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nsxwolf

I believe we'd see more people choose to be vaccinated if we'd:

* Stop lying

* Stop threatening

* Stop mocking people when they die

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We're so far down the lying/threatening/mocking road that it's going to take years, maybe decades, to recover that trust -- and that's if we stopped now.

> Stop mocking people when they die

Yeah. That's not going to happen. The sentiment has turned against the unvaccinated dying from a preventable disease in a very big way.

You think not mocking people when they die will increase vaccination rates? I honestly don't really know, but I'm skeptical.

Adding social pressure to vaccinate is useful I think tho. We will see what happens with these new mandates.

>You think not mocking people when they die will increase vaccination rates? I honestly don't really know, but I'm skeptical.

Sure, say you had a parent or close family member die, then someone mocked that. How would you feel about that person? Would you listen to anything they had to say, or just want to punch them in the face?

>Adding social pressure to vaccinate is useful I think tho.

I don't know the answer, but shaming people and mocking them hasn't worked in the last 20 years; in fact it's made us even more partisan, divided and hateful towards each other. Why do you think it would work now?

> Would you listen to anything they had to say, or just want to punch them in the face?

They're not listening now. We've passed the point where persuadable people in good faith are holding out (for what? The full FDA approval was two weeks ago.) It's time to go the other way and mandate the vaccine -or- frequent testing (I think 1/week is too infrequent) -or- they can preemptively isolate themselves from society.

So you are making a common mistake, you are considering a huge swath of people from a wide range of demographics and political persuasions as a single cognitive entity. They are not. Let's say you don't shame, you get an additional 15% uptake. Let's say you do shame, you only get 5%. Shaming is part of the problem for reasons I stated above. It certainly makes the people shaming feel better about themselves, but it's a net negative to the outcome of which those people are purporting solve.

Bottom line, shitting on people is never effective.

No, my question was actually about whether persuadable people still exist. People for whom politeness and reason will work. Because I think those people have gotten the vaccine. Do you think that subpopulation exists, what motivates them and what will make them change their mind?

Because you seem to think shaming is about me feeling better at a huge cost: "you get an additional 15% uptake. Let's say you do shame, you only get 5%." I just don't think those numbers are at all accurate. I don't even think that the causation "shaming -> less vaccination" is true.

>I don't even think that the causation "shaming -> less vaccination" is true.

You don't understand human nature or yourself. Shame on you. Did that make you change your mind? Didn't think so.

I'm sure persuadable people exist, just what percent, I don't know. There are millions unvaccinated in the US and it will change over time. Many people are taking the "wait and see approach." If you don't understand why, see the Tuskegee Experiment. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study) All I know is shaming will have the opposite effect, assuming the intention is to get people to vaccinate. Shaming people is a very selfish and self centered action. The news does it all the time so you get that little hit of dopamine to watch more. Fat shaming is counter productive, lazy shaming counter productive, poor shaming counter productive, homeless shaming counter productive. Drug shaming is counter productive. Why on earth do you think it would it work now?

Do you have any data to show that laughing at anti-vaxxers dying of COVID decreases the amount of people willing to get vaccinated? Common sense suggests to me that it's the other way around.

Given the vaccines don't prevent transmission, why is it so important to you that the unvaccinated acquiesce or isolate?

Vaccines help prevent transmission. They are not 100% effective - the effectiveness depends on the vaccine and variant and study but quite high. That's a long way of saying that they "don't prevent transmission"

In the UK's vaccine surveillance report released today it showed the rate of infection in vaccinated individuals ages 40-79 was significantly higher than unvaccinated.

Edit: Link to report (pdf warning) https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

The same report says that early results indicate that a single dose of the mRNA vaccines provides a 35-50% reduction in transmissions. Given that the second shot dramatically improves the results, we can assume that number will improve. Those are fuzzy numbers whoever, as it is difficult to measure. The prevention of infections is 55-70%

Nobody authoritative ever said they prevented transmission. Ever. They reduce transmission.

Even if you choose to ignore that, consider: Vaccinated people have shorter recovery times and are less likely to require hospitalization.

That results in a shorter time window for spreading the virus. Furthermore, if you can recover at home you are less likely to spread it to health care workers or other patients.

If you’re going to force the vaccine if persuasion fails then why bother with persuasion?

I'd rather persuade - it's better long term if people get the shot voluntarily. We've just hit a point where it seems more more persuasion is possible.

Or am I wrong? What could possibly persuade the current holdouts?

The news needs to show more videos of sick people and bodies stacking in freezers. That will do it for most. They're incentivized to draw it out though. They would love 3 years of COVID, at least profit wise.

Why have we consistently seen thousands and thousands of new vaccinations daily if no one ever changes their minds?

People have already largely made up their minds, and nothing is going to change them. This is fully a political-religious divide now, and you can't reason people out of a decision they didn't reason themselves into. The ones who pretend they are on the fence and their minds can be changed by some goal being hit or some facts changing, always seem to move the goal posts instead of actually changing their minds.

In areas where the vaccines are free and widely/immediately available, for someone who has not gotten it already, I can't think of anything that would convince them to get it other than tightened restrictions (employers requiring, etc.) and enforcement. I'd love to hear otherwise from someone who is legitimately on the fence, because I don't think those people really exist.

> People have already largely made up their minds, and nothing is going to change them.

In that case, it doesn't matter what we do. The lies and threats and mocking can continue, and it doesn't matter either way.

So since it doesn't matter, we should just figure out a protocol for a "CDC post-infection immunity card", issue it to people whose antibody levels have been tested and judged to be sufficient, and then bar everyone without a vax or immunity card from any kind of indoor gathering (including for employment)[0].

I'm just sick of all this. For a while I was sympathetic toward the vaccine-hesitant -- some of the reasoning, while misinformed, was understandable -- but my patience is gone. The longer this goes on, the greater the risk of a new variant that the vaccines don't protect us against.

[0] Yes, the usual exceptions apply for people who can't be vaccinated for a legitimate medical reason, but they should be subject to weekly or biweekly testing.

It's easier to just get vaccinated than to test for antibodies.

> People have already largely made up their minds, and nothing is going to change them. This is fully a political-religious divide now, and you can't reason people out of a decision they didn't reason themselves into. The ones who pretend they are on the fence and their minds can be changed by some goal being hit or some facts changing, always seem to move the goal posts instead of actually changing their minds.

Despite the anecdote that the first person I know getting vaccinated experienced a life-threatening case of severe anaphylaxis with the first dose, I thought getting the vaccine made some sense. I caught a bug around March/April of 2020 that had very similar symptoms to COVID, kind of like a sore throat with a flu, but I never got tested to see if it was just a bug or Covid that I got. Actually decided I was going to get the J&J vaccine after weighing pros & cons. I know that I am at a very low risk with no comorbidities, but my logic was that despite my low risk, the main benefit would be that it would minimize symptoms if I actually did catch it.

I started talking with the Dr. in the family to decide where/when. This was when the pause on the J&J came out, and I realized continuing my masking, social distancing, and other isolating activities were the best path. That, by delaying, the science would be better known, more vaccines would be used, and information about which vaccines were safest would come out. I felt that some of the politicization issues around what to do seemed to be frankly strange, if not outright authoritarian propaganda on one side, and wacky hodgepodge on the other.

The more I read on it, the more I became concerned because data on spike protein pathogenicity came out [1]. This called into question the big 3 vaccine approaches long term safety in my mind, because if the vaccines cause your body to produce a huge amount of spike protein, well, that on its own is allegedly toxic. Additionally, I have been hoping for the Novavax vaccine to come out, which appears to be safer and more efficacious, but that appears to be a long waiting game.

I continue to isolate, wear an N95, and socially distance.

[1] https://www.salk.edu/news-release/the-novel-coronavirus-spik...

people dying in the streets might.

Is it ok to mock people who die from AIDS now?

(this is intended as sarcasm to point out the morality of mocking people who die from a preventable disease)

Mocking deaths came about people antivax people have been actively lying (take animal meds and herbal supplements to be immune) and threatening (just look at the endless mounds of videos of people screaming about it being the end of the world because they have to wear a mask, and governors threatening schools that require masks) while mocking people who get vaccinated because "haha you're all going to die from the vax! Just give it two weeks and I'll be right!"

Everyone got fed up with those people and the gaslighting they've attempted.

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