The Buffett Indicator
currentmarketvaluation.com
currentmarketvaluation.com
As Keynes famously said: "The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."
An indicator that does a pretty good job of signaling the "when" of a recession, and by extension the likely "when" of large market corrections, is yield curve inversion. It predicted the recession of early 2020 quite well, even with the external shock of the pandemic.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/leonlabrecque/2020/02/26/anothe...
From the perspective that somehow a reset of the business cycle has happened through government transfers (not exactly a sound assumption), watch interest rates, and in particular the relationship between the 2 and 10 year.
Should we start to see a rise in short-term rates, without a similar rise in long rates, watch out. You'll no doubt see a multitude of articles explaining how "this time is different." It won't be. And on top of all of that, we'll head into it with the most overvalued market in history.
You can even see it on the chart in the linked article, in 2005/06 — that time, it was different.
A biased coinflip that gives 5 signals would be 5/0.
No one knows exactly why this is.
Let's cut to the chase and make a bot that posts "9 out of the last 5 recessions, hyuk!" on every post remotely related to finance and be done with it. It is the furthest thing from a substantive comment; it is a recycled low-effort joke in the style of reddit.
(I’ve never heard of the expression before so I found it amusing)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20372163
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19995167
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22352073
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2127845
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21023682
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14417296
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20641031
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17266452
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9476984
I'm curious how this stacks up to the accuracy of other prediction methods? Off the cuff, this one doesn't seem too bad. esp given the stochastic nature of the variable being predicted.
Neither politicians, nor your investment advisor, use such a scoped time horizon.
Even if you know the next ten years will be in the bottom decile of returns for the S&P 500, you’re still better off than with cash.
"the bottom decile of returns for the S&P 500" I guess we have not yet seen what that means. The next ten years might show negative yearly returns.
"Suppose I offer you a security that will pay $100 two days from today. You can buy as much of it as you like today at $50, or you can wait until tomorrow. Tomorrow, I’ll flip a coin. If it’s heads, I’ll sell you the security at $99. If it’s tails, I’ll sell you the security at $25. What should you do?
Clearly, if you buy the security today, you’ll double your money two days from now. That’s a 100% expected return for each dollar you invest, over that 2-day period. If you wait, you’ll earn nothing on the first day, but you’ll then have two possibilities. If heads, you’ll get just 1% on your invested money. If tails, you’ll get a 300% return, quadrupling your money. With a 50/50 chance at each, your expected return for every dollar you invest is 0.51% + 0.5300% = 150.5%. So waiting adds 50.5% to your expected return over that 2-day period."
Buffett has been sitting on piles of cash in the past for years and years, avoiding buying securities when they are overvalued. He never tried timing the market, simply waiting for the right moment. Nor did he sell stocks when they were overvalued in order to try to buy them back at a lower cost at least AFAIK from reading his biographies. So, for a value investor, it's a useful tool.
It’s not quite clear what you’re trying to say here, because if you popped into a newbie investment forum and said you were sitting on a pile of cash that you were avoiding investing because the market was overvalued, you’d be told that is the literal classic “trying to time the market” move.
Buffett obviously is a sophisticated investor who knows what he’s doing but if your description is right this is absolutely still him timing the market. Timing the market isn’t just when you try to pick the day that’s lowest, it’s still timing the market if you are picking the month or year that is lowest.
The problem with the plan is that holding piles of cash is a game for losers; you need the money to be in some sort of asset - it matters not what - to avoid the printers of the central banks. There is a real chance that stock prices never come down as much as everything else goes up.
But never get scared from investing when stocks are too high - this strategy works one way because you should always be long the market.
Any difference in valuation you come up with compared to the market cap would simply mean that there's something missing in your calculations that makes up the difference, as the stock and its market cap is coming from thousands of times more complicated methods for valuing the stock than whatever few metrics you were able to consider.
Essentially by using some sort of method to value a stock, you can only fool yourself to think that you know what you are doing and are skilled beyond luck. Because you are competing against institutions with state of the art tools, researchers and experience.
Not necessarily, can also mean that your circumstances are different from the large traders. Value is relative to your net worth, status RE the tax system, risk tolerance and current allocation. So it is not only possible but likely that the large traders have a valuation that is correct for them and wrong for you as a small market participant.
Besides, if all assets are - in some sense - equal then any inane strategy that involves buying assets is equivalent to any other and just dumping all the cash into any basket of assets is workable. So people could probably buy just assets they like and expect an equivalent return to everyone else. If that logic holds.
That's pretty much true. Although risk and volatility does differ from asset to asset. So as a lone investor you can decide how much you are willing to risk to get better returns.
trying to pick the stocks that are least overvalued is great and everyone should be doing it all the time. (assuming you are investing in individual stocks and not index funds)
the problem comes when you say "everything is overvalued so i'll sit in cash until the market is less overvalued" and yes that's timing the market.
> The problem with the plan is that holding piles of cash is a game for losers; you need the money to be in some sort of asset - it matters not what - to avoid the printers of the central banks. There is a real chance that stock prices never come down as much as everything else goes up.
yes, you've identified the central problem with timing the market, this is precisely why it's a bad idea in general.
As others are saying: if you accept the efficient market hypothesis then your guesses are inherently no better than random chance, unless you somehow have unique insight that nobody else in the market has. Otherwise if you've successfully identified a trading strategy that worked, it would be exploited until there was no longer any value there, and the market returns to "no better than random chance".
(there's the old joke: an economist and his friend are walking down the sidewalk. The friend spots a bill laying on the ground and says "look, a hundred dollar bill!" and bends down to pick it up. But the economist keeps walking, saying "of course it can't be, if it was then somebody would have picked it up already." It's a meme but in a macro sense it's true, there are small pockets of alpha that can be exploited on a small scale but in the macro sense the market is as efficient as it can be and everybody else is just as aware as you that "the market seems overvalued right now" too.)
Therefore the best strategy is to dollar-cost-average across some span of time and accept that you may have missed a percent here or there but that the market is generally going up by more than you missed - and that you also may have timed it poorly and cost yourself a percent or two as well.
Valuing an asset and then not buying when it is expensive is a completely different activity. It involves no prediction on how long it will be before the price corrects relative to value.
Any simple metrics, or indicators you can think of are already priced in by algorithms so the only possibility to gain an edge would be to have some very specific niche knowledge or inside information, or you must have even better algorithm that considers more variables.
Any success not stemming from those things can't really be attributed to anything else than luck.
I'd argue, Buffet even if young, couldn't do the same today, that he did in the past.
If there's a successful pattern discovered it will be used until there won't be any more profits available from being able to read this pattern. And these patterns get more and more complicated as time goes on, for an hobbyist investor there's absolutely no way, to do some technical analysis and find a profitable idea.
That's the same thing. Whether you are staying out or buying in, both are trying to time markets. Avoiding doing something is also an action.
In fact historically by staying out because you think something is overvalued has been shown to be outperformed by constantly putting in to the market whatever you can.
1) Philosophical Economics' stock/bond/cash preference model:
http://www.philosophicaleconomics.com/2013/12/the-single-gre...
https://financial-charts.effingapp.com/
2) John Hussmann's non-financial market cap to gross value added:
https://www.hussmanfunds.com/category/comment/
https://www.hussmanfunds.com/comment/mc210715/
But as the sibling comment and all the sources above say, those do not predict the path, only the destination (which is a decade or more in the future). It would be completely consistent with such macro valuation models if, for example, the general prices doubled or even quadrupled over the next year or two, why not. Stay safe out there :)
Breaking the concept of money as value in time (and that is what the ineterest rate means, because value now is better than value later) has broken all the basics of economics and finance. And is totally distorting.
It is a huge shame which central bankers somehow will have to pay for.
Edit: just to explain. "Value now" is better than "value later" or otherwise actions are generally worthless, which is a somewhat negative philosophical foundation for "Economy" which comes from "household management"...
You surely mean that central bankers will have to pay nothing, and poor people will pay.
"Greenspan - I was wrong about the economy. Sort of"
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2008/oct/24/economics-c...
"‘I made a mistake,’ admits Greenspan"
https://www.ft.com/content/aee9e3a2-a11f-11dd-82fd-000077b07...
"Greenspan: I was wrong about the economy"
"Greenspan Says I Still Dont Fully Understand What Happened"
"Alan Greenspan, ''Savant Idiot''"
https://www.forbes.com/2008/10/24/alan-greenspan-idiot-oped-...
"Powell’s Homage to Greenspan Hints at a Fed Flashback" https://archive.is/Fk5Ou#selection-2695.0-2695.53
"Jerome Powell Channels Alan Greenspan in Putting Stamp on Fed" https://archive.is/R90mw#selection-3027.0-3027.61
"Fed Chairman Jerome Powell makes no secret of his admiration for Alan Greenspan—and now his actions looks a lot like his predecessor's" https://twitter.com/business/status/1303641312693039105
* Companies like BABA or SE that contribute little to US GDP.
* Tech giants shift profits to low-tax countries.
* Income from US only makes part of global giants' income.
(I know almost nothing about economy so this is novice question, instead of a statement against the effectiveness of Buffett indicator.)
No guarantees. Even if a significant crash in the future happens, there's no guarantee it would even remotely reach the level we are at now.
I'm not saying "this time it's different", I'm saying it's always possible that "this time it's different".
GDP plummets -> interest rates are dropped -> GDP recovers -> interest rates are raised
You're balancing between responsiveness, accuracy, and reliability: pick two.
I'd have thought the last few crises would have taught us that we should be thinking about the system more in terms of stability, or lack thereof.
The housing crisis could have not exploded, if key institutions and/or investors had acted differently. But it was objectively true that the entire system was in a very unstable state.
Can you explain the difference between accuracy and reliability in this context?
The very existence of business cycles suggests that the economy has "underdamped poles", and perhaps a more forward-looking central bank policy could add enough phase margin to damp them and prevent recessions altogether. But it would require always taking one's foot off the gas pedal before conditions really seem good enough.
ratio of total US stock market value to US GDPHistorically stocks perform poorly in times of high inflation.
The money supply has been increasing for already some time, but only now we are seeing inflation catching up for example on consumer prices.
For money supply to show in consumer/business side of GDP, money created by central bank need to be distributed. When interest rates have been low, maybe banks were hesitant to start pushing money to individuals and businesses and it instead ended up in stock market.
* There has been massive asset inflation.
* The market is in a speculative bubble.
* The 500 largest American companies really are ~4 times more valuable than they were 10 years ago.
Even with #3, the best case scenario, that alone should be setting off major alarm bells, because their material contribution to society hasn't increased fourfold, so that increased valuation must be coming from somewhere, that is to say, control over society more generally.
If their contribution to the top 1% increased 400-fold, does that balance out?
> that alone should be setting off major alarm bells
No I don't think that balances out unless you think the 1% is much more important than the rest of society.
(I have said this above, though): if money today is worth less than money tomorrow, you want to get rid of it as fast as you can. People want to "save", anyway. This implies that the only way to save money is to invest it in risky assets. There is no point in buying bonds as investment for the general investor (only for hedging) if they will be worth less tomorrow than today -you are burning money, literally.
Does this not look very much like inflation? (i.e. if you do not spend your money _right now_ you may not be able to buy anything tomorrow)..... It is inflation but Central Bankers do not want to see it.
And just like at that time people are looking for adjusted valuation measures and all type of excuses to justify unrealistic growth expectations.
Like ALL previous bubbles it will end in tears.
Apple has been in 20%+ range for over a decade, Alphabet in the 25% range, Microsoft is hitting 30% regularly, and Facebook is at nearly 40% for the last 5 years.
For Amazon, I can only assume investors are factoring in huge profit margins for AWS since it seems to be singlehandedly marching Amazon’s profit margins from near 0% to 6% in the last 6 or 7 years.
Feels like a different level of profit than in previous decades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nifty_Fifty
The members of that group were the tech giants of their time.
Replace "large-cap" with "tech" in that article. Rinse and repeat.
At the end of the day, stocks are worth whatever people pay for them. It is a fact that tech stocks do have higher P/E multiples at this moment in time. The important question for investors is whether those multiples mean that the stocks are overvalued... or whether they deserve it. The market will decide that, and the answer may change drastically just like any other set of stocks.
Buffett himself has said recently that given the current interest rates stocks are not overvalued.
We have had a 40 year bull market in bonds, but that is almost certainly coming to an end. There is just no more room for that bull to run.
You can only invest given the information you have today.
All of these valuation metrics were originally derived when actively managed mutual funds ruled the roost.
Passive ETFs are imposing an entirely different trading/investing ruleset on the system.
This should not be underestimated.
The $64 questions in today's economy are:
1. Will multiple expansion continue indefinitely, thereby enabling investors to achieve higher profits than one would expect via fundamentals alone (GDP growth, profit margins, tax rates)?
2. Is the risk in the index really so low that it makes it worth an investment, even if the return absent multiple growth is something like 3-4% a year nominal?
3. When risks do emerge, can the federal government indefinitely reward investors with lower discount rates without triggering any negative consequences?
None of these is directly tied to passive investment. In fact, I'd argue the fact that investors no longer actively track what's going on in indexed portfolios creates a benign neglect situation that is contributing to the current bubble and the risk of collapse.
My biggest concern here is that the bubble is so large that, if it collapses and the government stops being able to print money to "correct" that, even those with marketable skills and decent savings won't be able to escape the undertow of the recession/depression that follows.
Over 30 years you'd be very surprised and unlucky not to make a positive return with a globally diversified stock portfolio
https://www.graphpad.com/guides/prism/7/user-guide/images/em...
This is not to dismiss the fact stock market valuations are outstripping growth of the economy, but the article is definitely making it look even worse than it is.
Every year, companies add a portion of the GDP to their overall value.
If you're printing away the value of a dollar this will inevitably get larger no matter what.