[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41591-020-00019-9
Edit: Oops...forgot to link the article. Added.
It's a lot harder to say how a fully vaccinated population will fare compared to a fully unvaccinated population. In the short term the unvaccinated population will certainly fare worse (more sick, more dead), but at a population level they will develop a stronger, longer lasting immunity and exert no mono-directional pressure. While in the fully vaccinated population, as long as the R0 is over 1 (which looks to be the case) the virus will be driven towards escape variants, it might not matter how many more people remain asymptomatic or how many fewer people die when new variants keep driving the pandemic forward and render the vaccines ineffective. It's population-level immunity that ends pandemics, immunity works very different on a population level than on an individual level.
Rather ironically if it turns out that this is indeed the case, then the people getting the vaccine are the "selfish" ones (protecting themselves short term from serious disease/death at the long term cost of the wider population) rather than the ones refusing the vaccine. Of course that's not entirely fair because people are doing it with the best of intentions and not out of "selfishness". I'm pointing this out more to demonstrate that things just aren't as simple as the media likes to portray it, i.e. with the non-vaccinated as the "selfish" ones.
If it turns out that vaccination campaigns do indeed do more harm to the population long-term than good (something we'll likely only know for certain after the pandemic is over or, more likely at this point, has become endemic), then medicine such as Ivermectin, even if only marginally effective at combating COVID starts to look a lot more interesting because it does not exert those same pressures on the virus.
There's several other ways the vaccines could end up hurting us in the long term, such OAS (Original Antigenic Sin) or ADE (Anti-body Dependent Enhancement), although it's looking really good on those fronts right now so I'm not worried about those.
The discourse going on at the moment on in general is really cancerous (even on HN sadly). As much as I find people who believe that there is no virus, or that vaccines are made to kill people, or following health advice from random internet sensations to be ridiculous, I find myself far more worried by the lack of intelligent discussion and the instant demonization and name-calling of anyone who asks questions that are critical of the vaccination campaigns. A large part of that I think is that the anti-vaxxers have been given so much media-attention (negative) that people assume anyone putting forward critical opinions "must be one those" and can be dismissed without notice.
No one knows what time will tell. Maybe this only has a one-in-a-thousand chance of ending up being the case. But I think it would be wise for people pushing for mandates to think about how society will look back at the COVID19 pandemic in say 50 years, if it turns out that the vaccination campaigns had a net-negative long-term effect. Is that really a risk we are willing to take? My take is that it would be wise to keep safe in any way we can: mask up, disinfect, get sun, keep fit, socialize responsibly, etc. And to avoid radical action before the science is settled, and vaccine mandates are radical. Science has a long history of settling on wrong for a while before getting it right, let's give it some time.
I'm wondering, at what point, if ever, would you decide that the COVID vaccines are safe / worth it? Honest question.
Also, as someone else mentioned here [1], isn't natural immunity plus vaccine-induced immunity considered even better than natural immunity alone? I haven't fact checked this but they said that was also found from one of the Israel studies. Based on this, wouldn't it still make sense to get the vaccine?
You also mentioned the media. Isn't it possible that conservative media is also manipulating the truth for their narrative? 90% of Fox News staff is vaccinated and yet they still cast doubt on the vaccine [2]. Also, Tucker Carlson won't say if he's been vaccinated or not [3], yet he's one of the big proponents telling people not to get vaccinated. I hear this criticism that the media is spreading misinformation, but it seems like if that's the case, we should consider that it could be happening on both sides.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28617742
[2] https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/sep/15/fox-news-vacci...
[3] https://www.thedailybeast.com/cnn-host-alisyn-camerota-calls...
This graphic demonstrates a good example as to the epitope coverage across S by both B-cells and T-cells: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/medrxiv/early/2021/07/05/202...
You would need to have a variant that selects past all of the epitope coverage of both B/T-cell and bypasses affinity maturation too. NTD and RBD already has great coverage, but the rest of the pre-fusion spike confirmation used in vaccines these days has even more coverage than just with RBD alone. I think that's why BNT162b1 failed, as it was a mRNA encoded receptor binding domain only.
Given how large the breadth (as in epitope coverage) already is in RBD alone, you would most likely disrupt ACE2 receptor binding too at the same time if there was a such a massive change all at once to render a vaccine useless.
If you managed to achieve an evolution rate of 250+ AA substitutions extremely quickly, all in one fell swoop, I’d have much much bigger concerns.
A lot of the variants these days select for escape for RBD class 1 and 2 nAbs, even Mu as of now (R346K is in this weird overlap between the different classes as per the Barnes classification).
You may want to see the following:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-021-00573-0
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2852-1
https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.abf9302
I think I read some others, but I'll have to dig through my browser history more.
But what's that? "anshorei" on HN wants us to stop vaccines, cause clearly that will just cause a super mutation to evolve?
If you believe that, you might just jump off a bridge right now. Because if it's not a COVID mutation, it will just be another virus evolving. They evolve every day! Evolutions big random number generator never stops! Theres a cell multiplying in your body right now, chances are it might just turn into cancer! Is that a risk you are willing to take?
This isn't measles. These aren't measles vaccines.