Apple Won a Battle to Lose the War
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I don't subscribe to a lot of services, but I find that eg. subscribing and unsubscribing from Netflix is a much nicer experience than subscribing from something that uses Apple's service.
With Netflix, I know exactly where to subscribe and where to unsubscribe, and the terms are pretty clear.
Apple on the other hand makes it surprisingly hard to show your active subscriptions. On the Mac, I think you have to open the Music app and click on a bunch of links that I keep forgetting. Kinda weird when Apple is supposedly known for their ease of use.
It's also often unclear how it works. In one app I clicked "start 14 day trial", but ended up being charged for an annual subscription immediately. At first I was surprised, but then I thought maybe it was because I had apparently started the trial already a few years ago already. The buttons I tapped did not make that clear.
And some basic things are impossible with Apple's solution: Eg. charge the Apple Music subscription to a different bank account. Nope, with Apple all your subscriptions go to a single credit card.
Apple payments don't even need to be the best, they just need to be good enough since they are already the default and integrated with your phone.
I cancelled it after one of the price hikes and a round of it suggesting nothing I wanted to watch, only to have it seemingly re-subscribe on it's own.
After a couple of rounds of that, I discovered that any TV still logged in could browse, pick a show, and would get a prompt to "continue membership" or something like that.
It was designed in such a way that the family was instinctively clicking through the message, not knowing what it was.
Anyway, forcing all sessions to sign out before the next cancellation did the trick.
The worst offenders in recent history were bloomberg (where i had to open a support case to cancel) and some other news publication. FT was the best experience in news publications. More and more services seem to be getting better in this.
You click unsubscribe and are taken to new screen that presents you pricing plans and is worded in such way that you think you already unsubscribed. I actually thought so and almost thought that I'm done. But no, decided to check and saw that I'm still subscribed.
Turned out, there are THREE consecutive screens where you need to successfully pick the correct option to really unsubscribe.
Just a few examples: Xbox Live, you can sign up online but to cancel you have to call them and justify to them why you don't want to use their service anymore. Also had to do that to cancel a credit card recently. I've heard its even worse with companies like Adobe or like you mentioned, news publications.
As a customer, because of our bad consumer protection laws it makes me very hesitant to start a subscription with a new company and I vastly prefer doing it through Apple if I can.
With Apple, it's easy to see when you have a subscription active and to stop it from auto renewing. If cancel flows are getting easier it's probably due to pressure from this existing.
It's pleasant as a consumer that at least one company operates this way, but it's terrible that most people don't even consider that our government should be the one doing this, not private companies.
2. I subscribed to Netflix because they had a reputation of being easy to subscribe / unsubscribe. I'm not going to subscribe to the New York Times because I've heard how hard they are to cancel. I have a subscription to a local newspaper, they even had ads mentioning how easy it is to start / stop their subscription.
Not sure what the OP is talking about with the Apple system. There is a Subscriptions section in your Apple ID.
But I like going through Apple because it’s all in one place and the content provider has no chance to try and dark patterns on me. Even if the Apple subscriptions is a slightly worse experience, if I can get all my subscriptions in one place and have the ability to cancel at will I’m going to chose that.
I can’t imagine what kind of minor benefit I’d get from using multiple cards and different subscriptions that would make it worth more than easy management.
I have a personal bank account, a business bank account for all business expenses, and a bank account shared with my significant other for household expenses.
I want to pay our shared Netflix and Spotify accounts from the family account, apps that I buy for business use on my business account, and things I buy for myself on my personal account.
I can't be the only person who has multiple bank accounts?
If it was easy for me to unsubscribe, I'm not going to worry much about re-subscribing later. If you put me through an hour of faffing about in the hopes I give up then why would I ever come back.
Beyond that, if someone's choosing between one of e.g. Netflix, Amazon Prime Video or Disney+, I imagine that it could make a difference.
On the other hand if I can just go "click" on website and the site goes "ok, your subscription ends at the end of this month". I'll most likely come back if there is some content I want to get to.
There is also people that might be put off if the process is notorious for being unfriendly or cumbersome
How much this affects subscriber numbers is a different story altogether.
The question is, if Netflix is "best in class" and makes users happy, why isn't Apple on that level. There really isn't any excuse.
Apple unsubscribe is pretty darn solid. Phone > Subscriptions > toggle to off.
Dear auto renewal app, get stuffed.
I use this feature often, and it’s excellent.
> I don't subscribe to a lot of services, but I find that eg. subscribing and unsubscribing from Netflix is a much nicer experience than subscribing from something that uses Apple's service.
Wtf. How easy does it have to be?
Come on, let’s be specific here instead of vague hand waving.
What exactly is this great unsubscribe service from Netflix that is better than a three step toggle?
Settings > subscriptions > Name > alter or cancel.
>> Come on, let’s be specific here instead of vague hand waving.
> But you're welcome to kma
Well, that about sums up the thoughtful discussion of people saying how bad Apple pay is right there.
> On the Mac, I think you have to open the Music app and click on a bunch of links
Maybe there's a route like that, but at least today it's always under Apple ID management, and I find that quite logical.
On macOS it's under System Preferences -> Apple ID -> Media and Purchases -> Subscriptions: [Manage...] button. Don't have a phone at hand but it's very similar on iOS, somewhere under Settings -> Apple ID. I forgot the exact location but it's with some fairly obvious name, like "Purchases" or "Subscriptions", very hard to miss it.
Naturally, it requires learning where it is for the first time, but then it's fairly intuitive.
> In one app I clicked "start 14 day trial", but ended up being charged for an annual subscription immediately.
Hm. That's odd. Apps could be pretty deceptive and even outright scummy, but at least on iOS the system payment UI (the one where you have to double-tap the power button) was always very clear about how much and when exactly it would charge me.
I'm talking about my personal experience with Apple subscriptions. Maybe I am remembering something inaccurately, but that doesn't really matter. The only thing that matters is that I prefer other companies payment systems, and I really don't like that Apple tries to force their service that I don't want on me.
> On macOS it's under System Preferences -> Apple ID -> Media and Purchases -> Subscriptions: [Manage...] button.
I just tried that, and it didn't work. Just showed a spinner for a minute, and then opened the App Store home screen. Everything related to Apple ID is slow and unreliable for me, I don't know why they don't just have a simple web interface like every other company. (On a second attempt it worked.)
> Hm. That's odd. Apps could be pretty deceptive and even outright scummy, but at least on iOS the system payment UI (the one where you have to double-tap the power button) was always very clear about how much and when exactly it would charge me.
The system UI was accurate. The button before was not. For some reason I thought that the system UI showed the price AFTER the trial, so I confirmed the payment, thinking I could still cancel it for two weeks.
I guess what people like about Apple's IAP subscriptions is that while you might know this for Netflix, do you know it for every other subscription you might sign up for?
- Change your country/region
- Be forced to add a new credit card, regardless of how many times you've done this before
- Attempt to load your subscriptions, and receive a "Cannot Connect" error no matter how many times you try
- Restart your phone because its the only thing that seems to resolve this
- Successfully manage your subscriptions now that they will load
- Repeat the entire process again to get back to your original locale
This...could be easier.
I think the simpler workaround is to have multiple Apple ID/accounts, one for each country and linked to specific payment options. It still requires signing out and signing in, but it avoids restrictions (IIRC, something like 90 days) and the need to re-update payment information as with the other approach you mentioned. The subscriptions may not work when you're not signed in to the account associated with its country, but this is simpler than following many more steps.
I find it silly that Apple does not even consider switching between two countries as a use case that would apply for quite a number of people (it may be less in percentage terms, but surely a large enough number in absolute terms).
This is obviously not the mainline use case, but to suggest that "no one" does this simply because you do not is obviously naive.
I haven't heard of this. Is it a supported case by Apple?
“Let’s try the settings app” “Ok at the top I’ve got my name and it says, ‘Apple ID, iCloud, Media & Purchases’ “Hmm purchases, let’s click that” “Ok a list of options, fourth says ‘Subscriptions’ let’s try it” “Oh hey here’s my apple one subscription, not so bad!”
Overall that seemed pretty sensible. Perhaps if they added ‘and subscriptions’ to your card at the top it’d be a bit clearer but it’s certainly not some horrible experience.
I find that to be a great user experience personally.
I'm really rooting for Epic here, but people can like a thing without being apologists. That word isn't helping the debate.
It's a 43% tax.
You will need a 42.9% markup to counteract the 30% cut.
And Apple knows it which is why they're fighting it tooth and nail.
It’s great for consumers. It isn’t great for companies developing apps.
Not much. While I defend the App Store monopoly, I see no reason for Apple to have a monopoly on in-app payments. I think it's atrocious that they aim to take a cut out of every subscription payment (versus, e.g., an up-front commission).
Was just pushing back on the claim that what's best for consumers would win in a payments free-for-all where app-developing companies (note: not necessarily developers) choose the payment provider.
That's fair, and FWIW I agree.
Competition does bring prices down we have much proof.
Yea too bad most companies don't work like Netflix. Using dark patterns is extremely common in subscription services. Apple makes dark patterns impossible.
Happened just last week when I rented a movie via Apple TV. The description was in my native language and I just clicked. Gathered the family around and saw that there was no audio or subtitles in my language.
I'm not so sure if I can do the same with Honest Bob's Movie Rental App, which has their own payment system.
Will they respect my Parental Control settings about no purchases too? Will they integrate with the "ask to buy" -setting built in to iOS?
If they didn't, that would presumably be noted in user reviews and media comparisons, so they'd get lower ratings and people would know to avoid them. Or take that downside, if they see some other upside to the particular service that they feel compensates for the downside.
You know, like a market-based economy -- "capitalism" -- is supposed to work.
I couldn’t cancel subscription from App, Netflix asks me to go to a URL to cancel.
When Netflix increased the price, the pop up in App forced you to select one of the increased priced plan, there was no button where you could just back out of pop up to decide later or wait till end of billing month. The two buttons were also confusing, I don’t recall exact words those button used now, but I was shocked when I selected one I thought let’s me wait, I received email confirming my acceptance to price increase. Being ex PM, I am pretty confident it had to do with KPI around price increase for executives and street.
I will take Apple subscription and payment system over Netflix’s any day and 100 times over. All subscription are tied to your Apple ID and display under your Apple ID.
Netflix only has subscriptions. They think about them a lot.
The hubris of Apple is such that they think they can change the businesses of everyone around them. They want all businesses to wear turtlenecks, pay their 30%, and stop complaining about individual business needs.
Imagine how hostile it must be to also have the giant telling you how to do your subscriptions turn around and launch their own movie and tv streaming service!
Bruh. Are you actually serious?
Settings → Apple ID / iCloud → Subscriptions
or
App Store → Your Account → Subscriptions
Such sUrPrIsInG, much hArD. In any case, if you feel that’s difficult now imagine how insurmountably Herculean it will become for you if you had to navigate the UX of multiple payment providers.
> There are a lot of Apple apologists who claim Apple's payment system is superior for the customer, but that just doesn't match my experience.
Apple has always immediately refunded me for shitty apps and scummy services, without question.
Meanwhile apps that provide their own payment systems, like Couchsurfing (who bait-and-switched users even after charging them a $100 “forever fee”), have yet to even reply to my requests for a refund.
Apple also lets me see all my recurring subscriptions from one place, warns me before renewals, and amazingly, lets me keep access to services for a few days even if I can’t make a payment on the renewal date.
So yeah. If you think predators like Epic and Match/Tinder and the countless microtransaction games (with their placebo IAPs and gambling boxes that do literally nothing at all sometimes) will be as accommodating, oh boy.
But of course user-hostile devs would root for nothing more than to tear down the walls protecting users.
The same option is also available in the App Store app as well. Where else exactly would you prefer it to be?
Politicians love to have easy targets as it deflects from their own failings. As the largest US company, Apple is the juiciest of low-hanging fruit already for their financial and tax arrangements, the last thing they need is to become antitrust public enemy No 1 as well.
Nobody outside of tech cares very much about these issue. You can build your re-election campaign on "I stopped the big bad chemcorp from poisoning our children/I stopped the big bad environmentalists from killing jobs". You can't build a re-election campaign on beating up a target your constituents don't care either way about.
Nobody except Apple’s legions of fans and loyal customers. Only the predatory companies who salivate about exploiting those users are so eager for any chance to cut down the tall poppy.
OT: Where can you see this kind of data?
> And, as the injunction reveals, the vast majority of App Store billings come from gaming. Games account for approximately 70 percent of the entire App Store’s revenue, and 98 percent of in-app purchase revenue. The App Store is a game store, and more specifically, it’s a game store for massive, free-to-play games that make nearly all of their money from in-app items.
Source: https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/10/22667047/apple-epic-rulin...
Oh… It's the kind of games I never download if I see smattering of gems/crowns/coins in the IAP's.
If there are other stores, antitrust no longer applies and Apple can feature whoever they want on their store front.
They are so used to being heroes and underdogs that it will be a major shock when they finally realize that people want to see them bleed over this. (Yes, I'm an Apple customer, I love some of their products.)
Same goes for Google and soon Microsoft (again).
There is a limit to how far one can abuse customers and developers and still be seen as the good guys
The StoreKit (1.0) piece is easily the worst thing I’ve had to deal with in building the whole app. But I’d still rather do this than try to build the whole payment infrastructure on my own.
Here’s to hoping the new API they announced this year will be much nicer.
I think Apple wants avoid a Trivalgo or Booking.com situation were people search for hotels but book a room directly on the hotel's own website for less.
Nothing less will make a dent.
Independent and "small" developers - even many large developers have zero chance fighting the injustices of the tech giants.
Apple is now forced to allow other payment processors into their ecosystem. But there is nothing in that ruling that says Apple can't make guidelines on payment processors and that Apple can't enforce them.
You had better believe that Apple is going to make a bunch of "consumer friendly" rules about transparency, data privacy, refunds, subscription cancellations, etc. And they are going to enforce them with no mercy, because the judge said that it is legal.
Also, don't be surprised if the "Free with in-app purchase" apps now have to pay Apple for bandwidth at whatever the prevailing AWS/Azure egress charges are. But that will be waived for using the Apple payment processor.
But I feel like these IT monopolies won't hold for more than 30-50 years.
* there's no way to get itemized billing without an Apple device.
* credit card charge descriptions are completely useless
* no "hey your X subscription is about to renew" notifications, 100% a dark pattern
* only one payment method allowed, even in a family account (also, whole family ecosystem is underbaked, but this is true for just about every major company ... a real potential moat)
* just extremely poor support over all, linkrot in their community posts about billing, billing inquiries on a PC go to reportaproblem.apple.com and suppory ticket style interface ..
I could go on, it definitely feels more like malice than incompetence - a form of cheery neglect.
I'm not sure what you mean here, I absolutely get emails from Apple notifying me of subscription confirmations, renewal confirmations and expiration/cancelation confirmations.
Two points:
- "the judge’s order to stop App Store anti-steering is a big one"
- "bad vibes yielding bad blood within Apple’s own developer community"
Rest is just filler.
I can't see what people are downvoting on this comment.
Basically, you cannot read that article without any bias on this topic and expect to have learned something new. Maybe if I followed all the links in it, that might explain the situation - but the links are:
- a series of tubes
- [the next battle of] Apple v. Epic.
- just maybe
- they need to say
- given the Japanese settlement
- continues
- real reforms to the App Store
- they’re a lot smarter
... etc. There is absolutely no context to this non-article, and no hints where to go to get the context.
Sorry. I usually try not to rant about the content that people put on the internet, but please HN community - you're usually much better at filtering the bull than this.
Crippling that is crippling their own bottom line and they know that all too well.
Apple will lose all incentive to makes sure their products last since their profit will come from selling new phones only - just like Android phone makers; right now Apple would rather you keep using an old iPhone and continue to give them money via the App Store than risk you switching to another brand and losing all revenue from you.
I quite like my phones lasting a long time - also more electronic waste isn’t good for anyone.
Frankly, I hope that they will decide to take the cut to their revenue and continue to operate the store at a lower profit, maybe even reducing the „tax“ to 10% across the board. This will be a hit to the shareholders, but who cares (I say it as a shareholder) at it will ensure that the ecosystem stays healthy. Apple should take this as an opportunity to improve the App Store instead of resting on their laurels. Also, I think the growth of the Mac business will more than offset the loss of the App Store revenue.
But then I read that in the US teens are practically bullied into suicide for not owning an iPhone so maybe it's not that simple? Apple never appealed to me in the slightest and there isn't an iMessage cult in Europe.
It is not free to switch. I am not on Apple phones but I own a PlayStation, if/when Sony screws me over I can't move my swap my fingers and my PS4 transforms into an XBOX and my games are transferred. To switch over you need to sell your old device, buy a new one, then buy again most of the applications/games. If you have some cloud integration you will probably have to sort that out too, cancel subscriptions, move/backup your data etc.
On a different topic I think that if I pay the full price on a console then I own it and I should have the right to unlock it, they can ban me from multiplayer games if they can't trust the OS but I should have an unlock code.
As for the imessage issue, I don't think its as bad as suicide, but I too was absolutely shocked about how serious that was. I always knew about it as a joke but I thought it was just that. Even stranger, I've spoke to people with this attitude, and none of them were aware of the advantages (which there certainly are) of an imessage only chat. Its purely about the bubbles and their colour. Absolutely mad