Using two keyboards at once for pain relief | Hacker News Reader

Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

symboliclogic.io

349 pointsruffrey291 comments

> I tried a few of those Kinesis split keyboards. Too squishy for me. Not far enough apart. The CherryMX Kinesis split keyboard was is too clickey for calls and screenshares. Muscle memory made it difficult to switch.

This is a really cool hack, and I’m happy that the author found a solution for their pain that works for them, but this bit confused me.

Kinesis are keyboards with separated key clusters, but not split keyboards. When one says split keyboard I think they are normally talking about things like the Ergodox EZ/Moonlander which have two physically separate bodies, one for each hand. There are many different models of these with various shapes and sizes, and you can separate them as much as you like. The normal advice is to set them up around shoulder width apart so you aren’t rounding your back to bring your arms together.

Most of these kinds of keyboards also support whatever key switches you prefer, and there are plenty of options that are sufficiently quiet for zoom (pretty much anything linear should do the trick)

I have been using a Moonlander for a couple of years now, and an EZ before that. They are expensive at around $400 but I don’t think I can ever go back. Most of these split keyboards also run QMK so you can setup binds, layers, and generally configure them however you like.

You must be thinking of the Kinesis Advantage. Kinesis has also made split keyboards for a while: https://kinesis-ergo.com/products/#keyboards

I found R-Go Tools Split to be a nice and light keyboard for my mobile rig. The only annoyance was the throbbing light in the corner. But a patch of tape fixed that. The stock cable wouldn't allow placing the parts as far apart as in the article though.

https://www.r-go-tools.com/products/ergonomic-keyboards/r-go...

Thanks, looks interesting. FYI: the FAQ says this about the light: Yes, this is possible. You can do so by pressing the key combination "Fn"+"A".

Thanks, that works. But it's not permanent. My tape is :-)

That looks promising, but I heard that model doesn’t work on Macs. Do you know if that’s correct?

I don't see why it wouldn't. It's a USB keyboard. But I use it on Linux, not Darwin.

The Kinesis Advantage line is as you describe, but there is also the Freestyle line which are actually split

> Kinesis are keyboards with separated key clusters, but not split keyboards. When one says split keyboard I think they are normally talking about things like the Ergodox EZ/Moonlander

Kinesis has also their freestyle-line, which are physically splitted keyboard. But traditionally, the name refers to the split of the key-segments, not the whole keyboard. Until a decade ago, there barely where any real split keyboards, and split segments was the mainstream.

> Most of these kinds of keyboards also support whatever key switches you prefer, and there are plenty of options that are sufficiently quiet for zoom (pretty much anything linear should do the trick)

But even the most silent switch can't compete with the absorption of a normal rubberdome. Stiff matter hitting stiff matter always produces some noise, and most people don't know how to use mechanical keyboards correctly to reduce this.

Is just having a softer touch the answer?

That is half the answer. When I let people try my mechanical keyboards, especially the Cherries, I emphasize that the goal isn't to mash the key until it no longer goes down. Rather, the goal is to stop mashing somewhere between the actuation point (usually ~2mm) and the end of key travel (usually ~4mm). This corresponds to 45-60 grams of force depending on switch type, and staying in this range makes for a relatively quiet experience on quiet switches.

But nothing is going to quiet the sound of switches designed to give audio feedback, such as the Cherry Blues. I do not recommend those for use in an office or even at home with other people at home.

This is incidentally also great advice for gaining dynamic range on a piano

> But nothing is going to quiet the sound of switches designed to give audio feedback, such as the Cherry Blues. I do not recommend those for use in an office or even at home with other people at home.

Do people really get that upset about a keyboard that clicks a bit?

Back when I was in open offices the annoyances were people yelling to each other with me in between, people singing, private phone calls etc. A click wouldn't even have registered.

> > [...] I do not recommend those for use in an office or even at home with other people at home.

> Do people really get that upset about a keyboard that clicks a bit? [...] A click wouldn't even have registered.

Am I the only one who still remembers when typing, even in offices or at home, meant sharp hitting noises with a DING at the end of each line?

Nope, we are many that lived with that :-)

There is a difference between someone pressing a button now and then, and a person that actually writes 8-10 cps. You don't give them an audio feedback keyboard or you will go deaf.

This is why the new hot thing in mechanical keyboards is gasket mounting and PCB relief cuts. There is some progress happening here.

A good desk mat helps too.

I'm glad that this is the way customs are headed. I love my Think6.5 V2. Gasket mounting has been game changing for me.

After Googling for an embarassingly long time I think I'm figuring out what gasket mounting is.. how does that meaningfully changed how the keyboard feels? Just makes the whole typing surface a little flexible / bouncy?

I had to google this as well. It looks like the idea is to move the surface that the key switches attach to, to a sub-assembly, which can then be mounted in a variety of slightly-more-flexible sub-assembly. This is the kind of minutae I would have loved to get into when I was younger. The closest analogy I can think of is a solid body (standard) electric guitar, vs. a semi-hollowbody electric guitar, although the mechanics are very different, ultimately you're attempting to modify the percussive effect by modifying the frame.

https://keyboard.university/200-courses/keyboard-mounting-st...

https://www.sweetwater.com/c592--Semi_hollowbody_Guitars

There are a couple different techniques, but it really all boils down to dampening/softening the bottom out with rubber or silicone somewhere in the case sandwich. It gives it some “give” beyond the travel of the switch. A thick desk mat does this a bit too.

Yes, the board I'm currently using is gasket mount and sitting on a nice thick pad which helps, but what takes it to the next level is U4 Boba Silent linear switches, which are ridiculously quiet. Altogether I barely even hear myself typing, I can't imagine it's terribly audible over video calls.

Are those that better than Realforce and HHKB?

They’re very different so it’s hard to say if they’re better. I find the stock HHKB domes way too light.

> Kinesis has also their freestyle-line, which are physically splitted keyboard. But traditionally, the name refers to the split of the key-segments, not the whole keyboard. Until a decade ago, there barely where any real split keyboards, and split segments was the mainstream.

Indeed, I saw the title of this post and I wondered if the poster was looking for a setup similar to the Freestyle... and it turns out they were!

I made the switch a couple of years ago from a standard layout mechanical to the "Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB" (nominally a gaming keyboard, but I don't use the gaming features) and would not go back. This device can't achieve quite as much separation as the "dual keyboard" approach in this blog entry, but it's not too far off.

As for the switches, in addition to the mechanical version with its various switch options, they also make a rubber dome variant of this keyboard, which happens to be cheaper.

Such an awesome keyboard!!

Just to be clear on the distinction, are we terming 'split segment' the keyboards in two halves that have (roughly) half the usual keys on each device, and saying purist's 'split keyboard' is.. two 'normal' keyboards?

Nothing is 'split' in the latter though? I've never thought 'split keyboard' a misnomer in referring to two pieces that look like a keyboard sawn (often carefully around staggered keycaps) in half, i.e. split?

No. It's hard to explain, but split segment looks like this: https://imgur.com/a/kjWmciy (so, one physical keyboard, just with a very different layout)

Split keyboards are usually 2 separate keyboards with half the key each.

Oh I see, thanks. I have seen those, just didn't think of it - they seem strictly worse than two separate halves to me, the main thing that appeals to me (I don't have one) is positioning either have however, at whatever angle, and differently to the other, to suit me and how I happen to be sitting at the time. Split segment seems to make a big assumption about what people find uncomfortable (narrow/er than shoulders) and offer a different fixed solution.

> (nominally a gaming keyboard, but I don't use the gaming features)

Yeah I gave up and learned to love that there’s a big gaming market for the keyboard I want, even though I don’t want the flashy backlight colors. It’s weird but now I mostly shop for gaming keyboards and then filter out where I can’t turn off the gaming-specific stuff.

If you don’t mind a little DIY effort and effect you can cut the cable between the halves and splice in a longer cable. Had a coworker who did that and was very happy.

I have a kinesis freestyle pro, and it's great. About 18" of separation. I only wish it had a steeper tilt angle.

I always thought full size keyboards should split the alpha keys and put the numpad in the middle. That would drastically improve ergonomics.

that's actually a pretty fresh idea I could get behind.

I am owner of Kinesis Freestyle Pro too. I bought the keyboard with a tilt kit and pads. I am using it with macbook and I must admit that mac layout could be better (option and command keys are too small). Besides that the keyboard itself takes a lot of space on my desk, it is really huge compared to other keyboards that I had (including The Code keyboard).

Split design is definitely a win, but I needed some time to get used to it. After about a month keyboard started to feel natural. To be honest I would like to see a medical research on using various keyboard types. Personally I don't feel much difference compared to typing on macbook. Most problems that I had with my wrists where always connected to using mouse.

I happen to be shopping Kinesis Freestyle keyboards today. A common complaint is the ABS keycaps combined with something in the case design echoes the switch noise, even with Silent Reds.

Lower quality keycaps at the Kinesis price range being be main gripe on the Freestyle Pro.

I opened up my Kenesis Advantage and put in a piece of mass loaded vinyl I had from a different project. I absorbed all the twangy echo.

I used a Freestyle for a while. Great keyboard, terrible keycaps. Would recommend replacing them ASAP.

> But even the most silent switch can't compete with the absorption of a normal rubberdome. Stiff matter hitting stiff matter always produces some noise, and most people don't know how to use mechanical keyboards correctly to reduce this.

I mostly agree. That said, my Keychron K1 (red switches, v3 so this may be out of date) is not noticeably louder to my very noise sensitive ears than a similar Apple low profile keyboard. It’s the first mechanical keyboard I’ve owned that hasn’t drawn laughs or ire in remote meetings.

I suspect the quietness is because the low profile keys bottom out inside the case rather than keycaps hitting the casing. There’s still the sound of the switch, but even if I were a better typist with more sensitive reflexes I’d hear that.

I’ve tried a lot of other “quiet” mechanical keyboards. The Matias one was softer at the expense of having a more rubber dome feel while typing (and like every Matias I’ve owned the switches went glitchy and eventually failed). The other “for the office” (brand I can’t recall) red switch keyboard I had… well, I think it was as annoying to me as everyone else.

And, not trying to shill the product (and again I have no idea if v4 has regressed), but I also have a very noise sensitive puppy who hops up and gets distracty if I so much as bump anything on my desk. She’s just as calm with the K1 as my MBP’s built in keyboard.

The switches might not be to everyone’s liking. But there’s definitely room for mechanical keyboards to be less loud than they are even used less effectively than intended (i.e. me).

I have the Keychron K1 (also red switches) and an Apple keyboard in front of me right now. The K1 is significantly louder at normal typing forces. ~60dB vs ~45dB using a sound meter app.

Fair enough. My measurements were obviously more subjective :)

I have accessibility needs so I use soft keyboard and a trackpad. I keep the keyboard at an angle on the closed laptop but the trackpad was on a flat surface which caused some wrist fatigue.

I join the keyboard and the trackpad together with a double sided tape[1] with a metal scale to the bottom for added rigidity and now I can use both of them at a preferred angle. I no longer have wrist fatigue as I can rest them on a flat surface while both typing and tracking.

[1] https://abishekmuthian.com/accessibility-hack-for-keyboard-a...

It took me years to find a split, ergo-style keyboard with mechanical keys, but I finally did. The freestyles have them, but I don't like the super flat layout.

https://c9ergo.com/

I am loving the split, angled setup with my preferred Cherry MX Blues.

The MS Natural split keyboards are easy to find but aren't satisfyingly clicky mechanical keys just like olden times.

How long do these last?

Edit: "Ergonomic keyboard" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergonomic_keyboard > #Split_keyboard:

> Split keyboards group keys into two or more sections. Ergonomic split keyboards can be fixed, where you cannot change the positions of the sections, or adjustable. Split keyboards typically change the angle of each section, and the distance between them. On an adjustable split keyboard, this can be tailored exactly to the user. People with a broad chest will benefit from an adjustable split keyboard's ability to customize the distance between the two halves of the board. This ensures the elbows are not too close together when typing. [2]

I had the kinesis advantage 3 for a little over a week. I have to say by far the most comfortable keyboard I have every used. I returned it because I didn't have the spare time to "adjust" to the layout. Its funny its been months and I still miss the feeling lol.

A week? Well, how much time do you expect to spend typing over the next 10 years...?

It took about a month or two to adapt IIRC. I would suggest to remap and reconfigure some keys/layout after observing your actual usage. Also change a few uncomfortable application key combos and relearn, especially if you're not using a US layout.

Reprogramming (swapping) keys is easy, but I admit it was a big hassle to also keep a custom layout synced/working between Windows and Linux over the years. But it's great once it's done.

By now I'm owning three kinesis advantage, one at the office, one at home, and one to make sure I never have to type on a flat keyboard ever again if anything breaks. I get RSI just from looking at those.

I also tried a fully split (freestyle2) keyboard, but it didn't work for me. I think it was the lack of the bowl shape.

Kenisis is in the process of launching a refreshed, split version of the Advantage. They have some teaser images on their Twitter.

But they also have more conventional split keyboards (though you can also buy a 90 degree tenting kit to make them weirder again)

My Kinesis Freestyle 2 has a "pivot" hinge that is removable. Once it is removed it allows the two halves to be entirely separate and up to 8" apart. I took the hinge out years ago.

Note, the Kinesis Advantage is the one with "cups" that have keys in them in single keyboard.

The Kinesis Freestyle is split into two halves and unlike the Ergodex or similar it's just a standard keyboard layout which makes jumping back and forth between other computers less of a hassle.

I picked up a Kinesis Freestyle 2 last year, with the longer (20" I think) cable, and it's been wonderful. Standard QWERTY, and the cable is long enough that I'm in a comfortable typing position leaning fully back into my chair with my arms sitting on the armrests.

Only complaint is that the macro buttons off to the side just emit standard key presses (eg Cut sends Control+x), which I guess means I should look into the Freestyle Pro which _is_ programmable :)

take a look at this: https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/product/freestyle-edge/

I think it is a better choice than the pro, as it costs the same once you purchase the wrist rests (which the pro comes with).

You can re-macro every key on the board, and the macro stays with the board if you move it to a new computer.

As a buyer of both the original Freestyle Pro and the Edge (first edition, pre-rgb), I endorse this message. Either keyboard will likely take your pain away, but the Edge is the better option.

The Edge has everything that was missing from the Pro. It truly is the perfect keyboard, in my opinion: split, backlit, mech switches, fully (and easily) programmable, multiple layouts, internal memory, extra macro keys. What more could one ask from a keyboard...? The only shortcoming is that the keycap profile is custom, so it's hard to pimp if you are into color schemes, but that's it. I don't understand why they chose to market it to gamers, when it's the perfect hacker's tool, but I guess them kids are more willing to splash the cash these days.

Plus support.

After dropping coffee on it for the N-th time, I left it outside to dry. I didn't notice that the location I placed it had direct sunlight - plus, it was during the summer.

One of the spacebar keycaps warped to the point of being unusable. I tried several options (including attempting to 3d print a replacement). Was almost giving up, emailed support.

They sent a replacement keycap, for free. For the Freestyle Edge - the one with the blue backlight, that's discontinued.

I'd say the major drawback that it has is the "gaming" name, which makes it awkward to get your company to expense :)

I'll add another drawback: the switches are not removable either. So if you wanted to replace your switches with different ones (for instance, WASD), you really can't (practically).

Kinesis also makes split keyboards. Since they are talking about mushy keys they are clearly talking about the Kinesis Freestyle with membrane keys.

There is a new kinesis freestyle gaming, with LEDs (meh), but also mechanical switches (cherry). I'm very happy with mine.

I'm curious, is the Moonlander enough of an upgrade over the EZ to be worth dropping that sort of money on a second keyboard? What are the big differences you've actually noticed having made the jump?

I don't have any experience with the Ergodox, and I loved the Moonlander when I first got it. But having used it for about 8 months now I really don't like how they've implemented the tenting -- the thumb cluster ends up too far away, making the inner most thumb keys on both sides unreachable (for me).

I'm likely going to replace it with something with better designed thumb clusters when I can (probably a Kyria or maybe a Corne variant).

My Kyria hopefully arrives tomorrow.

I have both. I agree with the gripes about the thumb cluster acting as a pivot, it's not an optimal design but it's plenty comfortable for me.

The big reason I wanted to try it is the thumb layout is more ergonomic and conducive to chording. On the right thumb cluster I map the four keys to 15 bit encoded layer. I don't _use_ all that space, but I have over a thousand keypoints at my disposal.

But I do use the bottom 3 (plus base) quite heavily. It's more ergonomic to move frequent keys to near home rows in a higher space.

Having recently gotten back into mechanical keyboards, partially for ergonomic reasons, I can say the Moonlander so far is the single board I regret purchasing.

Almost $400 for a board that is so poorly designed you have to choose between a usable thumb cluster position or a comfortable tenting angle, because the thumb cluster is used as one of the tenting legs. So unless you have giant hands, it's just a very poor experience compared to some other boards I've tried. For far, far less.

And to fix this, instead of revising the Moonlander, ZSA is happy to sell you an $80 tripod kit, tripods not included.

You can get the benefits of a split board for a _fraction_ of the price by getting something like a Lily58 or a Corne, which have far saner thumb cluster designs, and have plenty of solutions for tenting. And if you're like the author of the linked article who can't handle high travel keys, both of those boards are available with low profile mechanical Choc switches.

Not to discredit your experience, but as another data point: I love my Moonlander. I love it so much, I have two, actually.

Personally, I find the thumb clusters most comfortable in a position that also gives a good tenting angle, but I think criticizing coupling the two is fair.

That said, I'm not sure how the tripod kit would help you solve that one way or the other. I thought it was designed to go on the outside, not where the thumb clusters are.

I have a Lily58 that I’m still getting used to, got any tenting tips? So far I’ve only been putting a towel under the far end to angle it a bit, which is far from ideal.

I have seen people using various different size rubber feet on the bottom to tent their lily, I believe they used a mixture of large rubber bumpers intended for roombas, and the normal small bumpons.

There should also be a variety of 3d printed solutions too, I've seen tenting feet you can screw on to the bottom and cases that let you use large screws on the outside to create tenting legs

Yeah, I can't imagine the Moonlander being a great fit for someone with normal/small hands. I got a Moonlander and happen to love it. Though, I really wish they hadn't decided to make the thumb cluster a tenting leg. I think that's my biggest complaint about it.

ZSA does sell a tenting leg kit that I believe should allow you to swap the thumb cluster screw for a leg, but I haven't tried it myself. It's only $24. Additionally, they have a 3d-printable file for a tenting leg that should work as well, if you happen to have a printer.

The Dactyl Manuform and Ergodox are also decent options for anyone looking for something like the ZSA Moonlander but don't want to deal with the Moonlander's issues. The Lily58 and Corne have far too few keys for my liking, but to each there own.

In fairness to ZSA, I did miss that page on printable files. I do still think it's a little silly to need to print a new leg for the board to remedy probably the biggest design flaw.

>The Lily58 and Corne have far too few keys for my liking, but to each there own.

For what it's worth, I used to think the same thing, and now I happily do all my daily programming work on a Reviung41, which has even less keys than the Corne.

Totally agree with you there. I really think they should start shipping with a second set of "inside" legs for those who want to use a tenting leg instead of using the thumb cluster.

I'll probably get to a smaller key count eventually. I'm almost finished adjusting to the Moonlander now, and it took me almost two months to get used to the loss of the separate F1-11 keys. They're now on the number row in a new layer, so I figure with enough time I'll get used to that and can toss more into other layers, but that's proving to be a slower process for me. I think I've had this board for almost 8 months now (had to look up my shipping info, as I thought it had been much less).

I really do love the fact that the mech keyboard community has spawned so many great keyboards, as it makes it so easy to find something that fits you best, and makes it so easy to customize.

I’m hooked on the ergodox classic, but I’ve used an ergodox variant of some kind for at least 6 years now and won’t go back.

The little ortho-linear keyboards that are popular now make me cringe, they look worse than laptop keyboards.

I was toying with the idea of picking up the moonlander, but it looks kind of big. The wrist rests seem ridiculously large. Can you use the tenting feature without them?

If you take the Moonlander apart, you can probably remove the wrist rests and it would still tent fine.

However large it may seem, the size seems good to me. I only actively use (i.e. place my hand on) maybe 2/3 of it, but the remainder makes it so that the angle is more comfortable than I imagine it would be if it were shorter.

It's worth mentioning I have relatively large hands. If you don't, you might need a fair bit less space.

Though I haven't gotten one yet, the Kyria also has some nice thumb clusters. You can print out the layout[1] to test how it lines up with your fingers.

[1] https://docs.splitkb.com/hc/en-us/articles/360010627159-Can-...

I just 3D printed some wedges to go under my Moonlander: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4769961

I have made my own keyboards before, hand-wired with 3D printed cases, and it's probably 20-40 hours of work; significantly more than the $400 that ZSA charges.

I agree that they messed up the thumb clusters. I used to use an Ergodox and that had a pretty goofy arrangement, and the Moonlander doesn't really improve on it.

This guy seems to have given up too soon. There are also normal spilt keyboards like the UHK. And even cheaper Chinese options like the Mistel Barocco. These Chinese keyboards are what most people should get if they need a split keyboard.

Normal keyboard layout, just split. Connected by a coiled USBC to USBC cable that you could replace with a longer cable.

I use the Mistel which fine for me. The layout never bothered me, just the distance between the halves and the lack of tenting.

They are also programmable which is useful when you can’t use software to remap your keys.

I ordered my UHKv2 in January and ended up buying a Dygma Raise in the meantime while I wait. I'm sure the UHK will be a lovely keyboard, when it finally ships.

I'd love recommendations on a split keyboard with low profile keys. The "normal" angle on keyboards kills my wrists...

Love the mistel. I've been using it for 4 years and it's great!

Well I for one will say I did a lot of research on split boards about a year ago and never came across Mistel. It even has my preferred tenkeyless arrow placement!

Yeah, it’s hard to get information about them and they have the weird names. I only know about them because certain suppliers around here stock them and a friend had some other mechanical keyboard from them.

I got a UHKv1 from an early adopter friend (who had multiple UHKs) and have loved it. It was hard getting used to it at first, but it was the only keyboard that didn't make my forearms ache, when my tendonitis flared up.

Also on the UHK v1 and have since not been able to use anything else. Especially because of fast layer switching, home row arrows and mouse layer. Although checking out the Dygma Raise now :)

Mistel is a Taiwanese company and their keyboards (at least the ones I've seen and bought) are made in Taiwan.

I have the kinesis with 20" cable. wish it were slightly longer for cases like 'one side on the couch arm', but it's a million times better than angling my hand around a laptop touchpad

layout slightly awkward. escape key is off in the wilderness, keep hitting F1 by accident. Wouldn't mind Y and B keys duplicated so I can hit them with either hand.

There are probably multiple different causes for RSI in programmers, but for me, a regular keyboard is fine. Even my slouch is fine. I type with my elbows on the table and it's fine.

It's the mouse that killed me. A handful of years after graduating from college, I thought my programming career was over because the pain in my neck and shoulders was so bad I couldn't type. I went to a bunch of doctors, neurologists, physiotherapy, etc but nothing helped, not even medication.

It turns out twisting my right hand outward in order to accommodate my mouse to the right of my keyboard was the culprit. I changed my entire set up so that my mouse is away from my keyboard when I type, and when I need to use the mouse, I push my keyboard away and have the mouse on the table in the center of my body, with my wrist slightly twisted so that it mimics writing with a pencil. That's also why Macbooks and similar laptops are fine with my because it's in the middle.

Once I switched to this technique, my carpal tunnel went away. It's been over 25 years now with no pain. Like I said, different people probably have different causes of carpal tunnel, but for me this was the precise reason.

The mouse was also the issue for me but I switched to a trackball. All the work is done by my thumb, no need to move your arm around.

I loved the kensington expert mouse for that (the old one that was exactly same as a poolball) since it had wonderful heft and could do both palm spins and precision one hand.

But, they stopped producing that particular kind (they were also hard to maintain using a special key to open the case) so I just switched to using my left hand for the mouse on half my computers and right hand on the other half. That was easier than moving equipment around from machine to machine for me and coworkers/family. No RSI since.

Congrats on finding and resolving your carpal tunnel problem. I switched to a basic wireless trackball[1] about 5 years into my career (10 years in industry) which has kept me mostly pain free since I can avoid moving my wrist.

Still might need to look for a better keyboard and a slightly better trackball, but for anyone reading this with minor pain: don't ignore it. Try new things early and try to reduce your pain, even minor twinges as much as possible early, since, well, I expect to be in this game for the long haul.

[1] Logitech M570

Been using M570 too for some time. However recently I've read that some research suggests that thumb-operated trackballs might do bad things to your thumb and that finger-operated trackballs (like Kensington Expert) are less risky. Worth keeping in mind and digging deeper. (Don't have K.E. but planning to try it out)

Thanks for the heads up on thumb-balls not being a perfect solution. Do you have any links handy?

> Thumb-operated trackballs don’t work for everyone. “Overuse of the thumb can result in de Quervain’s tenosynovitis, where extending the thumb becomes a painful movement,

https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-trackballs/a... > "Should you switch to a trackball?"

Thanks, good luck to you on finding a completely pain-free solution!

This is the late 90s, so neurologists and other doctors weren't very useful at all. One even suggested surgery to correct my problem which got me really scared I might be out of the profession and wondering what I could do.

What I found out was that there's a nerve that runs all the way down your arm into your hand/wrist, and when I twisted my right hand outward to use the mouse, it was pinching this nerve constantly. But instead of having pain in my wrist or forearms, it was causing pain in my neck and shoulders. This is a well-known phenomenon called "referred pain" where the body might not have the proper pain receptors to show pain in one area, so it sends the pain signals elsewhere.

I started to wonder why I could write notes with a pen for hours and hours throughout college and never had any issues, but a couple of years out of college, I had such debilitating pain that I almost had to quit. So I bought a mouse that had the form factor of a pen and tried to recreate my experience writing by moving my keyboard away and using the pen mouse the way I would when I write with a pen. It was a very primitive mouse with a roller ball the size of a marble at the tip, but it completely worked. After the pen mouse died in 9 months, I tried to recreate my wrist angle in a similar way as the pen mouse with a normal mouse and it worked as well. As I said, I've adopted this convention and people comment on how weirdly I hold the mouse, but I've been pain free ever since.

Is it a "vertical mouse" or something different?

examples I've heard of: https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-vertical-erg...

https://us.anker.com/products/a7852

These days you can get an optical mouse that behaves like a pen like this

https://ergonomictrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/pen-m...

I'm not endorsing the one above, just showing what it looks like. The one I had from the late 90s was wired, with a big roller at the tip instead of it being optical.

The main thing is that when you hold a pen, your hand is more up and down rather than flat to the surface of the table, like when you're holding a mouse. Having it up and down is a more natural position for the hand relative to your body and doesn't force it to be twisted away from the body so that I could hold the mouse. That twist was was pinched my nerve for me.

Trackball gang unite (?)

I got the ergo one[1] and my wrist pain went away, the key is that now I don't move my wrist anymore.

[1] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-wireles...

Nice, I can see the tilt angle is different.

I might need to try either getting the one you linked or perhaps 3D printing a stand to tilt my existing mouse out and experiment.

I've got a love hate relationship with the ergo.

I love the tilt, and the improved build quality.

But I wish it had better battery life, was a size bigger, and had Linux drivers.

I would like it to have a better scroll like the fancy mx mouse with inertial scroll. +1 to battery and usb c

Man I love it, and my battery lasts weeks! Sorry to hear yours doesn’t. And yeah, I wish it had Linux drivers. I thought I found some software somewhere that allowed this (I don’t really use Linux as a desktop, just terminals). Maybe I’ll try and find it and put a link here.

Yeah, mine lasts 4-6 weeks, but with the Logitech M570 trackball I was getting 6-12 months off of a single AA battery.

The M570 also has a red led that lights up when you need to replace the battery. The ergo doesn't have any such led, so the only sign that you need to recharge it is when it dies.

There are some "drivers" for it but I haven't had much luck with them. What I did find was someone had some scripts I was able to use to get things usable on a 4k monitor: https://gitlab.com/khaytsus/mxergo

I use the MX Ergo on Linux. Never had to install any drivers. Works perfectly.

My issue is that I use a scaled 4k monitor, and in order to get the mouse to move at a reasonable speed I had to put some xinput commands into my autostart script. It feels hacky, and just wish it had proper support.

I use two 4K monitors. Haven't really had an issue with movement speed. I can pretty easily send the pointer from one side all the way too the other with one flick of my thumb. I use sway/wayland though, so maybe it's different from X11 on that. I also mostly use the keyboard for desktop navigation, coding, etc. The mouse is almost entirely for clicking on things within a browser window and the occasional Steam game.

Same for me, hence years ago I started using two mice.

It took a few weeks to operate the mouse well with left hand, but now I'm fairly ok with left handed usage. Still using right hand mouse for high precision gestures and when I need left hand on keyboard (when using Tab). Unfortunately the choice for left handed mice is very low and they're expensive;I use a symmetrical Kensington trackball with the left hand.

Something that helped me was setting my mouse to a lower DPI and using my elbow and shoulder for movement. A very high DPI encourages tiny movements with the wrist.

This is also a general recommendation for gamers looking to improve their accuracy with FPS style games. Low DPI, larger arm movements provides higher accuracy.

I'm the same. Never had an issue with keyboard usage, but started to run into trouble with the mouse usage. I used a wacom tablet as my daily driver for a while but it was a bit too inconvenient. I've found actually that just alternating between a trackpad (left hand) and a mouse (right hand) throughout the day has solved the problem.

It was the mouse for me as well. It started to cause sharp pain on the underside of my right elbow. The problem seemed to be the numeric pad on the right side of the keyboard, which pushes the mouse slightly further away from my body, stretching my arm slightly further out.

The solution was to switch my mouse to the left side, where it could be slightly closer to my body. It took a few months of getting used to, but after 10-20 years (can't remember), I've never had pain on my left arm. I have tried going back to right side a few times, just out of curiosity, and the pain on the right arm will come back after a few months.

Yes I have had the same elbow pain. It started 5 years after switching my mouse to my left hand due to right arm pain.

A concerted programme of golfer's elbow exercises and creating a split keyboard as described have dealt with the pain.

I am now using a Slimblade trackball and not getting on with it: it causes different pain and 3 months in I am still not accurate.

While I have not used the Slimblade, I did consider it when I last shopped for trackballs and settled for the Orbit instead, which I've owned before and can use for hours at a stretch without issue. I believe the angles of the palm rest are substantially different between the two models and there have been complaints of worse ergonomic properties with the Slimblade, which was enough to dissuade me. It's something that could be adjusted with foam and cardboard(and given a nicer texture with vinyl tape) if you're willing to experiment.

I would also review desk/chair height and other major elements of the setup too. Pain in the extremities can have causation near the hips, back or shoulders so increasingly I favor looking for holistic solutions. Lately I have been doing animal crawl exercises(bear, lizard, crab) and have found that they clear up a lot of minor aches-and-pains issues, so that might be another thing to try.

> It turns out twisting my right hand outward in order to accommodate my mouse to the right of my keyboard was the culprit.

I noticed that very early on in my career. Back when keyboards you could reasonably buy always had a keypad at the right of the keyboard.

So what did I do back then? (we're talking early 2000 or so)...

I learned to use my mouse as a leftie.

And to this day I can use my mouse either with the left hand or right hand.

Also I made sure to configure everything so that mouse usage is minimized.

I do the exact same thing towards the end of the day - push the keyboard away and put the mouse center in front of me.

Voted this just because we're all different and this could really be a lightbulb moment for someone with similar issues.

I had a similar issue, wore a wrist brace for years - my solution was to switch to a laptop with a trackpad - the continual moving my hand to the right to a mouse or trackball was what was doing it - I haven't owned a desktop machine for over 20 years now

I would like a ThinkPad shaped keyboard with mousepad and trackpoint included (the mousepad below the spacebar and mouse button both above and below it)

almost every mouse/keyboard combo has the mousepad on the side which I dislike

I had the same issue and same realization. That's why I always use keyboards without the numpad; that extra 4 inches of space for the mouse relieved most of my computer posture pains.

> It turns out twisting my right hand outward in order to accommodate my mouse to the right of my keyboard was the culprit.

This has been my experience too. I used to have a TKL keyboard, thought I needed a numpad even though the only times I would've had use for it have been Blender and a GTA V plane flying mission.

Now I've gone down the rabbit hole of split keyboards and ergonomic mice when all I really need is a TKL keyboard. ZSA Moonlander is dope, but it doesn't help the mouse situation.

I find it really odd that the OP is staring down the barrel of an RSI that's going to inexorably lock them (presumably) out of their career and passion, but the learning curve for a proper ergonomic keyboard seemed to high. I was up to an acceptable 40WPM on the Ergodox a week after switching, and his complaints about "the Cherry MX" switches fall a little flat since there's about a dozen different kinds, all with different noise and tactile characteristics.

I just can't fathom all that unused space on my desk (two halves of two keyboards, going totally unused!) when the investment in some natural-feeling typing infrastructure was relatively small given how much pain I've avoided, and will continue to avoid.

Edit: clearer word order

I've got a pair of Ergodox Infinity keyboards with good mechanical keys (not clicky) and SA keycaps because I got tired of carrying one back and forth to the office. My RSI is gone and so I feel that the $800 investment is nothing when looking at the ROI of continued use of my hands.

I'm very happy with Cherry MX Brown switches - a good tactile feel with very little noise!

Switching to ortholinear can really mess you up when you have to use a laptop or colleague's keyboard.

I've been using a Moonlander exclusively on my desktop since November 2020 while having no trouble continuing to use a Macbook Air or my old Acer laptop.

The differently placed modifier keys on the laptops screw me up infinitely more than going from an ortholinear split to a laptop and back.

I can second this - my main driver is a Dactyl-Manuform (ortholinear), and I have zero problems on any of the other four non-ortho keyboards that I use.

I also use Dvorak as my main layout and have no problems when going back to a QWERTY one.

It is the modifier keys that has me using two magic keyboards like the article. When I'm away from my desk, with my mac, I can still use it.

With a programable mechanical kb you should be able to match the Mac layout. There are a few split versions that should have sufficient keys, especially if you're not using a ten-key frequently.

I've also been using a Moonlander since late 2020 and going back to a laptop has been fine. The fact that on my two Lenovo laptops, the Ctrl and Fn keys are not in the same order (whoever thought this was a good idea?) is anecdotally also a much more frequent cause of issues.

In my experience, you learn how to use a regular keyboard. Then you learn to use an ergonomic keyboard. Then you finally also need to learn how to switch back and forth.

Three separate skill sets. But all very learnable.

This resonates with me. I purchased a Moonlander around a month ago. I'm finally starting to reach the typing speed I had on a regular keyboard, but I haven't learned how to switch back to a normal keyboard yet.

That said, I don't really want to use normal keyboards anymore. This feels like how computer keyboards should've been designed from the start.

I do that. Atreus with Dvorak by day, laptop keyboard with QWERTY in the evening. It's basically not an issue.

I've used an ortholinear keyboard as my main keyboard for the last four years (Keyboardio Model 01 and occasionally Atreus as my travel/backup). Using a regular layout keyboard slows me down for a bit, but that often has more to do with the placement of modifier keys, Enter, Backspace, and so on rather than the ortholinear vs skewed layout. Still, I can readjust after an hour or so. Oddly, I find that I have almost no readjustment period when I use the keyboard on a laptop. The catch might be that I've never felt comfortable typing on a laptop keyboard, even before I started using ortholinear layouts. I see people sitting at cafes working on their laptops for hours and I just could never do that and don't really understand how other people can do it without destroying their wrists and necks.

> a dozen different kinds

This is a vast underestimation. There are now hundreds of Cherry MX compatible clones, many of which are considered better than Cherry's original designs.

For example, I'm typing on a switch called the Gazzew Boba U4T, which is much more tactile and sharper than anything Cherry has ever made.

On July 11 ThereminGoat had reviewed 1031 different switches:

https://twitter.com/GoatTheremin/status/1414247177203900418

There's absolutely zero clinical/valid evidence that Cherry MX switches do a shred of anything for RSI.

It's all hype. There's nothing medical behind any of it.

I find the extra key travel of those switches fatigues my fingers/arms far more and makes me feel far more like I'm going to have RSI.

I did have full blown RSI, and ditching mechanical keyboards was a key part of getting past it. Now that's just my anecdote, there's no evidence the mechanical switches are actually worse. But there's no evidence they're better either.

No one knows whether it's hard rebound or key travel or anything that actually causes the issues. And different RSIs are totally different. It's possible Mechanical switches could be better for carpal tunnel but worse for tendinitis or vise versa. But it doesn't seem like it has been studied.

My experience with medical treatment was doctors and PTs don't even know what the different types of keyboard switches are at all. They know about desk positioning and ergonomic shaped keyboards but switch type was not something that they had any advice on.

> I find the extra key travel of those switches fatigues my fingers/arms far more and makes me feel far more like I'm going to have RSI.

I just can't bear the thought of using mechanical keyboard where I have to lift my fingers too much to be able to move them and press another key. For me, the less I need to move my fingers up/down, and the less pressure I have to apply, the better - as in, hurts way less

My injury was multi-factor. It started with a cycling injury. Medication taken from the cycling injury was partially a cause of the RSI coming on. It was also just a really stressful time with a lot of work.

But I had been in the field for ~15 years with no significant RSI, and those injuries and RSI weren't too long after I had switched to mechanical keyboards. I struggled for a few years. There's so much momentum behind mechanical switches it was really hard for me to convince myself they could be the problem, but I never got rid of it till I stopped using them.

I do think key travel is part of it. Playing piano is/was 10x worse than computer keyboards, even though nice piano actions have a softer "bounce" than any computer keyboard. The piano keyboard has huge travel. Meanwhile playing guitar the fretboard has absolutely zero give or cushioning, but the finger travel is extremely small, and it's never given me an issue. (I gave up piano to reduce chances of having an RSI again.)

There's no real proof/study of travel vs bounce anyway with respect to fatigue and injury.

The key to Cherry and similar mech switches is that they activate well before they bottom out. With a bit of practice you can type by just lightly floating your fingertips across the keys, seldom getting the impact of hitting the bottom. There's not much travel that way.

My problem was finger joint pain, which was getting bad enough to affect my productivity. This completely fixed it for me. I just had to put up with a few weeks of inaccurate typing while I learned. Sometimes I get complacent and type too much directly on my laptop, and the pain starts coming back, but the mech fixes it every time.

I think that's the main benefit of a mechanical keyboard with hotswap sockets -- you can change out the switches for something better (for you).

There are switches with lighter springs, so you can apply less pressure. And if you forgo the MX style mechanical keys you can get a keyboard with low profile "choc" switches, which have less travel.

(for example purpz are low profile with a very light actuation force: https://boardsource.xyz/store/5fff705f03db380da20f1014 -- I have no experience with them yet, as my choc keyboard isn't hotswap)

25g is in the "moving to home row actuates key" territory, make sure you know what you're getting yourself into.

you mean as in: just touching the key activates it?

I second (or third now) that travel on typical mechanical switches is anecdotally sub-optimal for my RSI. Membrane dome switches with a lot of travel are worse, but membrane dome switches with almost no travel seem to be better.

Ironically the worse keyboard I've used for it also happened to be an "ergonomic" keyboard (from the 90s, or maybe early 2000s) with keys tilted outwards. I think partially because of the positioning, and partially because it had membrane switches with a lot of travel.

Try a short-travel or low profile mech switch. I believe both Cherry and Kailh have a Speed series with a short activation distance. The Kailh Choc line of low-profile switches has something like a 1-2mm travel which might work too.

I tried that once before, unfortunately the switches were crap and some of them quickly died/stopped registering keypresses at all within days.

Just ordered a split keyboard (kinesis freestyle edge) with MX speed silver (1.2mm travel) switches. Will see how it goes this time.

Who are you responding to? Above comment said nothing about Cherry MX for RSI. Neither did the article's author.

This subthread highlights one of the things that seems true about RSI: what works for you may not work for me. I find that having longer key travel works better for me - typing on laptop boards or those shallow Mac keyboards tears up my forearms. I use Cherry switches without the tactile bump and they work great for me.

One benefit with mechanical keys though is that there's a massive variety of types, so you can easily find something that works for you. You can get short-travel (i.e. Kailh speed series), soft bottom-outs via something like the Boba series or by using o-rings, high resistance or low resistance with varying spring weights, tactile vs clicky vs linear for feedback.

With a membrane keyboard you have zero choice beyond moving from one brand/model of keyboard to another, but with a hot-swappable keyboard you can try multiple switches until you find one that suits you and doesn't aggravate any existing RSI or trigger new forms of RSI.

I'm not sure if I'd consider it all hype, at least not when talking about the force required to press down a key. When using regular 55g switches (brown, red, or something else), my fingers get tired rather quickly. But when using 35g red switches, I can go all day without any problems (finger wise at least). I've tried lighter (20g), but I ended up accidentally pressing keys too often.

I will say this: clicky switches serve no practical purpose. The same goes for tactile switches, _especially_ when using light springs as you'll bottom out most of the time. Whether you buy Cherry switches, Kailh or something else doesn't really matter either ergonomics wise.

I had the same experience with ultra-light switches, I couldn't use anything heavier than reds. Then I tried very smooth lubed linears (Alpaca v2, which are 62g), and they were totally fine.

I am not sure if they helped ergonomically but I found I was accidentally pressing keys far less.

It took me 16 hours of targeted practice on monkeytype and keybr.io to reach ~50 wpm on my first split keyboard, including a new keyboard layout. The second time I changed layout it was even faster.

There is some effort here, but in the context of an entire programming career it barely even registers.

I created a filter able gallery of split, mechanical keyboards to help people browse through the kind of things that are available.

https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/

Xah Lee has a page with some non-mechanical options listed.

http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html

These are fantastic. Thank you!

If you're interested in split keyboards, check out the Keyboard.io Model 100[1], which will be shipping in January. They're a reputable company, having already successfully sold the Model 01 and Atreus with great success. Jesse and Kaia are great folk and send regular updates on the production.

Why Model 100 over other split boards like the Moonlander or Ergodox? 1. Sculpted keycaps take the ortholinear split board to another level of comfort (and help recognize which keys your fingers are on). 2. It's $55 cheaper than Moonlander. 3. The palm key allows you to layers without having to move your hand. 4. Aesthetics?

I've been using a Model 01 for the past few years and other typing experiences can't compare. I'm waiting for a Model 100 now so I can switch to its better (MX-style) switches.

[1]: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-keyboardio-model-100-...

In regards to point 1, ortholinear sculpted keys are available for the Ergodox. I use one due to a wrist injury.

TIL. ThatIf you're referring to the DCS sculpted keycaps which come with the EZ[2], they're still not quite the same. Keyboard.io Models 01 and 100 use different shapes for (nearly?) every key. At the edges of the keyboard, it's particularly noticeable: the outer edges are ramped inwards.

The downside of individually sculpted caps is, of course, compatibility with other keycap sets.

Why such keyboards lack F keys?

Having to press another key to allow F keys doesn't sound like ergonomic at all, less combos -> less strain for hands.

Well, it's all remappable. In the default layout, Fun+number maps to F keys. Fun is the palm key by default, so it's very easy to press.

I'd like to make an accessory recommendation: get one of those grip-strength things and use it all the time.

This did two things for me:

1. Extra strength in hands and forearms makes you more resistant to injury of all kinds there

2. More importantly I think, having extra muscles in your hands and forearms gives you more proprioception feedback to help know when you're putting your hands and wrists in an uncomfortable position.

I've read a lot of accounts over time of people who get to full RSI injury stage without realizing their hands were in an awkward position at their desk, but I've never had that problem because my forearms are meaty enough that any odd position pulls a bit on the muscles. I can literally feel when my hands are out of position, so every time I sit at a different desk setup, or change my chair position, I push my keyboard and mouse around until they're all kinds of angled and spaced away from each other and I feel no strain. I also regularly mix up hand/elbow position throughout the day because I can feel strain happening earlier in the muscles before it becomes a problem for my tendons.

IANAD, YMMV, etc - but I've been typing/gaming many hours most days for almost two decades and I've yet to experience RSI (knock on wood).

How did you increase strength in your hands and forearms?

> get one of those grip-strength things and use it all the time

What additional details are you looking for?

Oh, I see. Thanks.

Be careful with these grip strength thingies. If your finger tendons are overworked, using those will exacerbate the problem. I tell from experience. It’s brutal. Tendons aren’t muscles, they don’t fatigue and recover in the same way as muscles, like from doing forearm curls.

I had a lot of pain, started stretching my fingers and it was gone in a week. Can recommend.

There is a lot of hype on this thread about the Moonlander keyboard.

The hype is real.

The author has a neat hack, but seriously, just get yourself a split keyboard that supports the QMK firmware, customize the crap out of it, and your hands will thank you forever.

I wish I could buy the Moonlander without switches and keycaps. I already have both.

That would be nice. They explain why they don’t do that here: https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/faq

That being said, their support and product are absolutely excellent—might be worth it anyway

That is somewhat of a good point about testing, but I’m not 100% convinced. The PCB itself should have already been tested at the factory, which should be sufficient for someone like me who’s ordering it without switches.

The purpose of testing the switches how they’re doing it is to ensure that the pins weren’t bent upon insertion and the switches themselves. Neither of those things apply in my case. Other companies sell plenty of DIY hot swap board kits without switches pre installed, so they must have a reliable and cheap way of testing the hot swap sockets themselves (something the PCB factory may or may not do, not sure).

I wish someone would make a wireless split keyboard. I have the ergodox but I ended up replacing it with the logitech mx keys because I was sick of having cables all over my desk and having to unplug the thing every time I switch between my desktop and laptop.

You can definitely build your own. I think one hurdle is that the ZMK firmware (like QMK, but supports Bluetooth) is a little immature. (I could be very wrong.)

I’ve seen plenty in r/ergomechkeyboards. If someone made a wireless Moonlander, insta-buy from me!

> I wish someone would make a wireless split keyboard.

You mean like the Freestyle Blue?

https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-blue-pc/

You can also get USB switch. They won't solve the cable issue, but you won't have to keep plugging/unplugging stuff.

Interesting product. Little bit ugly but it does seem to be what I wanted. I actually had a usb switch setup going on but the problem was I had cables everywhere and still had to plug everything in to the laptop. Now I just plug in power and video and the rest is just wireless.

I have been using Kinesis Advantage keyboards for close to two decades now. The keyboard wells and the placement of the space, enter, delete, backspace, and modifier keys I find amazing. I haven't been able to find anything else nearly as good. So I keep using them even though they only have USB interfaces.

I've been using them so long I have a few lying around. I've gotten two set up as described by ruffrey. Oh. My. God. I've been typing for less than an hour on this new setup and already my shoulders feel way better.

When I broke my clavicle, I rigged up a second keyboard that I could use with my arm in a sling: https://live-fts.flickr.com/photos/lancefisher/4293591069/in...

It worked really well! The biggest downside was that I had to use modifier keys on the same keyboard as the key I was modifying. e.g. right shift and l to get a capital L.

That keyboard you have in your left hand is one of my favorite keyboards ever, as far as non-standard layouts go, anyway. I just love how it fits over any laptop keyboard for ergonomics on the go.

Split keyboards can also do this :]

If you've always wanted to get one of those fancy custom split keyboards (corne, iris, etc), I highly recommend https://keebmaker.com/. For a small price premium, you basically pick out the keyboard you want, and they'll build it for you (so you don't have to mess with soldering, etc).

Thanks for sharing. Super cool and way cheaper than I expected.

I had keebmaker build me an iris some time ago, I second this recommendation, excellent service.

(I regret not picking a keyboard with hotswap sockets, I'd like to experiment with different switches but this iris will have brown chocs soldered onto it forever :)

I bought an Ultimate Hacking Keyboard and I absolutely love it. It has solved my primary complaint of feeling tired at the end of the day, and have been loving the custom key commands that can be sent depending on the layer of the keyboard.

Certain shortcuts for things like managing windows are now behind Fn + a key vs Ctrl + Option + Cmd + key.

While traveling I miss my keyboard, but because its not ortholinear at least it retains similar key position so switching to a different keyboard hasn't caused too many issues.

If you can afford it, a split like the ergodox or moonlander (my personal choice) is the correct answer here. I type 8+ hours a day and have zero pain. I also switched to dvorak a few years back, and consider that to help as well.

>To be able to find Home Row, I added a couple large rubber dot things.

Have you considered this keyboard is just bad for you? Old keyboards were a lot more ergonomic, clickly, and keys had indicators to let your fingers scan for keys. Spacebar wasn't completely flat, was either rounded upwards (not dipped like all other keys). F and J have these indicators to let you find your way on keyboard: https://cdn.mwave.com.au/images/400/AB55032_4.jpg

>The CherryMX Kinesis split keyboard was is too clickey

Was it the one with red switches? I've never heard complaints, but again... are you using that crappy laptop microphone all the time? No one ever complained on my keyboard and I don't mute myself during meetings.

Are you reinventing '90s keyboard?

Everyone here is talking about RSI but the author is probably talking about a shoulder impingement due to rounded shoulders. To fix this issue you need to strengthen the back, especially the infraspinatus. There's a bunch of youtube videos that can teach you how to do this. I recommend AthleanX.

I had this issue for years and studied the issue. Did a bunch of band exercises, worked out at the gym, and suddenly it disappeared.

Any one of the keyboards listed on https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards would be better than that.

Why?

Because they've all actually been designed to be used in split layout, unlike the Apple magic keyboard.

They're also all (?) mechanical keyboards, which provide a much better typing experience than any Apple keyboard.

A well built ergonomic split keyboard with high quality switches will certainly provide a better experience than two cheap chiclet keyboards placed side by side.

And that's without the auxiliary benefits like freeing up additional desk space, a longer lifespan, and ease of repair.

Layerkeys that avoid long stretches. It is just so comfortable. You might have heard how nice hjkl is compared to using arrow-keys, imagine ~that for the entire keyboard.

Straight columns are superior. Think about it, look at your right hand and how the columns aligns with the keys underneath it. Pretty good huh? Now look at your left and you will probably struggle to explain how anyone could ever justify it, it is absolutely horrendous.

I would recommend the corne. It's cheap to build and once you get used to 40% split ortho you won't look back. As a software engineer it has been my daily driver for years.

Great list! I have the Koolertron (aka SmartYao) and love it. (Though I don't recommend the version with backlit keys) Before that I had one called the Comfort Keyboard. I wore a groove into the spacebar over a decade of use. My favorite feature of split keyboards is programming the left spacebar to backspace.

Either this person has incredibly broad shoulders or they have their arms splayed out or something. I can't imagine the 20 inches of separation available on the Kinesis Freestyle is "Not far enough apart" to "keep the shoulders in a natural, pulled-back position" for all but the most extreme outliers. I have a Kinesis keyboard and the only possible complaint I have is no numpad.

If you were working with a PT they want you sitting so far upright with your shoulders pulled so far back you might not be able to even reach the keyboard.

We're all so used to the slouch it's hard to grasp.

I can't sit back in my chair at all and both keep my shoulders back AND reach the keyboard.

That is an issue of depth. I was questioning the author's problem with width. The results on Google say the average shoulder with on a man is 16 inches. The Kinesis Freestyle maxes out at 20 inches of separation. That should be plenty for most people.

The absolute best keyboard that I've ever used was the Matias Ergo Pro, a true split keyboard with an audio jack plug connecting the two halfs, so they can be very far apart. A true mechanical (Alps) keyboard, true split, with tenting and tilting and integrated palm rests. And a real Function key row! I had two of them.

Why two? Because the first one didn't last a year, so they sent a replacement. That one didn't last long either. For $250 I was expecting a durable keyboard, but this isn't. Many people on Geekhack and other keyboard forums also report build quality issues with them.

That said, I still highly recommend this keyboard. It is comfortable enough to spend $250 every year or two on. I see it as less than half a dollar a day for a professional tool. How much do people spend on Windows and Office licenses? Not only is the layout phenomenal, with the arrow keys and Home/End/PgU/PgDown perfectly placed, but it also had very good mechanical switches.

I love mine too, got it with the quiet click switches and they feel really good. Mine occasionally gets stuck and repeats certain keys so I'm going to need to order a bag of replacement switches and replace them. I've heard that there was a bad batch of switches or something so I've been unsure if I should recommend it to others.

Hearing that you got a whole replacement keyboard I guess I should reach out to Matias and see if they'll send me some free switches so I can fix it myself.

If replacing switches doesn't fix it, I would love an excuse to tear it down and replace the firmware something custom.

I'd love to hear your experience with that. I'm about to order a third keyboard from them, price be damned.

I had the repeating key issue with both my low-force keyboard (the first one) and the regular keyboard.

Coincidentally, I just started using two keyboards for related but different reasons - left-hand mousing. I started developing tendonitis in my right thumb from mousing. Didn't matter whether mouse, pad, or ball - everything wore on it. So, I learned to mouse with my left hand, but this presented another problem - keyboard shortcuts. I found it was difficult to keep reaching over to my left side with my right hand, where most of the common keyboard shortcuts reside. I used to use my left hand for those, but moving between mouse and keyboard is also difficult. My solution was to set up a half-keyboard (aka gaming keyboard) to the right to my main keyboard. Now all my common shortcuts are easily accessible to my right hand, and it only took a few days to get used to (much less time than left hand mousing). It's working well so far.

Similar story. I had a year where I was so productive that I typed my way into cubital tunnel syndrome. Felt like getting stabbed by needles at random points in the day. Doc said I needed surgery. Instead I changed my routine dramatically for a few months.

1. "Essential Hand Stretches For Guitarists or Any Instrumentalist" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSrfB7JIzxY before, during and after typing.

2. When typing, hold my hands out limp like a zombie and move my whole arms and torso to hit the keys with limp middle fingers.

3. 2 keyboards. 2 mice. One set in the normal placement. Another keyboard in my lap. Another mouse on a pedestal to the left of my chair. Switch which device I'm using every few minutes.

In a few months the pain was gone and hasn't come back. I still get a bit tingly a decade later if I type a lot. But, besides that one year, I've always spent way more time reading code and thinking about code than actually typing code.

Thanks for the exercises - I'll give them a shot.

I'm also now doing the zombie typing thing, but not quite used to it yet. I wish I would have learned my lesson from my high school typing teacher, who would whack our arms with a ruler if we were resting our wrists on anything.

And, yeah, switching between multiple devices too: regular mouse, vertical mouse, track pad and trackball. That started with something I read along the lines of "the best ergonomic position is the next position".

Once you try the 21" separation Kinesis freestyle you won't go back (assuming you know how to touch-type). Being able to keep your arms at shoulder length apart releases a lot of tension you'd otherwise have by brining your arms literally together to type.

That being said, the keyboard is hardly perfect.

For me, the problem with the Kinesis, is that the modifier keys are all in different locations than the laptop keyboard. I still need to use that when I'm away from my desk. So now I have to Apple Magic keyboards.

I also use two Apple Magic Keyboards, though angled in rather than out. I have tried various keyboards, including ones with cherry, and I own a split Kinesis for Mac. They all have the same problem: when I am away from my desk (or country) I need to use the laptop keyboard. So I have two magic keyboards, or I have one. Has to be the magic keyboard, not the big one with the numpad, because that one has the modifiers and cursor keys in different locations (no Fn for example).

It's not for everyone, but I wish everyone else would leave off the "Oh thats so bad for you", "Oh your life will be changed by a Cherry whatever". It's not and it wasn't. Feel free to share positive outcomes, but don't insist your solution will work for everyone.

Op here, thanks for that! I sometimes type on the MacBook keyboard and it helps to have an identical layout and feel. Just seeing all the stories here about ergonomic hacks is awesome!

I got severe wrist pain in my right wrist after a year of using a regular keyboard and mouse.

After several changes, I got a microsoft ergonomic keyboard [1] and a logitech mx ergo advanced trackball, and I've been pain free since then.

The trackball helped a lot since I don't need to move my wrist, just my thumb.

[1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/microsoft-ergonomic-keyboa...

[2] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-wireles...

Honestly, switching to a more natural layout like Dvorak is probably one of the best things you can do for wrist pain. I don't think there have been any studies on it yet, but anecdotally it's great. Many people report likewise.

It's not easy to switch but imo it's well worth the time to optimize one of the primary interfaces with which you will interact with the world for decades to come.

It's so bizarre to me that we are all stuck on a horribly unoptimized interface and we continue to teach our children how to use it, when much-better performing alternatives are easily available.

Dvorak didn't change anything for me and I went back. The problem for me is angle of wrists, not key travel. (The other problem is one-handed chording and stretching. Ctrl-X,V for example.)

...just get a split keyboard (the Kinesis isn't a true split - still one body). It's cheaper. You don't have extraneous keys. You don't have to worry about using software to get your computer to play nice with two keyboards. I like the offerings from https://gboards.ca, personally (bonus, they're ortholinear if you believe that is good for reducing pain).

I got the Gergoplex from that site, and over the course of a week of typing I got used to it and was able to be productive with it.

Just get a split.

As people mentioned elsewhere in this thread, kinesis does have split keyboards (the freestyle / edge line). And you can choose your switch type in case you want a quiet keyboard.

I've thinking about trying this for a very long time, but never did so. My keyboard "mechanical switch" of choice is Trope. To me there isn't a single other switch that comes even close (and I've got lots of keyboards). And among the Topre keyboards, my favorite is the HHKB Pro JP (japanese layout)... But it's not split (I don't care if it's two parts or one part: to me "split" means both halves are at an angle).

So I've been thinking about using not one but two HHKB Pro JP, as in TFA. I should really just try it.

These split and ortholinear keyboards all seem to be compensating for the fact that we are taught to type keys on the left hand bottom row with the wrong finger.

The "Q-A-Z" slope goes completely against the natural angle of your left finger curl. Same for every finger on your left hand.

The right hand gets things right with "U-J-M" etc. Nice finger curl with your hand in a natural position.

On normal keyboards we should be teaching and typing the "W-S-Z" (or even "E-S-Z") column with your left ring finger, not the completely perpendicular "W-S-X".

Op here, I totally agree we need to re-think keyboard ergonomics! Millions of people have pain from the design of these things. I am so happy the article sparked a little conversation.

My biggest problem is to find keyboards that would have all 3 modifiers on BOTH sides.

I use a Mac for work which means in most (split/ergo/tenkeyless) keyboards (depending on the settings applicable) either Ctrl or Alt/Opt is missing from the right side, because e.g. an Fn key or a squeezed-in left arrow is taking their place. I need all 3 modifiers constantly (Ctrl+C in Terminal, enter special characters, use app shortcuts, jump between windows/tabs...)

Any mechanical keyboard supporting QMK is fully reprogrammable, so you can either choose one with sufficient keys, or enable one of various options to double-up particular keys.

I have an ErgoDash, which has several thumb keys on each side — the size of your hands would determine how many are practical for frequent use.

My squeezed-in left arrow key serves as Alt when I hold it down, and Enter is Ctrl if I hold that down.

Among the QMK keyboards, it's still very tricky to find a tenkeyless/ergo keyboard with mostly a normal layout (with enough keys between the spacebar and the arrow keys to host all 3 Mac modifier keys).

More importantly, I also really haven't yet found a "mechanical" keyswitch (== with a Cherry MX mount) that wouldn't be worse for my RSI than traditional rubber domes (lately I've especially liked the low travel ones, currently Logitech Ergo K860). Sure, it may also be more about the design (or lack of design) in many of these "mechanical" keyboards I've tried that is bad for my specific kind of RSI – it's hard to pin down.

Unfortunately, if you want rubber domes, the options are really scarse. I wish the religious fandom around Cherry MX style switches would decrease in the upcoming years, to give more room for new kinds of keyboard innovations.

Ah, sorry, I was thinking far too much of the mechanical keyboard nerds when you wrote "ergo". My ErgoDash is a few steps weirder than the Logitech Ergo K860. I find those low-travel keyboards extremely uncomfortable for typing; being unable to replace a much older full-travel ergonomic Logitech keyboard is what drove me to a mechanical alternative. I did find it uncomfortable at first, until I realized I did not need to press the keys anywhere near as hard as I was used to.

There are some low-profile MX mount mechanical switches [1], but I have no experience. I did make the gallery [2], but it only has mechanical keyboards – I think other sites cover rubber-dome keyboards adequately.

[1] https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Low_Profile

[2] https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/

I did exactly this - even down to using Apple Magic keyboards, because I happened to have two of them.

The only difference was that I had the keyboards angled ‘out’ rather than in, propped up at their front and middles, so that my wrists were higher than my fingers and thumbs higher than my other fingers, if that makes sense.

Eventually I moved on from this to a single keyboard specifically designed to support this sort of setup, but two small keyboards was a great start!

I have been doing exactly this for a year now. It allows my shoulders to be open, stopping me from slouching over the keyboard. It has solved my back pain.

> If you’re adult-sized, it’s nearly impossible the keep the shoulders in a natural, pulled-back position while typing on a keyboard.

I have to disagree with this.. I'm 6'1 and had bad posture for most of my life. I had the same issues with pain that you describe. But recently I've put a lot of work into it having better posture and I don't have any problems anymore. You just need the right desk/chair height and sit up straight without resting your back on the backrest.

Something like this is really helpful: https://www.amazon.com/Posture-Corrector-Men-Women-Truweo/dp...

If you've never put effort into having good posture then you probably don't have the muscles that you need. Doing yoga, or any kind of core exercise, is also really helpful. I can't tell you enough how much better I feel having built up some real core strength. I used to hurt my back all the time but that never happens anymore!

Just my $.02 :)

I don’t know, there really is something to it - i bought a Zsa Moonlander keyboard last year which is two split halves. I instantly felt a comfort i’ve never had before or since around my shoulder blades. It was really satisfying.

That said, i sold the keyboard after only a few months and i’m back to a normal style keyboard so it wasn’t that big a deal clearly.

Oh I'm not trying to say which keyboard setup is better than the other.. just that I think a normal keyboard works fine if you've got some core strength and good posture. But you know, that's totally just like, my opinion man.

Apologies if that came off wrongly - wasn't intended that way

I was a bit surprised by the solution in the article and then again when I saw a load of supporting comments. I have really debilitating pain in my hands and wrists and as far as I can tell, it started with the first MBP I had using chiclet keys. To this day, I can't type on a modern Apple keyboard without my pain flaring up (although the later 2019 model was a big improvement for me).

Add on the sharp edge of the laptop right where a wrist might sit and the thing was an ergonomic nightmare for me. For quite some time, I typed by using two pens to peck at the keys. I then spent years on a dictation-based solution to writing code (https://github.com/dictation-toolbox). I really thought I was going to have to pursue a new career. Fortunately, I tried a friend's Kinesis Advantage and found that helped alleviate the symptoms. It's hard to convey how much relief I felt. I was skeptical of the Kinesis since it seemed gimmicky and because I had no success with other ergonomic keyboards, but it works for me. It's not pain-free, but it's livable. As a secondary benefit, it can flip to sending Dvorak keypresses. I used to do that at the OS level, but it wouldn't work in some programs and it was really annoying for anyone I might pair program with.

The low key travel distance on modern laptops is a killer for me. I don't think I type particularly aggressively, but I did originally learn to type on an Apple IIs. I've found with most chiclet keys that pressing the key bottoms out before my fingers expect and I end up jamming them. I have a work-issued MBP now and it's mostly workable because I can type on an external keyboard at home, but I dread having to travel with this thing. For my personal laptop, I ended up with Lenovo just because it had the best travel distance I could find. It's still a chiclet keyboard though and not nearly as comfortable as older laptops.

I really miss the old AlBook MBP keyboard. That was the last laptop I could comfortably use. Apple's equipment is still incredibly popular, so I appreciate that their ergonomics are not problematic for many people. I just never would have thought that an Apple keyboard would have improved RSI symptoms. I'm happy the author found a solution and shared it. Typing in pain is not a pleasant experience and being able to address it for the cost of two keyboards is much cheaper than heading down the medical path.

I had rsi as well, so bad I couldn't shake anyone's hand. I thought my wrist was broken. What fixed it for me was to drop the keyboard down onto my lap using a laptop desk, or "lapdesk." I believe my pain was from resting my wrists or forearms on the desk or chair armrests...So I also removed the chair armrests. Also, removing the distance from keyboard to mouse by utilizing a tablet keyboard w/o a numeric keypad. Using the i3 window manager in Linux was great, and I need to do better at using vimium in the browser to reduce mouse usage. It took me forever to find the lapdesk thing out, and there is research behind the ergonomics: http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ergoguide.html

http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/AHTutorials/typingposture.html

In my opionion, it's worth a good read-through.

I will second this and say split keyboard has largely solved the neck and shoulder pain I’ve had for years. I still get it sometimes but it’s very rare, whereas it was very frequent before I converted to split keyboard.

For ease of adjustment I found the Matías Ergo Pro keyboard to be very good.

Before that I tried the Kinesis Freestyle and didn’t like it as much.

Recently I’ve been using a Dygma Raise with Cherry MX Brown switches, and I’m enjoying it as it’s nearly as familiar as the Matías but smaller. I greatly miss the arrow keys though.

I have to say this two keyboard hack is pretty clever. What I wish I could buy is almost exactly this: a Mac laptop keyboard split in half. I wouldn’t argue that it has better typing feel etc compared to mechanicals, but I do still work on my laptop some and while I’ve gotten to where I can switch back and forth without being too badly impacted, I still make a lot more mistakes compared to when I exclusively typed on my laptop or other Apple keyboard.

I do this with two mice (well, one mouse and a trackpad).

I had pretty bad repetitive strain in my right wrist. I realized it kicks in after using the mouse for too long. So now when I feel my right wrist start to complain (every few minutes) I just switch to the trackpad with my left hand.

It also helps a ton to just learn keyboard shortcuts for everything.

It's not about the keyboard. It's about the lack of a strength building regime. Humans are not built to sit behind a desk. A strength training regime like Starting Strength or Stronglifts 5x5 is what the average office worker needs to survive their career RSI free into old age

I love both Starting Strength and Stronglifts and I think exercise is absolutely critical for everyone, especially knowledge workers. I lift daily, but I still get RSI. Maybe I'm an anomaly, but I think you might be painting too broad a brush with this prescription.

A muscle imbalance in the shoulders from years of mouse use will almost certainly cause some form of neck pain, as will anterior pelvic tilt from an undeveloped posterior from years of sitting in a chair. Typing related injuries in the elbow occur because the tendons - and the muscles surrounding the tendons - are too weak to support something as simple as typing. So long as you're smart and your hands aren't stretching across the keyboard you're not going to develop something sinister-to-treat like the emacs pinky.

Take care of yourself. There's certainly more of us on here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17132938

If you’ve done those programs then you know how important form is to doing physical activities safely. The way I see it, the standard keyboard is akin to encouraging lifting with bad form, 30-80 hours a week.

Heavy barbell movements demand proper nutrition, form checks, and a spotter in some circumstances. It's a low risk activity with a bit of careful planning in terms of linear progression and diet. Film yourself in the gym if you need to

The split wireless keyboard from FalbaTech dramatically decreased back pain, headaches, and migraines. My keyboards are kept at a minimum 50cm apart, and I can move them freely depending on comfort (because they are split AND wireless!). Highly recommend them!

Trying this out right now with a keyboard and laptop and I'm immediately a fan! I'm pleasantly surprised that Shift works across keyboards.

I really dislike keyboard key layouts, that is the physical staggered location of the keys always feels cramped and inconvenient when our fingers naturally want to splay out. I also am pretty comfortable reaching across the keyboard, or typing one handed, even though I like to stick to the home row. Using two keyboards I notice how much more natural it is to reach across and use the 'wrong' hand for certain keys. But mostly my experience is just what the author said: The relief was almost instant. This feels like the way I'm supposed to have been typing all along.

I'm typing this now with my left hand on my main keyboard and my right hand on my laptop keyboard, which is about two feet away and at an angle. It's surprising how natural it feels to type this way.

I don't have any particular RSI issues, so I probably won't make a habit of it, but it's interesting how my brain doesn't seem to care how far apart my hands are. I'm not even consciously aware of which hand I'm using at any moment.

This is really similar to the Kinesis freestyle keyboard. https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ I really like it.

I don't game but I've found Kinesis split keyboard (https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/) + vertical mouse cured my wrist/forearm pain. That plus a desk at 27" instead of a "normal" 32" are one time ergonomic expenses that are absolute no-brainers for programmers.

It took a lot of trial and error to find the setup that worked for me. I think the above is the right 80/20 solution. Worth a shot and hope it ends up helping someone. FWIW, the Kinesis keyboard has a nice tilt that corresponds with the vertical mouse tilt.

Using a vertical mouse completely cured my wrist pain. They are clunky and an eyesore, but if you feel the slightes pain in your wrist, I urge you to get a vertical mouse and at least use it part of the time. I got a cheap rechargeable one for 30 euros and it feels very natural. Swtiching between regular mouse and vertical ones is no problem at all.

The author dismisses clicky keyboards as "too loud for screen shares", but I'm not sure that's a problem with a good mic. You get truly impressive noise reduction. https://www.benkuhn.net/vc/. My own experience is that with even a decent mic, I never used mute, and could do things like calls while my son watched TV in the next room (not separated by a door, but by a wide open entryway). My coworkers testimony made me clear that while it was distracting for me, they weren't hearing the noise.

The Advantage 2 can be modified to be a split keyboard. Take a look inside, it's pretty simple. [0] Just need some longer cables and add extra supports to the case right? It appears at least one person has accomplished this. [1]

[0]: http://www.abarry.org/likelytobeforgotten/wp-content/uploads...

[1]: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=16112.0

Kinesis has also been teasing a new board that looks to be a split Advantage style board.

https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1397335511694381058

I made the jump from dual keyboards to a Kinesis Freestyle (2) almost a decade ago. Honestly sometimes I think about going back.

I had dual MS Sculpt keyboards for a while, & loved the curve. It's easier to spread the keyboards out far wider than with the pretty short cable Kinesis keyboards usually come with (some keyboards have an XL option). Also Kinesis seems allergic to build a regular-plain-old function-key row, and it seriously hampers usability, even after years of use on this keyboard.

The best part is definitely being in an office, and people thinking I was working on multiple things at once.

With two Logitech multi-bluetooth keyboards (1-2-3 selector) talking to two or three computers, multiple use-cases would be covered.

Do people really sit there all day with their fingers on the home rows?

I find most of my workday I am thinking, reading, using the mouse etc. Actually typing comes in relatively short bursts.

Maybe you're all much harder workers than me :)

Since going to a sculpt, regular keyboards are just upsetting. I love almost everything about it, especially how I can position my shoulders. It feels familiar for a mac user, ironically, because of the chicklet keys, and only took a day to get used to. I'd love to try others that are identical in shape, but maybe different in tact or texture. The Surface Keyboard is too big and too expensive for my taste. $170 vs $80.

I like this person's idea, though of course it's very demanding in terms of space and $$. Whatever gets rid of the pain and helps your posture.

Don't forget about exercise and/or physical therapy.

My tendons have been trashed by a medication(cipro) and I had some awful lows when my body was hurting, including my fingers.

The only thing I have found helpful was exercise and physical therapy. I have been doing PT for over a year now with a professional. I also won't code 8-10 hours a day. I want to program for a long time, so I prefer jobs with a room to think instead of cranking out code non-stop.

I did also use some supplements that were found to help with the damage in studies, but not sure if any were helpful.

If you're not exercising regularly and you have pain triggered by programming you should give exercise a chance. It has worked wonderfully for me. In my case just running 5k every week has done the trick. Pain went away magically and never came back. I have no idea how running can prevent what seems to be unrelated pain but I swear it worked for me. I now use the most basic keyboard and mouse and I'm fine. I don't know if it will work for you but it's worth trying.

I think having various stabilizer muscles be stronger induces you to hold your body in a healthier way. (I think this both because I've heard people say this, and I've felt it myself, although from rock climbing rather than running). It seems like the various basic work of holding your body up and out of tension is essentially free for those muscles if they are strengthened and flexible _at all_, but a sedentary lifestyle can atrophy them to beyond that.

I guess you do kinda shake and move around the muscle of your hands when you're running.

I started doing animal crawls every day recently after being tipped off by some YT videos to their benefits, and they seem to work even better than running for the goal of full-body maintenance. Every time I finish I feel like my spine has been gently massaged.

Hey. I do this! I should have done this years ago instead of trying to deal with English language keyboards or those few ergo boards that do support Nordic/Swedish/Finnish layout.

It is not about learning the different layouts. There’s just not enough keys here, unless I start switching layouts based on writing language. So much money gone, especially to get the more esoteric pieces shipped here.

I am contemplating adding shortcuts to unused halfs of the keyboards.

Wasn't on HN, not so long time ago, maybe couple of months, how to create a mechanical keyboard from a Raspberry Pi? I think the author of this article could've benefit from that one. Could've created his custom keyboard, without any additional software to link two separate keyboards in one, could've made it as wide or as split he wanted and with as many programmable keys (if he'd want) as needed.

I quite like the split style, so I made a split keyboard for me:

https://imgz.org/i6HG7FUf/

I love it, it works extremely well and is exactly suited to my hands. I should finish writing up the process one of these days.

I certainly recommend getting a split keyboard (maybe BT?) if you want to try this approach, though two cheap keyboards might be cheaper than one good split one.

They're out of style, but keyboard trays that extend out from the desk let you get the keyboard lower and closer to you for better shoulder and arm positioning. You don't need a split unless you're zombie-arm reaching for a keyboard far away on top of your desk.

Personally, my arms are very long so I actually type with my keyboards directly on my lap. My upper arms hang straight down, my shoulders completely neutral.

Has pain from using keyboard. Uses apple non-mechanical keyboard...

Try a mechanical keyboard. Gateron or Cherry brown is my choice, silent and very comfortable.

The author does mention having tried and disliked a Cherry MX.

I used to do this before with two wireless Logitech K400rs, to ease my wrist pain.

I really like their compactness, built in touchpad and volume controls etc), but was not happy with the fact that i could not keep them too close to each other, and that fn-key combinations would not work across the two keyboards (on k400 the fn keys are key (pun intended) to getting to the function keys)

If you're on mac, Karabiner will link the function and hot key combos http://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org to

The only time I have any beginnings of repetitive stress type issues is if I have to use laptop keyboards or somebody else's mouse.

I have full-sized or oversized IBM-style mechanical keyboards and the largest mouse that I could find on the market. It's not like I have the most enormous hands, but I can't deal with being cramped up on a little 14 inch laptop keyboard.

I think this is actually going to be a game changer for me. I got a keychron k6 and it's almost perfect (I only don't like having to press a function key to type a backtick).

Plus it was CHEAP for a mechanical keyboard. I can easily purchase a second one. And it's clear from just spreading my shoulders that this will have a big impact on my shoulder pain.

Thanks for sharing!

I've switched to vim for pain relief. I use vim or vim mode in the IDE (almost any IDE supports it now, I usually use IdeaVIM).

Also replaced mouse with a trackball.

Using vim means I almost never required to press two keys at once (Alt-something, Ctrl-something). Trackball doesn't cause the same amount of strain as trying to grab a tiny mouse.

I use this setup for about 11 years - no more pain.

An extra benefit of doing this is that both hands still have access to the full key set. It would be useful to re-assign the extra keys to other functions, but this seems non-trivial to do cross platform in software. Would be a nice project to make a little hardware box to combine two keyboards into one, with a little OLED screen for setting shortcuts.

Odd, I guess this might only work if you have the proper typing form? I never learned to type "properly". I think over-time by brain memorized the key layout. I can type around 70-80WPM, but my typing my mostly index finger based.

I tried moving my laptop the side, and using one-hand, but my fingers wanted to reach across the entire keyboard.

I do this already with ThinkPad keyboards which have a red knob for a mouse and love it. Shoulder pain, RSI all gone.

> The CherryMX Kinesis split keyboard was is too clickey for calls and screenshares.

I use Cherry Blues on all my kb's at home, and at least Google Meet does a stellar job at filtering out that noise; I've even asked people while I'm typing if they can hear me typing; none have answered in the positive so far.

After 18 months of remote work, the noise from someones keyboard would not even register. Click away I say.

split boards like an ergodox are really quite good, especially in this regard for us broad-shouldered folks.

An alternative to the rubber nubs is a drop of clear nail polish. I started using it on dvorak rearranged keyboards. Not sure what is best, but I got some UV curing type. A bit of alcohol removes the residue after curing, and you get a small smooth bump.

I’ve badly badly wanted an OS that supports multiple mice with multiple cursors on the screen.

Can a regular split ergonomic keyboard like the Dactyl Manuform not be separated arbitrarily?

Funny ... I did the exact same thing some years ago. Two cheap Dell OEM keyboards, roughly 60 degrees apart on a concave, L-shaped desk.

I found that doing that opened up my chest, instantly making me breath easier. Also it's basically impossible to slough over.

Kinesis Advantage 2.

Hard learning curve, macros, endless customization and no pain. The idea of using Apple keyboards without wrist support is temporary hack.

I have changed countless mechanical and ergonomic keyboards with no success. The concept of using your thumbs for most repetitive combinations is just astonishingly effective.

As a side effect I remapped left super to control and right supper to meta on all my laptops, caps lock is escape.

But nothing can compare to comfort and speed that I can reach on Kinesis Advantage.

The key to success with this keyboard is to remap it by your standards and wishes, I have seen many people complain about using your thumbs or arrow keys, square brackets.

The power of this keyboard besides ergonomic design is in a remapping functionality and complementary software.

Rarely nowadays I can say that some product or service is changing my life drastically for good. But Advantage is one of those life changing products.

I use two mice - one on each side - for the same reason.

My body switches between them without even thinking about it, and anecdotally I'd say the relief better than halved the "wear and tear" on each appendage.

Try the Moonlander keyboard!

I just got one, but I'm still using my old SteelSeries Apex M500 for work though because I'm just too slow to do my job effectively using it still. The learning curve is higher than I thought, even after remapping most of the keys to my preferences - just need to give it some time!

Similar experience here! Love the keyboard but wow it's a learning curve

Isn't one supposed to have the mouse in between the split keyboard for ergonomic reasons? Setting keyboard parts far from each other seems to be the direct opposite. Which setting should it be?

Hah, I'm used to home-row-finding bumps being subtle (which goes back to Actual Typewriters) but there's no reason they can't be half the size of the keycap :-)

Or just use a split keyboard, there are some dozen available nowadays: https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards

Personally, I'm using a Dygma Raise, after testing the Ergodox for a while. And the Dygma is really mostly perfect IMHO. I would prefer it to have an ortholinear layout, and an additional row with F-Keys (layers can be cumbersome when hands are not at homerow-position). But the build-quality and sane Thumb-cluster really makes it for me.

Though the argument about loudness of mechanical keys is understandable. But this can be solved with a proper audio-setup. Just look at all the streamers with their silent gaming-keyboards.

After some custom wooden cases for my ergodox, I'm really excited about the keyboardio model 100 https://keyboard.io/ basically an ergodox with style, and what seems a bit more ergonomy. I laughed a lot with the video for their last crowdfunding campaign, chicken jokes included :D

I've got 001 model and like it so much that getting 100 as the second one.

Without reading the article I thought that's what they meant.

For me the biggest QoL improvement has been switching to a split ortho keeb (https://github.com/foostan/crkbd). They are super cheap to build (corne is 42 switches which are the most expensive component of a keeb) and once you get the hang of it they are superior to any other typing experience.

Learning how to use a 40% had a steep learning curve, but after a few weeks I was very productive and now I don't even think about the layers.

Since corne is so easy to build it's a great introduction into building your own keyboards. I just recently purchased the components from keyhive and I think I only spent $110 -- if that? That might sound expensive for a keyboard you have to build yourself but the prices for custom built keyboards can get insane (in the thousands)

Absolutely love my Dygma Raise. Link for anyone interested: https://dygma.com/

My only gripe with it is that I wish the wrist pads were detachable - not because of the quality (which is good), but because I use a keyboard tray and they're a little bit too big for the amount of space I have. Also agree that an F-row would be nice, though I've gotten used to layer shifting for extra keys. I even have a layer that puts the letters on the right side of the keyboard onto the left side, so when I need to click around a lot while typing I can type using my left hand only and leave my right hand on my mouse.

The thumb cluster is perfect and the software does everything I need it to do. Customer support is great. And with their silent linear switch option (Kailh Silent Pinks), typing is very quiet and suitable for even an open office. No problems typing at full speed on it either since it's not an ortholinear layout, I was hitting my usual WPM (~135) the day I got it.

I think that this is meant as a "hack" - if you have two keyboards lying around and don't want to (or can't) purchase a new one. If you can, then yes, getting an actual split keyboard is far better.

However, the Dygma Raise has neither ortholinearity, nor concavity, nor a good thumb cluster (it's flat, not tilted to fit the actual strong muscle movement of your thumbs) - all of which improve ergonomics. See the Dactyl-Manuform for a build that has all of these three things.

Did you read the article?

> Not far enough apart.

Sure did. Just take a look at https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ or similar. There's a cable that separates the two keyboards and they can go further apart than the picture in the article. Or just replace the cable with a longer one.

There are two types of split keyboard. The first one is one solid body, with divided key segments. The second one are two separated body's, each with their own key-segment. With the second type, the bodies are connected with removable cables, which normally use standard-connections (usb or trrs usually). So they can easily be replaced for longer cables.

I have no idea about these custom keyboards, and now I am paralyzed through choices when going to the github link. What would be a good first split keyboard to try out?

My Kinesis Freestyle 2 is the reason why I can still work as a developer. With any other keyboard my wrists starts hurting after a few hours of work.

this seems a bit extreme. why not just buy a split keyboard?

https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/product/freestyle-edge/

I've had this for about a year and I'm quite happy with it.

i tend to bottom out a lot though, so i installed o-rings to make it a bit easier on my fingers. def worth the trouble though.

We desperately need more a more ergonomic interface w computation. Seen many careers ruined. Hope to see more along these lines.

I use two small keyboards that I velcro strap to my arms just past my hands so that I can move around freely while typing

Cheap chiclet keyboard giving you RSI? I've got the solution: two cheap chiclet keyboards!

How about two macbooks. then you get a dual display, too.

just have to figure out how to synchronize them

Might try this out since I have an extra Keychron K2 keyboard that I am not using.

There's a great open source keyboard called ergodox.

more important is to use ortholinear keyboard

I noticed when I started to exercise more seriously few years ago, all the pain from working 8h+ in front of a PC magically disappeared. But I think the key isn't just do the exercises for a good posture. Just commit to something a little more ( gym, tai chi, whatever you want ) and your body automagically will handle better the "bad habits".

TLDR: I noticed a lot of difference between just doing postural work and a fully committed "sport".

https://ergodox-ez.com/

Love the simplicity of this

Wow rubber dot, nice tip

i just set my keyboard like this and i can no longer touch type

Based on my own experience, I don't think any of this is necessary.

Context: Back about twenty years ago; startup; spending 18 hours a day, 7 days a week for about 2 years almost full time in front of the computer coding, electronics design, 3D CAD, etc.

I developed pain and soreness on both wrists. Inflammation too. They were warm to the touch. I resorted to things like coding with ice packs on my wrists. It sucked.

I also had context from work in another industry where I knew people who had surgery on their wrists due to the pain and inflammation. Not fun at all. And, no, it did not solve the problem.

Other than repetitive motion, the root cause is bad ergonomics. Splitting the keyboard or using two keyboards does not solve the problem.

You need four things:

1- A low actuation effort keyboard

2- A trackball --mice are horrible, they require far more motion and effort than the task demands

3- A good adjustable chair (Aeron is what I use) with adjustable arm rests

4- An ergonomic desk, not an office desk

#4 is where I went to work and designed my own [0] [1]. The other factors are somewhat subjective and require you to experiment until you find what you like.

The effect was almost instantaneous. You setup your chair to match the arm rest height to that of the wrist support bar on the desk. And you relax. You have to learn to relax. You hand naturally droops into the cavity where the keyboard and trackball are. The objective is minimal to no attitude (orientation) support tension on the upper tendons. When you eliminate this tension, the problem is gone.

The trackball makes it so you don't have to move all over the place to use the GUI. This is particularly true of a multimonitor or large monitor setup. Sorry to say this --because I know there are people who like them-- mice are horrible. The same is true of touch pads. Great for low cost integration into thin laptops, horrible for ergonomics. I use a trackball on my laptops as well.

If this worked for me (18 hours/day, 7 days a week, 2 years) it has to work for anyone doing less than that.

Normal office desks are horrible. They are a relic of the days when people wrote on paper by hand. A modern ergonomic desk designed for extended work on computers cannot have a single flat surface at 29 inches (74 cm) of height. That's ridiculous. The ergonomics of using a keyboard and mouse/trackball on such a surface are 100% wrong.

Measure the height from your elbow to the floor while relaxed on your chair. Femur bone should be horizontal, feet comfortably touching the ground, spine is comfortably vertical (not slouching), shoulders relaxed, forearm bent at 90 degrees (horizontal). Is that 29 inches? Nope. It's probably in the 25 to 26 inch range (63.5 to 66 cm). Guess the height of the keyboard shelf on my custom desk? The wrist support bar is about 1.5 inches (4 cm) high, sanded to about 600 grit and stained with Tung oil. It's reasonably friction free, not sticky or perspiration-inducing. The edges are rounded to, if I remember correctly, a 1/2 inch (1.3 cm) radius).

[0] https://i.imgur.com/S8gOPh7.jpg [1] https://i.imgur.com/PoKDNOk.jpg

Back when I had wrist pain the only thing that worked for me was mousing with a different hand, and using a split Goldtouch keyboard (not a fan of the key feel, but ergonomically it worked well for me). Then I got into weightlifting and I don't have wrist pain anymore and can use whatever keyboard or mouse I want. Not saying this works for everyone, obviously, but give it a try as well. It also works wonders for lower back pain, and just in general makes you feel better.

And use 2+ computers at once for increase performance at a fraction of the price. That's what I'm doing lol.

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