What a way to go
What a way to go
It looks like these simulations were referenced in the illustration & chart just ahead of the Conclusion section.
Also some pretty interesting results in the Sandia study: >> “The asteroid that caused the extensive damage was much smaller than we had thought,” says Sandia principal investigator Mark Boslough of the impact that occurred June 30, 1908. “That such a small object can do this kind of destruction suggests that smaller asteroids are something to consider. Their smaller size indicates such collisions are not as improbable as we had believed.”
Definitely worth checking out [1] https://newsreleases.sandia.gov/releases/2007/asteroid.html
Imagine holding a silver cup. You raise it to give a toast. All of a sudden, the wine in your cup begins to boil, your flesh turns to ash and flies away as if someone with an infinity gauntlet had willed you away, the cup melts and splatters silver over your charred bones.
The only other place where I think I was impressed by scenery of this sort was the opening to Terminator 2: Judgment Day. It seems that reality is even scarier than what our writers and cinematographers can imagine.
Now, that has a lot of duck-and-cover type stuff that should be familiar to older American readers. But if your teacher is prone to irony and dark humor, you can get some extras. In our case, it was a military joke that went thus:
"What should you do if you're a soldier, and a nuclear weapon goes off in the immediate vicinity?"
"Stand still and hold your AK in front of you, arms fully stretched out."
"Why?"
"So that the molten metal doesn't drip on and burn through your government-issued boots. Another recruit could still use them."
But TBH, would it even matter? I mean, to be that near for it to happen, there is so much radiation under way that it makes you unconscious before you even know it, I'd guess.
Maybe you'd see a flash, and then you would be gone. In the timescale of such things loooong before anythings starts to heat, char, be blown apart, away, to ashes and steam.
Which means it is very possible that we will see one in our lifetime. Hopefully it'll hit the ocean.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229492086_Historica...
Despite that, hitting the city in OPs article, even 35 centuries ago, still seems like an extremely low probability event happened.
Eventually a paper [1] was published that narrowed down the actual source of this tsunami to a massive earthquake, getting quite a bit of media coverage [2] at the time.
[0] http://cavereserve.org/blog/?p=410
[1] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11069-016-2650-0
[2] https://www.livescience.com/48362-massive-historical-hawaii-...
Is it possible we could pass through a non-uniform, high probability density region? Perhaps a debris field where the orbit intersection with Earth is infrequent, but periodic?
Just read that bit - six cities ! 7,000 buildings. Imagine something breaking windows in LA and SF.
(wikipedia)
Not relevant to a prehistoric explosion.
Around that time, the non-Biblical Baal was supposed to have been some kind of sky/thunder deity, a proto-Zeus.
"duck and cover" which people tend to scoff at seemed to be exactly the correct approach as a schoolteacher saved their class that way.
This is extremely hyperbolic. Breaking a window is not "smashed".
Heh, in more ways than one I suppose
Years ago,while I was teaching the starts to kids on the mountain at night one of them asked for a bright star on the sky. We looked at the star and it became bigger until it was a big ball of fire so bright that we had to look away.
For two or three seconds, it became as bright as in daylight, but shadow moving ultrafast.
Then nothing,it became dark again. No sound, no nothing.
Nobody talked about that in the news. Most people were sleep. It must be normal.
You can't calculate the frequency of an event from one occurrence. At least, not without near infinite error bars.
As dredmorbius points out, we actually have a fairly comprehensive dataset of smaller events we can also use, plus a couple of bigger ones: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28612676
A thing to keep in mind is how very few cities there were 3600 years ago. There might have been 10-50 million people in total, the size of a single small town in China today.
But your prior probability distribution is either (1) based on a lot of other data, so that the final result is not based on the single data point, or (2) garbage.
> Your untutored intuition
It wasn't either, thanks, and its arrogant as fuck for you to assume this.
> As dredmorbius points out, we actually have a fairly comprehensive dataset of smaller events we can also use
I wasn’t commenting on a claim about what could be estimated based on that wider dataset.
> A thing to keep in mind is how very few cities there were 3600 years ago.
That has no impact on the uncertainty of the estimate from a single data point, only the actual estimate.
To do Bayesian reasoning at all, you need an initial prior probability distribution based on zero events, and all your posterior results are calculated from it. So if it's really "garbage" you're kind of in trouble regardless of how much data you have. In fact, it's easy to construct priors that cause Bayesian methods to give results that are obviously garbage by any standard even after updated with arbitrarily large amounts of data. This is often used as an argument for preferring frequentist statistics.
This is a fairly central aspect of Bayesian statistics: what can you pick as an "uninformative prior" for an unbounded distribution? A uniform distribution over the entire positive number line unfortunately isn't normalizable, so we unavoidably have some kind of falloff as we go to sufficiently low frequencies, and an exponential distribution is the least unreasonable thing to pick.
But, if we're completely uninformed and don't know anything about Earth or the universe, we might start with a prior exponential distribution whose median is at "one city-destroying-sized meteor explosion on Earth per nanosecond," not realizing that the Earth would be molten if this happened, or at "one city-destroying-meteor explosion on Earth per googol years", not realizing that the universe is vastly younger than that and in fact meteors do hit occasionally. Then, given the observed data that apparently a city was thus destroyed 3600 years ago, when cities covered maybe 0.001% of the land, and apparently less than ten cities have been destroyed since, and definitely none in the last 200 years even though cities spread to cover 1% of the land, the first of these gives us the posterior "city-destroying meteors happen every few hundred to every few thousand years" (even though it's not "based on a lot of other data" and the prior isn't very similar to that posterior, it succumbs to the evidence of those quintillions of nanoseconds when no cities got destroyed), while the second one gives us a much less reasonable estimate which could reasonably be described as "near infinite error bars" or "garbage".
So, in summary:
• you can compute the frequency of an event from a single observed occurrence;
• your prior does not have to derive from a lot of other data for this, not even the fact that the Earth is not currently molten;
• the only Bayesian way to derive a prior probability from a lot of other data is to use a prior that does not derive from any data, so any epistemology that rejects such priors as "garbage" necessarily rejects purely Bayesian reasoning entirely;
• such an uninformative prior can be obviously wrong in certain ways, to the point of absurdity, and still give you reasonable inference results; and
• these are very elementary facts about Bayesian statistics.
In short, the things you are saying are (with respect to Bayesian statistics) as incorrect as claims like "you can't trisect an angle," "you can't subtract 4 from 3," or "3 - 4 = -1 but there's no square root of -1."
> > Your untutored intuition
> It wasn't either, thanks, and its arrogant as fuck for you to assume this.
You evidently didn't know the elementary aspects of Bayesian statistics I explained above, so arrogant as fuck or no, I turned out to be right about that; I'd describe it more as an inference than an assumption. I probably can't teach you anything while you're in ego defense mode, but maybe I can keep you from misleading anybody else. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, and if there is some way I could have totally dismissed your incorrect opinion without hurting your feelings, please tell me what it is so I can do it in the future.
> That has no impact on the uncertainty of the estimate from a single data point, only the actual estimate.
Yes, you're right, or very close anyway (since a proper prior for this problem necessarily depends on at least some kind of scale parameter, the shape of the results will vary slightly depending on at least the ratio between that scale parameter and the actual frequency estimate).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_verified_oldest_pe...
So, maybe two?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_event#Frequency_and_ris...
I give it about a 70% shot.
This made their other arguments a little weaker as we as it reduced the temperature evidenced to just that of the melted bricks - which makes it possible that what they found was evidence of contemporary furnaces and/or other fire events/war/etc.
Still pretty compelling overall.
I understand they theorize an airburst, but I wonder if it would be possible to find a "ground zero" for the explosion, and thus more direct evidence.
They found it in the rubble layer they are studying? How would it get there if it wasn't produced at the same time as the rest of the stuff in that layer?
For things in a sediment layer to not be of equal age, you need some sort of transport mechanism to move the quartz there from some earlier or later period, and there's not much convective motion in dirt.
If you don’t respect consistency and prior probability, then causality itself breaks down, and I’m wondering how exactly do you feed yourself and cross streets safely. Unless you know perfectly well how reasoning works and you just don’t apply that when you comment on science articles.
The same way some people say what happened to Mohenjo Daro?
> In some Hindu texts, Agneya is considered the most powerful form of "holy energy" ever to have been created. The "Agneya Astra" is believed to have been the most powerful of the ancient nuclear energies and was often invoked by the most elite of Gods to ensure the victory of good forces. Hindu texts associate the Agneya Astra as a near infinite energy source with the power, brilliance, heat, and light exceeding those of a billion trillion Suns.
If I'm not misremembering history, then their delay in action - due to the difficulty of getting news of the situation out of the area of destruction - led to the bombing of Nagasaki as well.
It was a bit more complicated than that [0]. There was intense resistance to the Allies' demands for unconditional surrender. Japanese scientists confirmed on the 7th August (the day after the bombing) that Hiroshima had been atom bombed and Nagasaki was bombed on the 9th. The Japanese didn't actually surrender until the 15th August, following a failed coup d'état in which elements of the Army rebelled against the emerging surrender plans [1].
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_a...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempted_c...
According to an ethnic japanese teacher of mine, the Japanese remembered very well how badly it went for them when they tried to invade Mongolia and lost to URSS, and they were more afraid of post-war occupation by URSS than by USA, thus why the surrender became more accepted.
The Emperor singled-out the atomic bombs in his surrender message. Japan was depending on the USSR to mediate a conditional surrender, until they entered the war, which closed that avenue. And the reason the USSR hastily entered the war was because of the atomic bomb, they knew it was about to end. Japan was no doubt very concerned about a second front in the war, but I don't know of any particular fear of the USSR... Japan had soundly defeated a pre-USSR Russia in the Russo-Japanese War.
It's quite possible that they would have endured the USSR joining the war effort, if not for the additional "shock" of the atomic bombs, and Truman's bluff that the US would be dropping one every week...
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/pacific/#t...
Phones / telegrams and cameras existed.
Nagasaki happened 3 days later, I find it hard to believe information couldn't travel that fast.
It didn't take days, but it did take many hours for Tokyo to realize that indeed Hiroshima was devastated in an attack. Some officers even thought it was a traditional bombing raid and that there was a technical issue or even sabotage with their communication lines between Hiroshima and Tokyo. Tho Officer Corps at first had little knowledge to understand that it might have been an atomic attack, and that therefore the war had changed in a very serious manner.
There were confused reports of a large explosion. As others have noted, there was no large observed flight of US/Alied aircraft, was would have been typical of a bombing raid.
It wasn't until the early afternoon that a Japanese Imperial Army aircraft was flown over the city and made the first direct assessment of the damage incurred to those outside the city. It wasn't until the United States Government informed the Japanese via diplomatic cable the next day that it was clear that what had delivered the damage was a new type of weapon.
That initial symptom of loss of communications is actually highly typical of major disasters. For smaller incidents, a more usual problem is that those directly involved simply fail to accept or change their viewpoint to understand what it is that's transpiring. In almost any large disaster, though, a highly consistent consequence is loss of regular or effective means of communications, such that this itself is a fair indication of the scope and scale of a disaster.
Compare for example the HMS Sheffield attack during the Falklands War.
http://www.cddc.vt.edu/host/atomic/hiroshim/hiro_med.html#AT...
https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/1wf9yc/on_disa...
https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/2ab25z/on_disa...
At this point in the war the Americans had been hitting Japanese cities with 300-500 super heavy bomber firebombing raids for four months. After bombing all the major cities the Americans were now well into their list of twenty five smaller 75,000 to 300,000 population cities.
So Hiroshima was just another day in Japan, just another bombed city. The only thing new to the Japanese was that the destruction was from a new kind of bomb, and the following morning an investigation group had been formed.
The Japanese leadership met the following morning, discussed that the city was wiped out via a new bomb, and decided to continue fighting while seeing what kind of better terms they could get before surrendering. Which is what they had been doing for quite some time, and continued to do even as the Soviets declared war on them a few days later.
News of the attack traveled to the Tokyo quickly.
For example, a major Go championship was being played on the outskirts of Hiroshima at the time of the bomb explosion. Although the windows of the building the game were played in were blown out, and one of the players knocked over, gameplay resumed a few hours later and the match was finished. (https://senseis.xmp.net/?AtomicBombGame) It was assumed in Tokyo that day that the players were probably killed, indicating that news of the city being hit had traveled there.
When you see a SINGLE B-29 bomber, you ignore it. Its just a scout, and one bomber can't do much damage... Until Hiroshima happened. Its unbelievable: the "rules" of the war changed overnight, in a dramatic way that no one in the Japanese army could have possibly imagined. Every __SINGLE__ bomber "scout" could in fact be, the next nuclear bomb.
Japan didn't have the resources to fight against singular bombers anymore. They focused only on the groups of bombers. At this point, it was clear that their air-force was soundly defeated.
> Japan didn't have the resources to fight against singular bombers anymore. They focused only on the groups of bombers. At this point, it was clear that their air-force was soundly defeated.
It doesn't really make sense that it is easier to take down 10 bombers than 1, does it?
It sounds like you mean the hypothetical where as many bombers were each sent individual to nuke as many cities that would be harder to defend against, because any bombers that got through would do so much more damage.
So it's important to differential between potential destruction and actual destruction. The firebombings did incontrovertibly more damage, and after the war both governments had reason to not emphasize this.
https://www.toptenz.net/brutal-facts-about-general-curtis-le...
This is not to say anything nice about the Axis powers, but more to dispel the illusion that the American military were some kind of heroic force.
If you fire an imprecise weapon at a group of 10 bombers, your odds of hitting one of them can be up to 10x what it is if the same weapon fired at a single bomber.
If you have limited ammunition, it is therefore sensible to wait for the group of 10 before firing.
So it's important to differential between potential destruction and actual destruction. The firebombings did incontrovertibly more damage, and after the war both governments had reason to not emphasize this.
Yeah. The USA invented a weapon (napalm) specifically intended to target the poorest neighborhoods in Japan. And those neighborhoods were so vulnerable exactly because the Japanese government didn't care about the people living there.
It was much safer to talk about how big and threatening nuclear bombs were.
In 1944, these were largely "strategic" bombers: who had more range than our fighters. I believe they were unescorted (our fighters / carriers simply didn't have enough range yet to provide assistance).
These large "superfortress" bombers may have had machine gun defenses, but they couldn't dodge or dogfight. They were sitting ducks (albeit at higher altitudes than Japanese aircraft could follow, but these superfortresses weren't made for air-superiority... not at all).
This means that if a Japanese fighter / interceptor was most efficient vs these strategic bombing runs. Once you shot down one bomber, you're already to shoot down a 2nd or 3rd. Your most efficient use of fighters was therefore against groups of bombers.
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Its not about the "difficulty" of the task, and more about the "efficiency" of the task. One Ace pilot could kill 2 or 3 bombers during the defense of a city.
But if only 1-bomber "scout" were going somewhere, its just not worth your ace pilot's time or energy. The best they could do is shoot down just one enemy bomber.
Given their heavy defensive armaments, I would not describe that as a 'sitting duck'. As Japan lost the ability to actually put planes in the air, B-29 guns started getting stripped out, because they were no longer necessary.
Yes, they were big targets, but they were also flying quickly, at high altitudes. A fighter only carries so much ammunition, can quickly expend it, and has poor accuracy when shooting at a distant, fast-moving target. Due to the fuel shortages, available fighter loiter time was very low, so it doesn't get more than one, maybe two chances in a sortie to even take a shot at a B-29. And even if some of its shots hit, it's still quite likely that the bomber will make it back home.
If you got shot at early, you simply drop your bombs (maybe over rural farmland) and hit the engines as hard as you can. You wanted to fall into the part of the sea where the US-Navy still controlled the area.
The bombers were flighting high enough that even if they were shot down... there was a chance of being rescued after a crash landing. But the crash landing absolutely had to be outside of the control of the Japanese. As such, more engine power, less guns, more bombs.
Drop the bombs if attacked unexpectedly, and drift towards the Navy.
If all goes well... with a bit of luck, you outrun the enemy on the way back as well. Your plane is much lighter after the payload has been dropped
"...We had decided to take out the guns and gunners to make up for the shortage of airplanes, because it would be another factor in helping increase the bombload. However, if the change to low altitude had been quite a step to take, then going in at low altitude with half a crew was something else!"
The firebombing of Japan was done at low altitude, not high altitude.
Do you have a source on heavy bombers over Japan dropping bombs on farmland and fleeing if attacked? That seems against almost every principal of bomber warfare. Lone bombers are much easier to kill than a formation, and an entire formation jettisoning bombs and abandoning their attack just because a few fighters showed up, or AA fire began is hard for me to comprehend.
I don't think carriers (or carrier air wings) were involved in the bombing of the Japanese mainland. The famous bombing of Tokyo that you reference was all B-29 superfortresses, launched from a land-base in mariana islands.
Superfortresses were so high in altitude, that they couldn't be escorted by typical fighters. Indeed, that was its #1 defense mechanism: just fly higher than other planes (which it could do because of the marvels of pressurized cabins: oxygen masks just weren't good enough to reach that height.)
I'm sure the Japanese fighter pilots would fly as high as reasonably possible before shooting their guns at the bombers.
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There were a few attempts at strategic bombing in 1942 from Chinese bases (ally of the USA at the time). But a single mission used up the entire fuel supply from those bases: it was possible but just not practical. The USA would have to island hop to somewhere closer before attacking the mainland... which began in full capacity in 1944.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doolittle_Raid
[2] Because the USSR was not at war with Japan, by the rules of neutrality, the crew got to drink vodka and play cards for the next year, until they 'escaped' Soviet custody into UK/US occupied territories. Their bomber, however, remained.
But with 15 of the 16 bombers being destroyed and the remaining 1 captured in the mission, it does show that the Doolittle Raid was very impractical outside of the propaganda purpose. (Proving to the American people that it was possible, though impractical, to strike Japan probably was a huge win for morale, and possibly well worth the destruction of all those bombers).
1. By mid-1945, Japan no longer had any fuel for those fighters.
2. B-29s cruised at 40,000', way out of reach of Japanese fighters.
At that point in the war, whether or not you see a single, or 50 B-29s, Japanese air defense would ignore them, because Japan no longer had a working air defense. The only difference is that in the latter, the firefighting crews would start getting ready.
> It is worth speculating that a remarkable catastrophe, such as the destruction of Tall el-Hammam by a cosmic object, may have generated an oral tradition that, after being passed down through many generations, became the source of the written story of biblical Sodom in Genesis. The description in Genesis of the destruction of an urban center in the Dead Sea area is consistent with having been an eyewitness account of a cosmic airburst, e.g., (i) stones fell from the sky; (ii) fire came down from the sky; (iii) thick smoke rose from the fires; (iv) a major city was devastated; (v) city inhabitants were killed; and (vi) area crops were destroyed. If so, the destruction of Tall el-Hammam is possibly the second oldest known incident of impact-related destruction of a human settlement, after Abu Hureyra in Syria ~ 12,800 years ago.
https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/victoria-s-volcanic-...