Seems like Apple has a very anti-competitive position, no?
To me this goes all the way back to the walled garden argument. Apple sat on, what some may consider, a straw man arguing that they couldn't deliver security to their customers without it. Fast forward all these years and Apple's walled garden seems to be failing rather regularly for the trifecta of their: users, developers and the system in general. Users get less choice in the app store when Apple wants to compete directly, developers with good ideas who aren't willing to sell out to Apple will pay the price of their livelihood drying up over night if you don't give Apple what they want and finally we get things like no-click zero days on a routine basis these days.
A watch is now a walled garden? Does Casio have to open its OS?
Either these are not general computing devices or there's no line, a fridge or microwave or a console are general computing as well -- and device makers have no rights to make a product from digital parts as well as mechanical parts without having to make it open to digital fiddling, and secure it dragging in that new threat model.
And don’t squeeze out that “cOnSoLeS aReNt cOmPuTeRs” bullshit. They’re closer to computers than a goddamn wristwatch.
I think the reason this worked, and the reason it’s still sort of confusing to people, is that the iPhone is a phone, and showed up at phone stores. People viewed as a super-powered iPod, not a computer.
I think the difference is that Apple wants people to buy these devices as your primary computing device. Are you OK when Apple locks down the Mac line? What if you couldn't use Brew to install open source software? For a not insignificant portion of their buyers that may be OK.
I agree that consoles have their own anti-competitive issues, but they're not the same. Copy-cat games have always existed. The difference is that Sony's not going to pull a Rockstar game exclusively built for their platform to directly compete. So while I'm trying to see the parallel, it's not quite the same in my opinion.
I'm struggling to see any argument about watches that doesn't apply at least as much to game consoles.
In fact, the 'general purpose computer' will historically be seen as some kind of very stupid aberration, who ever thought that giving end users that kind of power was a good idea? /s
Even in digital, beige box server, IaaS, PaaS, SaaS, FaaS, applications, devices, apps, screens... different waterlines, none of them magic. Which waterline do you have the right to "run whatever you want"? Which waterline is a business ok to say, from here down, it's my product?
Anti-circumvention laws saying DRM means hands off altogether are different from saying a maker must take extra steps to make it easier for you to mod the device they invested R&D in, must allow your mod at potential harm to other mods on the device, or a maker must change their business model to facilitate malware and benevolent app devs alike.
There's a market segment for beige boxes and Raspberry PIs. Not every device with digital parts supporting digital mods, plug-ins, add-ons, cartridges, apps, whatever you call them, has to be forced to be a Raspberry Pi.
You have a right to remove the warning label from your mattress, or root your phone, but Sealy doesn't have to perforate the tag and Samsung doesn't have to give you a toggle.
I'm sorry but this is where I'm going to have to bow out of the conversation.
The problem is that building platforms is expensive and if people can use your thing for whatever they want, that thing that they want is often not giving you money. My conclusion is that there shouldn't even be game consoles. They're just a tax on everyone that wants to play games.
I’ve wondered about this for a while. After about 2015 when the MBP was steadily losing features and gaining problems I was certain that my next machine couldn’t be a Mac. I was certain that the Mac would be rapidly becoming a glorified iPhone.
The trick is, I don’t know where to draw that line. One thought about jumping ship to Linux full time, but I haven’t been able to trust the setup. I’ve heard Windows with WLS is good, but haven’t tried it.
If you don't allow any third-party developers to make apps for your device, you have a closed garden and no anti-competitive conflict. If you allow all third-party developers to make apps for your device, you have an open garden and no anti-competitive conflict. If you allow some third-party developers, but not some others, to make apps for your device, you have a walled garden and a potential anti-competitive conflict.
As long as some developers are allowed to make apps for this device -- be it a watch, a safety needle, or a 60,000 sq ft rack-server center -- barring others is anti-competitive. And barring them just to launch a clone of their product yourself is an anti-competitive super dick move.
What if I want to? I don't particularly care what the manufacturer thinks, I bought the machine. Why does Microsoft gets a pass to dictate what I can do with the hardware I bought?
See for example people that bought PS3s for operating distributed clusters (because at the time the console WAS open) and then Sony locked down other OSes with an update. Why is this fair?
https://www.itwriting.com/blog/2394-sony-locks-down-the-ps3-...
> I think the difference is that Apple wants people to buy these devices as your primary computing device.
How can a wristwatch be a primary computing device?
Oh it's not. But you don't have a choice. Last I checked Apple Watch required being locked into the walled garden [0] via ownership of an iPhone. Apple Watch is a feature, not a standalone product as it stands today.
Same case with XBox and PS. You can’t willy nilly write a game for either platform.
For some reason the unlicensed cartridge that always comes to mind for me is the powder blue Bible stories game.
These days if a company tried that Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft would just laugh and issue a firmware update "improving system stability" three weeks later bricking any unlicensed games in the process.
There was even a handful of unlicensed titles for PS2/GC.
Consoles are very different from Apple’s walled garden.
2. There isn't a horde of pitchforks because instead people's efforts with those consoles are focused towards jailbreaking them to run their arbitrary code instead of begging the company to do it - and Microsoft's Developer Mode on Xbox allows running of arbitrary code anyways, so the problems is basically solved there.
Nintendo, Sony, etc also allow other developers to sell apps on markets they created, and they also compete with those developers. If Nintendo ever removes a platforming game for competing with the Mario series, we should also raise our pitchforks and protest against unfair abuse of power.
Half Life was not a walled garden before opening up to modders, and was not a walled garden after. It was just a game opened to modders.
If we get over ourselves, and allow that there's new category of thing, devices made of mechanical and digital parts both, that the maker may or may not selectively open for mods as a legitimate part of their business model they're within their rights to choose, then we'd be less religiously militant in ways that harm innovation and consumers.
Then what are you engineering?
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Edit to elaborate:
I'm convinced this is the essence of the debate that has intensified as parts that move at the speed of light are devouring physical parts.
Switch, transistor, if statement -- a maker should be able to convert one type of part to another type of part without losing their rights, or accidentally triggering a "oh, look, general computing, therefore it's no longer up to you to decide!" flag of some sort.
Ease of reconfiguring electrons shouldn't change right to design and distribute a product with whatever blend of physical and digital one wants, facilitating whatever purpose one wants, and not being forced to facilitate other purposes.
That’s so last century. :-)
At least without the App Store reviewers crawling all over everything you do, putting an enormous level of scrutiny over everything you do. And the functionality has to justify it (not that it should operate without it, but with it has to validate why -- is it using some massive cloud resource to guess your next word, etc?)
That he ever got away with it was during confusion over keyboards on the watch where they weren't officially sanctioned and thus policed.
But otherwise he's engaged in building features for someone else's platform. Eventually those features get first party inclusion. This is the surest thing in this industry, and people comparing it to sherlock, etc -- ridiculous. Apple made a larger Apple watch so they decided it's time for a keyboard. That this guy is trying to claim some sort of moral/intellectual ownership over keyboards and/or swype typing is ridiculous, and it's the sort of overreach that is usually criticized viciously on HN.
And if Apple truly made an offer to "buy" his keyboard, it was certainly just to settle bad blood. The likely outcome would have been that they toss his solution and then do exactly what they did, which is build their own.
Completely wrong. I assume you saw some source online saying that network access was banned across the board for keyboard apps, maybe someone looked at the default restrictions and extrapolated from there. Easy mistake to make. Anyway, see below:
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> To be clear, Apple’s own developer guidelines specify that “full access” isn’t a problem: the only dispute here is whether the app continues to work if a user turns it off — which it does, says Eleftheriou, if you turn VoiceOver on. “They’d have to try it as a VoiceOver user, something that they don’t seem to bother doing. I’ve had several rejections in the past because the reviewer didn’t know anything about VoiceOver,” Eleftheriou says.[0]
And from Apple's (as far as I can tell, still current) developer documentation:
> By default, a keyboard has no network access and cannot share a container with its containing app. To enable these things, set the value of the RequestsOpenAccess Boolean key in the Info.plist file to YES. Doing this expands the keyboard’s sandbox, as described in Designing for User Trust.[1]
Which then goes on to extensively document how network access can be added to a keyboard utility. Pretty far away from a utility-wide ban.
[0]: https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/16/22627515/flicktype-ios-ke...
[1]: https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Ge...
This is 100% false. Both the apple keyboard and gboard from google require network access for gif, search support etc
To be honest, I'm quite happy about big companies revealing their ugly real face. And some people might benefit from such a reality-check.
Once all is said and done I suspect whatever apple has to pay will not meaningfully impact their profitability, and will be seen as a cost of doing business. This is a core reason these companies are so caustic. Penalties need to be harsh enough to make this behavior unprofitable. The board needs to be pissed at their executives.
Is this what being a hacker is now?
Knowing your project is going to get stomped out with uncompetitive practices from day 1,
still doing and carrying it all the the way through to court with a big player?
Apple also managed to cause lasting damage to HTC as a brand when they ventured into the US. I don't HTC ever recovered from that, although it might not have been the only problem they had.
[1] https://morningconsult.com/opinions/apple-v-samsung-scotus-s...
That is what drove me away. I assume this is still true, and my iOS devices will receive software updates for longer than Android devices.
Granted, most people would not be able to discern security updates and software updates or maybe even care about them nowadays, but back when the ecosystems and reputations were being established in early 2010s, Android vendors really dropped the ball. Everyone could see their relatives continuing to use iPhone 4 and iPhone 5 a couple more years and getting visibly updated for a couple more years than competing Androids (even from Google themselves!).
The resell value of iPhones was more as well, and I assume many or most people figured out that the probability of iOS devices outlasting competing Android devices was high.
"A gift he couldn't refuse", indeed.
> Newly-released emails reveal how Google hoped to pay $50 million for YouTube in 2006, and why it ended up paying $1.65 billion
> https://www.businessinsider.com/email-reveal-google-hoped-bu...
On the one hand, this is not pretty, on the other hand, this was happening, happens and will happen, so anyone starting business should think of this - that's one more risk to take into account. I think there was a good post on this by Joel Spolsky - if you create app that improves someone else product, the owner of the product soon or later will come after you.
Apple probably is not going to extend iOS with capabilities useful for plumbers, so one is safe building app for plumbers, however I would hesitate to build app for runners, as Apple is clearly looking on the health & sports sector.
I can image when acquisition happens, the keyboard team under software org will need to have some sort of requests to M&A(?) org, and then let them negotiate the details like price and make decisions. And app store review team is not involved in this discussion process.
For the M&A (I don’t know the actual name) org, IMO there is no incentive to block an app update due to a failed acquisition, they handle acquisitions every day and turned down offers are normal to them.
For the keyboard team, do they really want to block the app updates for a revenge? It’s possible but I think unlikely, they’re not competing with FlickType. Yes, they sherlocked the FlickType, but they don’t have the pressure to increase adoption because the native keyboard will have better experience (may not fair to developers if no API provided), and only available on watch 7.
Let’s say the keyboard team do want a revenge. Then some manager under keyboard team, which is a few levels down the tree of software org, needs to talk with another manager in app review team, which is also a few levels down of marketing org, for the blocking of updates for a specific app. Why would the manger of app review team accept such request? Imaging you’re that app store review manager, someone down the line of another org ask you to do something not only hurt the reputation of the company, but also yourself either externally or internally. Will you accept that request?
To be clear, this is my guess, and I don’t know what’s really going there, I could be wrong, and this is indeed a revenge. But my point is things may not connected as they look like.
Man, these Apple threads are always so full of open speculation.
Edit: I find it very interesting that after multiple downvotes, suddenly I'm getting downvotes on lots of older comments of mine also. Are folks just going into comment histories to go on a downvote rampage?
https://hitechglitz.com/the-creator-of-the-previous-highest-...
If Apple now bans the use of an alternative keyboard despite it not breaking the rules then that's the real issue: they'd be arbitrarily choosing when to apply or ignore the stated terms of use of the store. Reinstating the app later on once the damage is done is a small price to pay from Apple's perspective.
On the other hand if your product is actually just a feature for someone else's product you're always exposing yourself to a situation where the product developer just builds that feature in.
Think of other fields where you may offer an aftermarket solution like a car seat heating cover but the market evaporates the moment the manufacturer starts offering that as standard.
Well yeah, duh, they literally cannot compete. They were kicked off. The fact that you defend banning an app from the store as childish retribution for not taking a lowball offer is telling.
You have to remember that to companies like Apple everything is competition and financially related. Apple sells widgets based on product release cycles. Those cycles generally focus on features, whether those are hardware or software. Keep in mind that not everyone knows about FlickType. So in that case Apple may choose to release a FlickType clone as part of a new Apple Watch series, exclusive to that version and above. This helps sell more product for Apple. More new features that resonate with their buyers == more profit. Also you can't stand on the stage for 10 minutes and talk about a keyboard that your buyers go to the App store to get, now can you?
https://www.phonearena.com/news/flicktype-developer-files-su...
And the retroactive downvote sprees of other comments -- which I've also seen before, so don't even try to deny their existence -- are just beyond despicable. Shame, shame on anyone who is enough of an asshole to do shit like that.