Their Baby Died in the Hospital. Then Came the $257,000 Bill
nytimes.com
nytimes.com
> Medical billing experts who reviewed the case described it as a dispute between a large hospital and a large insurer, with the patient stuck in the middle.
This seems really, REALLY common...an individual ends up soaking up the most bitter aftershocks of a care incident and the accompanying battle between two possibly-responsible parties.
I asked about one of these cases online for a friend at one point, and an insurance industry middle-man chimed in. Not to help out, but simply to become defensive, letting me know that he worked with these cases all the time, and you generally get what you pay for.
So next time pay more for insurance, was his point.
Meanwhile this person's Reddit profile was full of photos of his new Tesla. It made me sick to my stomach to have to tell my friend that yes, somebody replied, and no, it wasn't that helpful, and...let's change the subject for now.
If they charge $50, insurance will begrudgingly pay $5 if you're lucky.
So you have to charge $5000 for something fairly simple, in order to hopefully get close to $500
A few weeks after, it was quite a surprise to receive a not one, but two pricey ER bills!
While the hospital ended up waiving the second visit, I imagine many people either pay it or go into debt especially since it required a couple of hours during business hours to sort out.
Doing this all at once might not be palatable to a lot of people. In reality, boiling the frog slowly may be the better way to go here. Reduce their earnings a fraction each year, over say a 20 year timespan. Decreasing the eligibility age for Medicare each year by a year or so might partly accomplish this.
No, it's not an emergency room or a labor & delivery suite, so it's a it different than the article on this page.
This is what free-market healthcare looks like: https://surgerycenterok.com/
You don’t really want a true free market. You want a market with full price transparency. You want a market with lots of competition, and where no one in the market can get an unfair advantage over anyone else. And that only happens if it is a well-regulated market, which is a lot like a well-regulated militia.
Usually when people say something regarding the "free market" they aren't calling for abolition of the government in it's entirety unless they explicitly mention such, but loosened legislative measures taken on a specific segment of the existing market.
This system works relatively well and is particularly good in case something goes wrong and you need to spend some substantial time in hospital. And if the worst happens, you get the comfort of knowing that even though your family will lose a part of the income coming from your work, at least they won't end up in huge debts from medical bills.
https://ashishb.net/all/why-not-abolish-employer-provided-he...
I have long reached the maximum of having to pay near 800€ for public health care in Germany month by month with my salary - it covers me, my wife and two children. I'm well aware that most of the time the money is used for people who pay far less or nothing like retired, students, people with less income or refugees (solidarity it is called). Most of the time until I'm in need treatment myself...
I love to live in a country where nobody goes bancrupt because of a health bill. Where nobody has to live in fear of death if he cannot afford treatment. Where nobody has to choose between money and a dead child or mother.
Don't you see how many social and crime problems come from a missing health system? If I would live in constant fear of death or bancruptcy I might as well easier decide to rob a bank, do cyber crime or kill someone in anger with my gun (only source of fake power in my life) or do some insider trade or whatever. A death threat hanging over you and your family, if you lack financial success, is making you do wrong things (crime) and feel bad things (fear, anger, desperation) leading to undesired behaviour (even more crime, unhealthy life with stress and obesity and much more).
An affordable and solidarity public health system is the foundation for a healthy society and mentally healthier citizens. It has exacly zero to do with communism or socialism, it's an investment in having a better country for everyone.
Change my mind.
I have a nasty medical condition that necessitates ER trips. I know all three ERs. There’s the good one, the OK one, and the terrible one.
The problem is I don’t get to chose my own insurance. My employer does.
I know exactly which doctors, specialists, and ERs are best for me.
Doesn’t matter. My employer, who is remote and employs nobody else in the state, has determined who I can and can’t see.
And they’ve done it completely blindly.
It’s a messed up system.
But the idea that people won’t avoid bad hospitals, including ERs, is untrue.
OP's point is valid: it's reasonable to expect someone to look up information before deciding on, say, where to eat that evening. It's farcical to expect someone experiencing acute angina or stroke symptoms to inform themselves about their free-market healthcare options by looking up online reviews or whatever for local ERs.
The problem is most people have no choice.
For ER care individual doctor ratings are unimportant, because you have no idea who the doctor will be.
What matters is the institution. And they absolutely do have reputations.
For example, Kaiser Permenante has a reputation so foul it’s known nationwide, despite only operating a few states.
Also, I’ve never had any difficulty getting an ambulance to take me to the ER of my choice (that is, my insurers choice), and I’ve done this many, many times.
Your experience hints at some of the flaws in US healthcare:
> For ER care individual doctor ratings are unimportant, because you have no idea who the doctor will be.
Right, and if the ER doctor you happen to draw is out of network for you, RIP your savings and/or credit score. Isn't this a decently common problem, where even an "in-network" institution employs practitioners who are "out of network" for you, so you thought you were covered by your insurance company's rules, only to be surprised days after treatment?
EDIT: this "out-of-network provider at an in-network institution" problem was so common and frustrating that Congress has had to ban the practice, as linked in the article: https://archive.is/50VQv
> take me to the ER of my choice (that is, my insurers choice)
Leaving the choice of ER to one's insurer doesn't sound like my idea of "free market" healthcare. What if they choose your area's "bad" ER? I suppose you can indirectly pre-choose your ER by choosing an insurer which covers the ER of your choice -- that is, unless you get insurance through your employer, in which case I guess you'd have to purchase private coverage for your ER of choice.
Different institutions have different reputations in single-payer publicly funded health systems too, so I'm not so sure if that's the crux of the matter. What upsets me is that those people who are in the most desperate need of healthcare are almost by definition in the worst possible position to make an informed choice. Picture an unconscious victim of an accident, violence, stroke, heart attack, etc. Oh, and it seems generally impossible for even an awake and alert person to "shop around" by comparing price quotes for the healthcare they need, preventing competitive choice.
Then there's the issue that ERs must stabilize and treat anyone who enters, regardless of ability to pay. Someone has to cover the cost of this.
What kind of "market" keeps prices secret from incapacitated consumers? I think MereInterest summed it up perfectly: The nature of medical emergencies prevents actual markets.
And it doesn’t require a free market to refrain from using “bad places.” I avoid the “bad DMV” like the plague - and that’s a branch of the state government.
Regarding free market health care. It can be done - a good example is Canada.
In Canada, health care is free to patients. The state pays doctors directly. The prices are set by the state, so doctors compete on quality/patient preference.
In America, almost all hospitals are nominally nonprofit (religious, university, etc). In Canada they are often for-profit (there are quite a few public ones too.)
Patients can see whoever they want. Good hospitals get patients, bad ones don’t.
Good hospitals make profits, while bad ones don’t.
That seems like a good system to me.
My Canadian relatives love it. The comparison I made is really just me paraphrasing them.
I do get your point in seeing regulations and other healthcare BS as racketeering stifling competition.
There isn't much choice right now. Make the wrong choice, e.g. which emergency room, you might have to wrestle with unimaginably huge mystery bills. Again perhaps that's the racketeering you bring up.
But to me, it seems like markets - if we have to concede that language - as huge as nationwide healthcare create way too big of $ barriers for upstarts to try and come in and compete even if we had very low bureaucracy. I personally think a nationalized system is the best solution and I think we can come up with some hybrid Americanizations that introduce more competition within the system.
If the proposed reconciliation passes it gets us closer. just keep expanding medicare/aide until everyone is covered. And they are trying to allow drug price negotiation e.g. competition - which is insane that's not legal right now. Baby steps. But IMHO adding to the albatross costs way more than doing the hard thing of a near complete new system.
Large organizations can look out for themselves, Governments, in an ideal world, should entirely exist to serve the people and should also be comprised of them. The problem with elections is that it, by and large, dissuades competent people who would otherwise be good members of government and attracts among the worst kind of person who is hungry for power which lobbies play on to get their way.
But the problem in the US I think is that the society is so divided that it got stuck and certain powers want it exacly divided like that. With a totally polarized 50/50 population nothing important will ever change, everything is a big circus. I hope the best for the US citizens though. If the US continue their democratic downward spiral this all will end up in an even bigger crisis with even more individuals left behind.
The whole argument that it will be better with everyone is absurd. You cannot point to other countries examples when we know what the US does. If advocates of changes in the current system cannot fix IHS or the VA then they are incapable of fixing the rest of it.
The U.S. has capable people. The best academics in the world. It's making me sad to hear stories about citizens in such situations and the seeing other consequences.
I thought about it a few times in my life. This is the number wrong reason to not move to the US. Despite all the chances you have there, you could die or go bancupt because of some fine print in a health insurance contract. Reason number two is I don't want to get shot by some (for other reasons) angry citizen for taking his parking lot accidently or similar...
At soon as you have an employment you will have to pay a bit up to about 800€ for higher salary levels for public health insurance - half of which you never see in any calculation, payed silently by the employer and the other half reduced from your pay check.
Additionally you pay mandatory retirement insurance, loss of work insurance and old age care taking insurance plus tax. (not sure about translations)
So from 7500€ a month you will end up with about 4900€ after all this, if you are married otherwise you pay a bit more tax. If you cannot find work and cannot pay you have all the same benefits, except the retirement will be minimal.
To sum up have social security with this. Every treatment is payed (sometimes you have to pay a little in top, let's say you want plastic instead of metal teeth fixes, basically for everything not mandatory in the eyes of the doctor you have do pay the difference).
But mandatory stuff is completely covered, up to brain tumor removal with the particle accelerator in Heidelberg or so.
Some fine print:
If you and your wife work both pay for family insurance (so up to 1600 together if both earn very well). If one works alone and pays there is only one payment.
Actually you can opt out op the public health insurance as soon as you reach the maximum. Then you can opt for a private insurance.
To sum up again: with all this Germany is certainly not the place to become filthy rich by saving money from your income as employee. But for about third of your salary you get a a) good infrastructure (tax), b) mediocre but ok, bancruptcy protected retirement, 3) no need to fear health issues from financial side, d) job loss insurance for a year (pays on about 60% after that social security... much less like a flat for the family and 500€) and e) care of a certain degree when of old age.
Quite a good deal for me. Still it's better to save also several 100k for retirement. To become rich here you need to start a business, be very creative or become a top manager or politican like everywhere else.
P.S. 5AM here sorry for bad grammar, typos and information gaps =)
I think at most I had to pay like 200 EUR myself for something after the fact. But overall, the German health system was amazing.
I had similar stories in the NHS which I think is even better. Too bad the UK government is dismantling it.
First, we have a strange relationship with taxes. The highest amounts are paid to the Federal Government (at the nation-level) and as you travel down the chain to state and then local (city/county), less tax money is owed to these places typically. Regardless of where someone sits on the political spectrum, it is widely accepted that the federal government does not efficiently spend the money, with citizens receiving no tangible value. For example, during the pandemic, many people got $1200 stimulus checks and a "good luck" even though taxpayers fork over thousands over the course of their lives. Stuff that actually affects our lives directly is often done at the local level, with roads, for example, funded by a tax on gas in California (and some federal dollars, too).
Given the perception of how grossly incompetent, understaffed, or ill-prepared government offices are to deal with anything, people are not exactly lining up to have such an inefficient system provide them with insurance.
We also have an accessibility problem in that every process that one must initiate to receive most government benefits, is rife with bureaucratic, over-reaching, and easy to mess-up paperwork designed by people who's goal it is to dish out as few benefits as possible.
Having spent a bit of time in Germany myself, it's clear the attitude is different. Germans (and EU citizens) actually receive benefits from the taxes they pay that are both accessible and tangible. Having medical expenses paid by the state via taxation is ultimately what creates a more healthy society.
Second is the fact that we allow large lobbies and organizations (like insurance companies) to influence what legislation gets passed. This is also so far removed from people's every day life that this sort of non-corruption, special-interest sway happens all the time. Insurance companies have a great thing going on for them, imagine being able to charge whatever you want and be wildly inept and unwilling to actually provide services (pay out) when your customer requires it as per the policy you sold them. They fund (behind the scenes) mass-marketing campaigns (yes, instead of paying actual claims) that spread propaganda about how bad healthcare is if left up to the government.
There are other problems, but maybe this helps see why it's such a big social issue here. This is just my take on what I find to be two major ones.
Anyways I hope the US society will find a solution that fixes this sad situation. It's sad to hear and see such stories and think about the victims of such political failiure (not that such failure would not happen here too, especially the lobby influence an corruption is a thing in Germany - sometimes it feels like our Country is run mostly by special interest). The US once was such an inspiring country, I really hope you find a way to overcome all this.
Particularly for the last point, socialized medicine is often weirdly spun as bureaucrats taking away your freedom of choice and preventing you from getting health care ("death panels" and all that). So people visualize the current fucked-up system, imagine what it would be like if they had even more obstructive bureaucracy dictating whether you're allowed to get surgery and how long you need to wait in line, and often course they think that sounds even worse -- although the reality is that would be better for most people than the status quo of only being able to get surgery if you can afford it, and still risking getting bankrupted in the process.
The American system generates a tremendous amount of administrative work, and reduces the quality of care. If you've ever been in a doctors office, or a hospital in the US, they are constantly looking at the paperwork, not at you. Totally different in Germany. (Which was weird because in virtually every other respect Germans seem to love paperwork!)
Like a fish that doesn't know what water feels like, it dawned on me how stressful all that paperwork is, and how much worse it makes you feel, when you are already feeling bad. And of course in the US any contact at all with the healthcare system is not just painful now, it could be painful for years.
The reason we don't change is because people don't know or believe it could be better. And that, in turn, is because some of that huge money flowing through the healthcare system pays the salaries of professional sophists and lawyers who are very good at playing on the intellectual weaknesses of an American audience. They have lots of tools, but the two most effective seem to be an appeal to "American exceptionalism" - if we didn't invent it then its not good - and the classic strawman attack that anything that isn't the current system is communism. A foolish claim that has no merit, not least of which because none of those same people would assert that Germany is communist.
It's a very sad state of affairs. The US is like a mean old grannie being robbed by a handsome and clever son-in-law who plays on her prejudices and ignorance. Even when other family members try to warn her, NO, she snaps, he tells me you are the monsters, and he is handsome and clever and better than you! There is a villain here, but it's hard to have much sympathy for the victim, either.
We need fewer "systems."
1. U.S. health-care system ranks last among 11 high-income countries, researchers say https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/08/05/global-healt...
But it doesn't! At least not across the board. Yes, there are diseases and conditions for which the best treatment is given in American health care facilities, but it's not consistent. And certainly not for routine stuff.
The truly wealthy travel to other countries to get treatment if that's where the best specialists work. Among the countries with better options for a variety of things are Canada, Singapore. Singapore, Japan, Spain, United Kingdom (yes, even with the much-disparaged NHS) Dubai, and Israel. Canada for drug and alcohol addiction treatment (the US is still mostly stuck in the addiction-as-moral-failing mode), Japan and Singapore for cancer treatments.
And there's one other thing: it can actually be cheaper to fly to another country, get treated there, and fly back to the US, than to stay in the US and get stuck with a US healthcare bill. And there's nothing the rich love more than keeping their money.
Not that I needed it so far, but I get that they can be massive, especially for anything dental. This tends to be funny every few years on routine checkups at the dentist when they try to sell this and that which isn't covered by anything, and I'm like: 'No, just the basics, dammit!'
At least it's not going to bankrupt you unexpetedly
Other countries don't put up with this shit. Even very small and poor countries have a single-payer medical system with the government underwriting the bills for people who are disadvantaged, thus preventing the ridiculous '$1000 dollars for a bag of salt water' kind of charge.
How come the 'exceptional, indispensable' country, the one that's 'the world's sole superpower' somehow can't afford it?
It can of course, except that Big Medicine wants to have its cake and eat it too.