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Comment by ghostwriter | Hacker News Reader

> Peevish attitude -- as if getting a vaccine is a deep personal choice.

Bodily integrity is a deep personal thing. “My body, my choice” isn’t it?

No more so than driving drunk.

You'll make this analogy, but if I remind you that banning driving would save lives, you'll tell me "car accidents aren't contagious!"

Your mind has been destroyed, and unfortunately there is no vaccine (remember, the definition can change).

>I remind you that banning driving would save lives

This is not remotely comparable, banning driving would (for most people) require changing entirely your lifestyle.

Getting a shot require a couple hours.

Banning driving would almost certainly cause more people to die for other reasons than those who currently die in automobile accidents.

What are you on about? Cars are actually a pretty good analogy.

Banning cars is equivalent to a full lockdown - useful temporarily if the issue is getting out of control, but despite working well, takes so much away from us that it's definitely not worth it long-term.

Banning drunk, unlicensed, etc. people from driving treats the issue more immediately without taking away ver much at all. Yes, drunkards won't get to drive, even if they're willing to risk it, so that's a negative effect for them, but society as a whole will gladly sacrifice that to protect everyone else (including them, even if they don't want it).

I am certainly confused. Do you think drunk driving on shared roads should be allowed or prohibited? I'm also not interesting in discussing whether anyone's "mind has been destroyed," but I am interesting in discussing whether specific ideas are good ideas or bad ideas.

Driving drunk doesn’t imply violating driver’s own bodily integrity against their choice. A drunk driver risks other people’s lives and it’s a punishable crime.

An unvaccinated person attending a public gathering risks other people's lives as well.

For some few exceptions. I am vaccinated and don't feel threatened by unvaccinated people at all. Yes, there are people with compromised immune systems, but I think it is on them to reduce the risk of exposure without having a mandate on vaccination.

It's not just about immunocompromised people. The fewer people are vaccinated the quicker we get rid of the virus. If don't do it quickly, we're slowly "marinading" the virus in the vaccine, increasing chances for a vaccine-resistant mutation. It's kind of like why you're not allowed to stop a course of antibiotics half-way through.

> The fewer people are vaccinated the quicker we get rid of the virus.

There is no evidence that the virus can be get ridden of.

Well, we have gotten rid of other viruses in the past and it also makes sense in theory given what we know about viruses, so the burden of proof is on those claiming we can't.

If a vaccinated person can transmit covid, doesn't the same issue exist?

Just like with drunk driving accidents, it is not binary.

It’s also impossible to establish that one particular person infected another particular person. Drunk driving accidents are precise on actors.

And not the same thing at all. It's dishonest to say:

> An unvaccinated person attending a public gathering risks other people's lives as well.

Because it implies there is no risk for the vaccinated to spread disease.

Are you saying it is dishonest to blame drunk driving because it implies there's no risk for the sober to hit people on the roads?

You seem to be arguing for the sake of it. I feel that my statement was pretty clear. If I am communicating poorly, I apologize, but there isn't much more I can add.

I am arguing for the sake of reason. Your statement was pretty clear, but based on a false assumption.

> Driving drunk doesn’t imply violating driver’s own bodily integrity against their choice.

I'm not sure what you mean. Police would use force to stop a drunk driver from driving drunk.

The prerequisites of the applied force in the case of drunk driving would be driver’s acts of volition to choose to get drunk and to choose to drive afterwards.

What are the prerequisites of the applied force in the case of staying unvaccinated? What are the acts of volition that justify the force?

The force would be used to prevent unvaccinated people from participating in certain activities (like attending public indoor gatherings). It’s very directly analogous to drunk driving.

Can people please stop using that chant? It's not relevant. It was never used for what you're using it for. It was an overly general chant used to push a very specific policy goal.

Bodily integrity isn't a blanket rule. You have it only insofar as it doesn't harm others. Abortion, HRT, plastic surgery... fall into that category. Willingly spreading a deadly disease despite an easy and safe-ish preventative option does not.

I think all your examples are wrong. I am for abortion, but the bodily integrity argument is just plainly bad because it relies on axioms that the child isn't a fully developed human.

I support abortion rights but hate this argument in particular, because bodily integrity of the child would be of interest as well.

HRT and plastic surgery are irrelevant here since they are voluntary choices.

The post I was replying to was using the "my body my choice" chant which as far as I know is almost exclusively used by the abortion right movement.

They were trying to apply it to vaccination, which isn't comparable to abortion for reasons I explained and therefore the chant had no place there.

I do agree that the framing of abortion as a bodily integrity issue is missing a lot of other aspects, which is why we got dumb things like the heartbeat laws. But it is the argument I hear most activists make.

HRT and plastic surgery are relevant because they're choices you should be allowed to make about your body because they don't harm others. Not getting vaxxed doesn't satify that criterion. It's not a perfect comparison since one is an action and the other is the lack of action, but it's still an issue of the government controlling what you do with your body, which I argue is acceptable if and only if it's something that harms others.

> Bodily integrity isn't a blanket rule. You have it only insofar as it doesn't harm others.

To move forward, you have to prove that one particular unvaccinated person harmed another particular person in the case of covid. Good luck with establishing this causation!

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