don't want Serbia to prosper". The minister of internal affairs says that people give much more data when "they go to an embassy and squeal for a visa". It's always some mystical powers working against our benefit, good thing we have such a protective government...

As a Serb I have to say that the way our governmental officials speak for the local newspapers always feels like I am in the 4chan thread. Especially Vulin.

It sounds like my boomer parents trying to lay the guilt trip on thick.

>"...foreign powers preparing a blood bath in Belgrade using the law just as a reason for it, just because they don't want Serbia to prosper"

Is that an actual quote from an elected official in Serbia?

Really? The population of all of Serbia[0] is less than that of Hong Kong, less than that of London and less than that of New York.

The GDP of all of Serbia is also ~1/6 of Hong Kong, is less than 1/10 of London, and 1/30 of New York.

As such, my guess is that Serbia isn't very important to "foreign powers" at all. Certainly not enough for a "blood bath" or even harsh words. And certainly not as a result of proposed internal surveillance laws. Such a statement is ridiculous on its face.

Does the population of Serbia actually buy into that sort of rhetoric? I'm genuinely curious.

N.B. I don't have anything against Serbia or Serbs in particular. I know that historically there have been sectarian issues in the Balkans and the Serbs were caught up in that, but I'm pretty sure that like everyone else, most Serbs just want to have a decent life and raise their kids in relative safety and security.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Serbia

Edit: Added the missing link.

Pretty much. I didn't copy and paste the quote, but those are the words used.

You and I understand what you just wrote about GDP in relation to Hong Kong and London, but a vast majority of the population is severely limited in the way they consume information. Internet is widespread, but it is severely underutilized for any useful purpose, and the Serbian web scene is also flooded with pro-government portals. Also, a great deal of population (I can't say how much, but just empirically) has little exposure to any kind of western lifestyle, the only foreign countries they might visited would be Bulgaria or Greece on holidays. It's easy to convince people that life is good in Serbia. Especially because the government doesn't use Hong Kong or Austria to compare, but Croatia or Albania.

Wouldn't Serbia lag on every single indicator behind Croatia?

Yes, as carefully orchestrated by the Croatian government, who got its EU/Nato friends to make everything maximally hard for the Serbian people and economy.

Or, at least, that's how I assume the narrative goes?

At least younger generation doesn't seem to fall for that. Croatia is packed full with seasonal workers from Serbia.. and croatian workers left for other countries. Not ideal, but it is what it is.

If you're creative enough, you can always pull out an indicator, even artificial, to show progress. For example GDP increase during a period in absolute values. That doesn't make any sense without considering size/population of Serbia and Croatia and what's that in relative terms. Or the average salary in Serbia and Bulgaria. Yes, they're comparable, but key items are cheaper in Bulgaria, as well as taxes. The average salary in Sofia is also much higher then in Belgrade, and the lowest pension is higher than in Serbia. You get the picture, you can always dig up a metric and declare a glorious victory of our people led by our fearless leader.

Not to mention the government has some genuinely skilled professionals, beside sheer lunatics like Vulin, the minister of interior. By professionals I mean manipulators like the minister of finance. He's a skilled manipulator, even tied to Panama Papers, domestic violence, illegal demolition and a boat load of concealed wealth. If I had the need to produce some good quality smoke and mirrors, he would be the first guy I would call.

>Does the population of Serbia actually buy into that sort of rhetoric?

By and large, yes. Serbia has an aging population and especially older people (who constitute a large part of the current regime's voter base) are susceptible to this narrative of foreign powers trying to keep Serbia down. It's a tried and true authoritarian spin, persisting for decades in these areas. It doesn't help that historically, foreign powers were prone to aggressing against Serbia.

Younger people obviously don't fall for this (better informed, Internet-native), but they're more apathetic than anything. One cause for this is a lack of good alternative political options; the opposition is mainly people who've been in power before and were just not much better than what we have now.

If you could rally people behind an uncompromised, clean-slate political option you'd break the apathy, a critical mass of voters would emerge quickly and I believe Vucic and his cronies would fall in a heartbeat. But sadly nothing of the sort exists.

>> Does the population of Serbia actually buy into that sort of rhetoric?

> By and large, yes. Serbia has an aging population and especially older people

You mean those who remember Clinton bombing passenger trains to make up for the mistakes of US/NATO/EU in dealing with Bosnia?

It's not a stretch once you've been through that. Besides, a lot of people in the US still thinking Putin changed actual votes in the 2016 election. So, yeah, people are susceptible to this kind of stuff and it's not new.

It uses the old trick that good propaganda should have at least some truth to it. The reasons you listed are likely why it is finding fertile ground.

Considering large portions of Belgrade are still in ruins to this day due to NATO bombings, it's hard to escape the constant reminders of what "foreign powers" have already done to them.

What you just described is the biggest damage done by the '99 bombing. I dare to say larger than any material damage. That's the thing that pushed Serbs on the other side of the "west/east dichotomy" and any kind of marketing campaign will hardly paint Western countries as friends or allies. That's valuable ammunition put into hands of local populists. Not that some European leaders mind them ruling Serbia. Would you believe that there is a considerable number of people not willing to get vaccinated by Pfizer or Astra Zeneca Covid vaccines because "those people first bombed us, they're trying to poison us now"?

Yes.

I'd believe the same reaction in Afghanistan, too.

Probably not an apt comparison. Serbia actually is a unified state of sorts, Afghanistan is not and never really has been. How unified states and collections of tribes and warlords react to such things are quite different.

Not true. Pretty much the only thing that is in "ruin" is the old defense ministry building which is kept that way for the current governments propaganda purposes.

No I've been to Belgrade recently and there are no more bombing ruins to speak of. All of that was cleared years ago. In fact there's a lot of new construction happening in the waterfront area.

Ah, I stand corrected. Been a few years since I visited. At the time, everyone I met seemed to be feeling like a victim of the bombings and harboring some resentment at the west.

Many Serbians do still feel like victims and harbor some resentment at the west. But the 1999 NATO bombings were just one incident in a long litany of complaints (both real and imagined) going back centuries.

They also resent being used as a geopolitical pawn by Russia and China.

I can confirm there were some people who resented Americans/West when I went there. Luckily my Serbian coworkers would shut them up.

At least I wasn’t Turkish. They definitely resent 500 years of Turkish rule.

The younger generation is much more forward thinking.

Two world wars started there. Strategically its more valuable land than Israel.

Which is the second?

>As such, my guess is that Serbia isn't very important to "foreign powers" at all. Certainly not enough for a "blood bath" or even harsh words. And certainly not as a result of proposed internal surveillance laws. Such a statement is ridiculous on its face.

Most people who live in Serbia remember being bombed by the NATO...

>Most people who live in Serbia remember being bombed by the NATO...

That's as may be. And not something someone soon forgets.

But it doesn't obviate my point that "foreign powers" generally don't care what happens in Serbia.

They don't until they do, and when they do it is too late to do something about it.

It's rhetoric used back in Yugoslavia, and probably other dictatorships as well. It's always "foreign enemy" to keep the current agenda going. Serbia still has characters from ex-yu wars in high politics. It's sad actually. I hope Serbia gets rid of that and let people prosper.

That strategy has been used throughout the decades after WW2, including in various parts of Croatia to help instigate secession. Maybe it has to do something with the mentality of the region? There is a fantastic movie [1] by Emir Kusturica that absolutely nails the way of thinking, where a protagonist lives in a bunker believing the war never ended.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_(1995_film)

Geopolitically, the region of former Yugoslavia is extremely valuable, historically as well as in the present. Sadly, I expect renewed trouble here in the upcomming decade

Serbia isn't too important in terms of GDP, population, or military power. But a significant amount of EU trade passes through Serbia, and migrants from the Middle East use Serbia as a route to reach the EU. Since the EU has blocked Serbian accession largely over the Kosovo issue, both Russia and China are now trying to pull Serbia into their spheres of influence in order to gain more leverage over Europe.

The population of Serbia is generally pretty cynical about their government and doesn't believe the rhetoric. But they do believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories about manipulation by shadowy foreign powers.

In Serbia, for a ruling class (politicians, judges, attorneys, police), laws are more like a lax guidelines so even if this is a step back for them in the end nothing fundamentally changes.

> All together, they can't collect 10 percent, and the law has been in a procedure... I didn't look at the law, not a single word. We\'ll see what the law will be in the future.

That's a direct quote from Vucic... wow. Might as well say, it's election season so I had nothing to do with this. Nothing else to see here people, move along.

He wants to be seen as a savior, just as all dictators do.

The Share foundation posted about it as well: https://www.sharefoundation.info/en/draft-withdrawal-a-step-...

I would like to invite the public not to focus solely on the matter of cameras - especially those who should have realized their territory is full of them and there is a fait accompli to be managed -, and to also notice the proposals that tend to compromise responsibility of powers hence increase the odds of corruption: nameless law enforcement officers (Serbia, this case), criminalization of complaint against them (e.g. Spain after Mariano Rajoy), criminalization of recording them (a number of European Countries - while in the USA I understand it is called basic precaution)...

It would be interesting to know how lows that back inside corruption pass into being, and how does dynamic of citizens allow that to happen.

Easily. Speaking for Croatia's situation but I'm sure it is similar to Serbia.

Say you have general elections. You have some regional politicians you can vote for etc, and maybe some of those people get into parliament. Some get in government, some don't. But once they get in parliament, they are responsible to their own party. Not you and me, just themselves. So they can do absolutely whatever they want, with no responsibility. You have absolutely no chance nor mechanism to recall or replace those politicians. Only their party can do it. So you've guessed it, we have "democracy" every 4 years. And each day between those elections we have oligarchy.

Back to our politicians. If they are in government, even better, they will introduce laws that will pretty much always pass (as the government has a majority, simple or 3/4 doesn't usually matter), nobody scrutinizes those laws and they will introduce stuff in them authoritarians have wet dreams about. Note here, I didn't say that the laws are written by complete morons, they are not. They are written specifically to introduce corruption, legalize what was criminal act before, or establish monopolies on trading goods or similar.

Eg. We have an army of inspectors. And a lot of stuff is left to "inspector's discretion". Or we have a lot of prohibitive clauses like: "you cannot build a house in an area less than 30m from the shore line. But you can do whatever you like if you get a special permit from the ministry (and that means the Minister himself). So yeah, you have mansions with private beaches all over. It just boils down to who you know and how much you can pay. If you're playing by the rules you're completely hosed and you're a fool, and I mean that. Too bad it took me 25 years to realize that.

So also you wonder why citizens don't do something to fight that? There are multiple reasons.

First, the government is the biggest employer by far. I don't know the fresh statistic but we have nr of government workers which is at least 4x larger than Germany's. And we have 4 million people. So there is a good chance that I'm working for the government or someone close to me is working (or even both). Say something bad, and you'll get fired, good luck getting another job.

Second, courts and judiciary branch is also corrupted and completely not responsible to citizens (at all!) so they do whatever they want or pass judgement whatever they want (especially in the case of high profile politicians). So no politician ever gets prison time. Ok, one got prison time out of hundreds of cases.

Third, people are not that hungry yet. There were some protests, but frankly, people here don't know how to protest. Even if people protest it is usually looked down upon them or they protest only for their benefit (say medical workers), not for a general problem.

Fourth, police is corrupted. They have no problem beating down insignificant people, and completely ignore ruling class.

All in all, it is a ugly spiral of bad things and I'm afraid it won't be solved until some war. War resets some laws, deals new cards, removes some bad guys as well (usually paid many times over by everyone else)...

Huh, that looks more like description of a very large mafia structure than a democratic government.

Basically it is. Just with a nicer face. EU (especially Germany) tolerates us because they want their villas on "our" absolutely beautiful coast and islands, and a hard border to stop the immigrants (our police is pushing them back very hard and very ugly but that doesn't make the news). One might think that I'm simplifying, but unfortunately it is what it is.

I find it troubling that a dictatorship like this is expected to be allowed into the European Union by 2025. There ought to be stricter requirements for human rights infractions to join...

Serbia is far from a dictatorship. Otherwise these propositions wouldn't be met with internal outrage that influences the progression of the law.

There are different kinds of dictatorships.

Serbia is externally sponsored one. Angela Merkel visited just recently, and EU, on paper gives support. In exchange Vucic is doing whatever is needed, and they look the other way while he does his moves.

OCCASIONALLY he oversteps his limitations, and his sponsors give him slap on the wrist.

It is not a dictatorship, at worst it is authoritarian, and at best a it is broken democracy. Some parts of the government are better, some are worse.

It's degrading on a daily basis, literally.

The biggest problem with dictatorships, it that most people only notice it is actually one when it is too late.

Even back home in Portugal, I fear that when my generation is gone, the one that still felt how it used to be part of one is gone, newer ones will eventually repeat the errors of the past.

1923 goverment was seen as a liberation one that actually fixed things, but that was in the early years.

Serbia in EU will not happen in 2025, and probably not even in 2050. Corruption rate is high, and chapters requirement to get in EU are far from completion, some things are even more complex as status of Kosovo that simply wont be solved by 2025. So, Chinese and Russian influence will grown in that part of the world, which is kind of sad as the largest companies opening now are heavy polluters. although to be fair, some western companies as Rio Tinto are the same so ...

Poverty and more misery by heavy industry go hand by hand ...

I should've included this link in the original comment, but better late than never I suppose!

Serbia is actually expected to join in 2025, far fetched as that might seem to you and me

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Serbia_to_the_E...

"Chapters Closed - 5.9% complete"

eu is not far from the same atrocities to human rights in terms of surveillance

What's troubling there is that the EU has so many partners that are dictators. Angela Merkel visited that country only days ago and as most European countries was quite cosy in her relationship with the current Serbia government.

“Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

Pushing Serbia away from Eu (democracy'ish), would push Serbia into hands of Russia & China (authoritarian'ish).

I know whos influence on Serbia I would prefer. (for my self (eu) and for Serbia)

They'll never be in the EU with the state Serbia is currently in. Kosovo is a hard stop anyway, the EU doesn't allow (anymore) countries with land disputes to enter.

It might end up like Turkey, a country that's a perpetual prospective member.

Agree, although I doubt EU actually cares about human rights. Power, greed, control and money is what drives the modern day globalized economy.

No one expects that - at best EU wants to limit Russian and Chinese influence so they pour some money and pay lip service about enlargement. On the other site our government doesn't want to enter EU either - it likes to get some money and to kick can down the road as long as possible while flirting with EU membership, Russia and China. So everybody is fine with status quo.

This will not happen until Kosovo is somehow magically solved. But hey even Northern Macedonia and Greece found peace so who knows

I think the thing that’s baffling me is this: why? What’s the emergency, fake or otherwise, that governments are using to become so totalitarian. Seems like they’re just … going for it without even a fig leaf to hide behind.

Mostly a) contracts to implement technologies b) watching people who could potentially expose corruption.

Again, not what I was saying.

Usually there’s a cover story for such actions. A Reichstag fire, or a terrorist attack that makes a turn towards authoritarianism a necessity. I don’t see how one exists here other than “NATO scary”.

Or a pandemic for that matter.

They missed the boat if that was the plan.

I think you are missing the point. Authoritarianism is not a goal, but certainly helps. They just want money. If money become worthless, then so the plan.

I disagree strongly with this. I think authoritarianism is a goal for a lot of people. It wouldn’t be such a consistent threat if it wasn’t something regularly sought after. Some people crave power, others crave a strong man to protect them and guide their lives.

Emergency is that if current regime loses the elections, they will all have to be persecuted for various law violations.

It's a fight for survival.

That’s the real reason, yes. But usually such moves are paired with a Reichstag fire for a cover story.

I guess nowadays it is much easier to sow FUD thanks to modern technology if there is a will. No need for a main enemy, many smaller crises will do to supply a constant "state of alarm".

For biometric surveillance I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it's happening at some level of government in the UK, I vaguely remember a bit of outrage about such things in London and the government backing down, but do we really expect the intelligence services to follow rules anymore? The way liberal democracies are going there's probably already some secret law allowing it to occur.

I think the orientation towards "one camera per scenery" in the UK predates the 2001 western revolution.

It only works on honest people. Russian spies enter and deploy weapons of mass destruction without any difficulty.

I'm taking the fatalistic position on these developments. Any tool that can increase power will eventually be used. Maybe not in this law, maybe not in this exact shape, but inevitably. In the long run, there is a clear trajectory towards surveillance and authoritarianism. Is there a way to change this trajectory, to permanently prevent this from happening? I can't think of one...

It's not a big surprise to me and I think this is linked to the fact that Serbia is one of China's biggest partner in Europe.

I can easily imagine that chinese companies now want to export their tech, including surveillance tech, to other countries and that they're lobbying for it.

Glad it was withdrawn that easily.

I am not sure why are you being downvoted. Mass surveillance in Belgrade exist for some years and China helped the government with implementation. Serbia will continue to buy surveillance equipment from China regardless of this law.

Serbia is definitely becoming a Chinese colony. China is placing dirty industries here, effectively cutting transportation costs to the EU and reducing pollution in China. Also, a few years ago there were official government proposals (like this) to bring Chinese police to Serbia.

Unfortunately, the EU absolutely doesn't care about any of this and actively supports the Vucic regime.

Thanks for your support, but just wanted to point out that Serbia is not part of EU yet.

> I can easily imagine that chinese companies now want to export their tech, including surveillance tech

And I wouldn’t stop there. Why wouldn’t China want to profit from the surveillance of others as well? It would give them an edge, at least ostensibly, and a way to keep spreading their tentacles and to displace the American empire.

> it will become the first European country conducting permanent indiscriminate surveillance of citizens in public spaces

Formally, no. Large Russian cities (Moscow in particular) already employ this technology on mass scale.

An acquaintance in Moscow had been hiding from police. Agents showed up at his apartment next day wielding photos taken by the building surveillance camera.

It's clear the Chinese are trying to undermine the EU by introducing these kinds of systems in a aspiring EU member state.

BTW the EU isn't directly against such systems. There's always the loophole that it CAN be used in the fight against "crime" (especially child porn, the new witchcraft).

I genuinely don't understand how lawmakers do not see that they are the ones who will lose the most from privacy-invading laws.

As a political person, the less you control what's being recorded about you, the more it's likely that it is going to be used against you.

Would anyone be elected if their entire google search history were made transparent?

I certainly wouldn't. Now add location history, and everything you say near a smartphone...

Control over who gets elected moves to the security apparatus. There's always one party for which that's a feature.

Tracing everyone's movement and life, and putting that into database, can be used for creating the perfect sims simulation :) Anyway real time cam face recognition can be passed easily, som hat, sunglasses and the new classic - mask. Using covid pass- will use someone else's qr, it doesn't have to allowed, but will be placed in that database like that person was there. Also face recognition can be manipulated and used for targeted attacks. And selling info about someone's movement...well..."nothing to hide?" - everyone has something to hide, like from his wife...

I wish there was some kind of soaking in period with laws like this (maybe even all laws). Something like

“Those who implement new laws are first themselves subject to them for one year before being rolled out to the general public.”

Perhaps it might slow the descent into an insane techno-dystopia.

Of course that would never happen though.

So as a dev is reponsible for alpha testing before possibly unleashing it to the public and possibly ruining someone's minute, you want lawmakers to test their own laws first before possibly ruining someone's life?

Come to think of it, car makers, product creators and such are also responsible for testing before unleashing to the public. I wish it wasn't such an amusing notion with lawmakers but good luck with that.

Yep, there it is… forget all the half measures and flouncing about, go straight for the total surveillance of all people all the time in all situations. Cut out the middle man.

Anyone who is alarmed by this law but not by vaccine passports able to explain why? Genuinely confused.

In what way is this even remotely similar to vaccine passports?

Legislating mass surveillance and vaccine passports look very similar if the digital implementations are any guide.

Serbia's mistake was proposing this via law, instead of just forcing the population to track themselves with COVID check-ins and then tapping into the data:

https://theconversation.com/police-access-to-covid-check-in-...

You must realize that in the developed world, we already track ourselves by virtue of using credit cards at every business we visit.

How is tapping into that any more difficult than a COVID app? The three major credit rating agencies already have complete knowledge of every place I visit, and every single thing I buy.

They will happily sell this information in aggregate to any Tom, Dick, or Harry who wants it, and hand over every detail in response to a police warrant.

"Yeah, but it's not the government so it's fine"

Just thought I'd proceed the discussion with the argument that will inevitably be brought forward.

The government has full access to this data, though. Whether or not a private agency with a profit motive, or a public health agency with a public health motive collects it first is irrelevant.

Just pay cash?

In real life an increasing amount of businesses don't accept cash anymore.

Business are legally required to accept cash. I pay cash all the time at gas stations or for small amounts (< $20).

Covid adds a bit of friction to this but I have yet to be refused a transaction because of a cash payment.

That depends on where you are. In the UK, while any debt can be paid in cash by law, there is no requirement for a business to refuse to accept cash for a purchase. There are some places that don't accept cash, some coffee shops, most cinemas: I guess that's more because they expect their staff to pilfer. Personally, I just don't use those places.

For anyone interested, that's the definition of legal tender: something which must be accepted as a payment method if offered for repayment of a debt.

> Business are legally required to accept cash.

If you're in the US, this isn't true. Businesses are only required to accept cash for debts, i.e. where you pay after services are rendered. That's why dollar bills specifically say "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private."

The gas station can refuse your cash payment for a candy bar because there's no "debt" yet. A restaurant can't refuse to take cash unless they make you pay before they bring you food.

It's not common to do, especially since cash is so easy and cheap to handle, but it is legal.

> Covid adds a bit of friction to this but I have yet to be refused a transaction because of a cash payment.

Earlier in the pandemic, most places near me had signs up that they weren't taking cash because of COVID.

In Australia you have to check-in with a QR code to visit children's playgrounds:

https://www.knox.vic.gov.au/whats-happening/news/playgrounds...

Okay, so in addition to leaving a trail for every business you patronize, this adds a few non-business entities to that trail.

Qualitatively, the difference between the two is academic. I'd take pearl-clutching on this subject seriously if we didn't already scan ourselves into every establishment we patronize, by swiping a piece of plastic. This ship has sailed decades ago, thanks to cash-back, and not actually having to deal with cash, either on my end, or the merchant's end, and thanks to everyone owning a cellphone (Which is a device that broadcasts your location 24/7.)

Speak for yourself, I use cash.

What do you do when, say, the TSA, or the police, or some equivalent thereof steals it, as was discussed in another thread?

I take it you also don't use any online service, because 99% of them don't take cash? Don't own a cellphone, because that broadcasts your location data 24/7? Don't own any device that actively scans for wi-fi networks?

Your government already has fingers in all of those data sources.

When the police steal my cash, I'll take that hit (it has never happened yet). I do not have a cellphone nor does my laptop scan for WiFi networks. I do need to get that cash, so I do go to cash machines to get it from my account. Those machines are generally close to where I live, but I guess the state already has my address, so not much new is revealed there (my location near where I live a couple of times a week).

I do buy a few things (books, DVDs) online, and pay with a card -- that reveals my address to that business, but that would be the same if I sent cash (or a cheque), they do need an address to which to deliver. As I say, I assume the state has my address, but there's no need to give them my location when I'm not there (nor to tell them when it is I'm not there).

So returning to your assertions:

"we already track ourselves by virtue of using credit cards at every business we visit"

speak for yourself, I pay with cash

"The three major credit rating agencies already have complete knowledge of every place I visit, and every single thing I buy"

That's your choice, they have no idea where I go, nor what I buy except that I'm rather keen on French novels and 1960s Italian films. Mind you, since I'm in the UK those suspicious activities might land me in trouble with the Brexit police [looks nervously out of the window].

What's the problem for web store to take cash? Delivery person can take it.

The problem is police overreach, not COVID track/trace.

One step at a time

The problem is always overreach. The problem of surveillance isn't a problem at all if you could trust every actor to do things right, it's just that you can't.

Bingo, like most political problems it boils down to human nature.

Right, surveillance needs to go both ways. The watchers need to be watched.

> The problem of surveillance isn't a problem at all if you could trust every actor to do things right, it's just that you can't.

I disagree. The problem of surveillance still stands even if you trust each and every single actor directly or indirectly involved in it. The critical aspect is that surveillance is made possible through significant investments in infrastructure, and infrastructure outlives actors and governments and regimes. Once you have the infrastructure in place, all it takes is a bad actor to weaponized it and use it to oppress and control you.

Your argument is contradictory. If you trust 'each and every actor directly or indirectly involved in it' then by definition there can be no bad actor in the future to oppress you.

My point is that actors can and do change over time.

Just because you trust who is in charge today that does not mean that said person/organization will continue indefinitely as-is.

Does this guy have ties to China? Serbia has been developing ties with China for some time. Who would provide the technology for this mass surveillance? Certainly not the Serbian economy.

Almost certainly China, the article seems to allude to Huawei tech being used.

I don't have a source for this but in Serbia it's well-known that Vucic and Xi Jinping have a closer-than-expected partnership.

Total surveillance in Serbia bad, in USA good.

It's bad when others spy on others, especially on you. It's good when I spy on others, especially on everyone else.

It actually points to the solution. Surveillance is only convenient when it works one way. As soon as you add counter surveillance to the mix it becomes more tricky. Now you can watch but others will be watching you watch others. Add some laws to the mix and now you actually have to stick to them because others will watch you break the law otherwise. Fine if you control everybody else (i.e. you are a dictator) but less so if those others are your political opponents, other countries, or anyone who might not be under your influence that can call you out on what you are doing; especially if there are consequences to you breaking the law.

I prefer no surveillance.but since anyone appears to go their way, I vote for legalising surveillance across the board. Just don't force anyone into doing anything and we will be just fine. Secrets can be well kept if they matter so much.

I see your logic though.

Two wrongs don't make a right, do they?

Total surveillance doesn't have to be a bad thing, if it can only be accessed through a court order in order to be used for solving a crime or as evidence in court.

However, I can only see this happening in very developed and transparent democracies. Otherwise it is most likely gonna be abused in every way it can.

Serbia already leans towards being a police state, at least in comparison to other European states, so that would just make the situation there worse.

My problem with it is that once you have total surveillance it is hard to get rid of. And even if I trust the current goverment, do I trust the next?

Even trusted governments can't guarantee that bad actors cannot access the data captured by the surveillance system.

If a government need total surveillance, it is because the government don't trust its people, which is because the people does not trust the government.

This cannot fix trust issues with surveillance, you must solve this with more/better democracy, not police.

No, surveillance is a bad thing period. No exceptions.

There's a big mobster war going on in Serbia (and region) right now, and almost all of the dozens of recent big murder cases were at least partially solved thanks to surveillance cameras, phone tapping and cell towers logs. So surveillance when used for good can be extremely useful tool for justice and increase the safety of the public.

It's the same mentality as with the nuclear plants paranoia. Yes they can be dangerous if protocols fail, and yes that makes them a liability and requires constant care - but it's not a reason to completely ban a technology which also can give so many benefits to the society.

There's a huge difference between deploying cameras in public places so that u can go back and look at the records if something happens, and deploying cameras across the whole city that do real-time biometric identification on a mass scale. Its scary and heart-breaking, and no amount of protocol will make the tech safe from corruption. Frankly anyone that actually believes that these systems wont be abused is delusional at best.

> There's a huge difference between deploying cameras in public places so that u can go back and look at the records if something happens,

Wait a sec, I agree with you, but that's not what the parent comment claims. It says "surveillance is a bad thing period" and that's just not true, some forms of surveillance in some places can both help police and make people feel safer. Would anyone in their right mind rather park their new car in some dark alley, than under the eye of cctv camera? Of course not... so parent commenter made a huge bad generalization and that's the part I was commenting on.

Name one place where it didn't get abused in any way?

Once you build nuclear weapons, then you have to maintain them, and hope the required budget will remain in the future, and that corruption will not disrupt the processes involved.

Once you create repositories collecting data on third parties, you similarly will have to ensure that they will be protected against leaks - that the state may keep track just to be sure does not mean you would ever accept to live in glass walls.

Responsibility wise, if you gave a credit card number to a vendor, you trusted his security measures against leaking, but how about data that was copied without your consent? Who has access, how is it protected, who is responsible?

(Just one of the possible points.)

That's a bit like saying: "I don't mind giving my government absolute power, because my government isn't corrupt absolutely."

Chemical factory in the middle of heavily populated area doesn't have to be a bad thing, if it is properly managed and safety systems are operating perfectly.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com