Hacker News Reader

Comment by mikeytown2 | Hacker News Reader

https://joinmastodon.org/ Might as well see what FB is scared about

If I used social networks, I might give it a try. (I did actually check it out though) But all social media networks seem anti-productive to me and, well, just not actually very social.

With respect to connecting with family & friends, I'd much prefer a pure platform based pretty much on just that.

With respect to other people with interesting things to say, I'd prefer blogs aggregating & curated sites like, well, HN itself.

For the former, I don't know how you get to a "pure" platform like that where you can communicate & share experiences/photos with each other without also letting meme-ish "lol this person of <political affiliation I hate> is an idiot"> posts through, but at the very least it could avoid surfacing them algorithmically and rewarding them with "internet points".

You’re right that it’s infeasible to block everything dumb from an online system. Humans gonna human.

> avoid surfacing them algorithmically and rewarding them

This is the key. And I’ve come to believe that the only way to prevent the platforms doing their algorithmic engagement maximization thing is to encrypt everything E2E.

The social networks you may be used to are historically manipulative, censoring and shaping your feed to benefit the social network, not the society.

The nice thing about these open protocols is that they are simply reverse chronological. You see what you choose to see, in the order it was published.

It's a totally different experience than the engineered rollercoaster that is corporate social media.

IME mastodon/pleroma/"the fediverse" is really cool because you have two kind of communities you interact with. Depending on the instance you can have a grand old time interacting with people in your "local" timeline (your instance only), but you can also venture into the wild west that is the federated timeline from all instances.

So, seems mastodon is fragmented or segmented into many independent networks. Do those interact with each other in any way? I'd hate to join one and miss truly interesting content on another...is it possible to distill multiple into one on the user end? Just asking, as I've never tried it before and the concept seems a little confusing.

Yes, on mastodon you can follow @someone@anothermastodon.local even if you are on firstmastodon.local, and the server running your instance will phone out to anothermastodon.local to retrieve posts from the person you follow.

Thanks. But how would I find said user...is there a way to get erm, the top posts of the day from anothermastodon and firstmastodon together?

There is a timeline that randomly mixes in posts from users from other instances whom users from your instance follow

Perfect. I'll give it a go. Any specific recommendations? I figured mastodon.social just because it's the largest, is that bad reasoning?

It's not bad for a user, but somewhat kills the distributed effect in the long run.

In reality, Mastodon instances block a lot of other neighboring instances a lot of the time.

While mastodon.social would ensure you are always on the latest branch of the mainline Mastodon server software as it's the 'flagship' maintained by Mastodon's main/original developer, its large size has caused an increasing number of instances to mute (still allowing their users to follow users on mastodon.social, but not to include its posts in their 'federated timeline'), or outright block the instance (meaning none of the posts on mastodon.social are accessible to the instance's users at all). Reasons for these decisions can include but are not limited to:

- the instance has grown too big and thus some consider it counter-productive towards the federated nature of the protocol

- disagreement with the direction its main developer / maintainer is taking Mastodon, such as intentionally hiding the local timeline from the official iPhone app

- some consider it under-moderated, or not responding quickly enough to reports

- disagreement over its content moderation guidelines

- in case of a mute, it could also be not wanting their federated timeline to be flooded with primarily mastodon.social posts

Lack of federation between these instances and mastodon.social could be a reason not to pick mastodon.social. (Similar situation applies to mastodon.online btw, which is a spin-off server of m.s.)

Another reason to pick a different instance could be not wanting to use mainline Mastodon software. For example because you want to run your own instance on limited hardware (Mastodon can get a bit resource intensive), don't like Ruby, miss certain features, don't like the front-end (though alternative external front-ends to Mastodon do exist), or some other reason.

Personally I've switched my primary use over to an account on an instance that runs Mastodon Glitch Edition, also known as Glitch-Soc (https://glitch-soc.github.io/docs/), which is a compatible fork of Mastodon which implements a bunch of nice features such as increased post character count (Mastodon defaults to 500 characters per post, Glitch-Soc supports increasing this in the server settings), Markdown support (though only instances that also support HTML-formatted posts will see your formatting; mainline Mastodon servers will serve a stripped down version of your post instead), and improved support for filters / content warnings / toot collapsing, optional warnings when posting uncaptioned media, and other additional features.

Another alternative Mastodon fork is Hometown (https://github.com/hometown-fork/hometown) which focuses more on the local timeline (showing posts only from your own instance) with the addition of local-only posts, to nurture a tighter knit community.

Aside from Mastodon there are other implementations of ActivityPub which can still federate with Mastodon instances, such as:

- Misskey (https://github.com/misskey-dev/misskey)

- diaspora* (https://diasporafoundation.org/) (which AFAIK inspired Google Plus back in the day)

- Hubzilla (https://hubzilla.org//page/hubzilla/hubzilla-project)

- Peertube (https://joinpeertube.org/) (focused on peer-to-peer video distribution)

- Friendica (https://friendi.ca/)

- Pleroma (https://pleroma.social/)

- Socialhome (https://socialhome.network/)

- GoToSocial (https://github.com/superseriousbusiness/gotosocial)

- Pixelfed (https://pixelfed.org/) (which started as a sort of federated Instagram alternative) and more.

Fediverse.party (https://fediverse.party/) is a nice way to discover various protocols that make up the bigger Fediverse.

Instances.Social (https://instances.social/) can also be used as an alternative to find instances, though I believe it is limited to Mastodon-based instances.

There's also the minimalist Honk[1] from 'tedunangst

[1] https://humungus.tedunangst.com/r/honk

if you're into Free and Open Source Software, fosstodon.org is an option, but you'll have to wait until your account is manually reviewed though.

Beware, many instances will blacklist other instances simply based on rumor or clique, and it makes it impossible to follow or read users on those other instances via the first.

I recommend evaluating primarily based on the censorship policies of the instance operator. For example, the list of servers on joinmastodon is restricted to those who are actively engaged in censorship of legal speech (full uncensored instances are not indexed there) so you may be interested in searching for instances not shown there, depending on your attitude toward censorship.

I've found koyu.space to be very friendly, as long as you're cool with left leaning politics posts in there.

Do you have to use federation, or can you create your own little bubble and everything is self contained?

It's self-contained by default and as you follow outside users it starts receiving their posts and so on. You don't have to participate in the whole fediverse.

Apologies, I should have worded that differently. As the server admin, can I configure it so that it's impossible to follow someone outside of that server and that server has no outbound network dependencies?

My /etc/resolv.conf currently uses

  options attempts:1 timeout:1 max-inflight:1
  nameserver 127.0.0.50

There is nothing listening on 127.0.0.50 and iptables does not permit outbound connections.

Yes, but then it's probably not the best tool for whatever you need.

Thankyou. Yes I currently use Murmur/Mumble + UnrealIRCd + phpBB for friends. Just exploring options. The UI's of my existing choices are a little dated.

Federation can be disabled and it will still work totally fine.

I am just wondering why is it such a hard requirement for you to stop other people to follow someone else that is not part of your server? Costs?

Bleedover between communities. My circle of friends are isolationists.

I am sorry, but I have to ask: why does "isolationists" sound like code for "people who are doing and sharing all types of illegal content and can not leak any info?"

I'm sure that is a thing, but my friends are not that exciting. We are just privacy lunatics and old fuddy duddies that study the behavior of corporations, governments and others. We postulate what countermeasures could be enacted to minimize the sprawling intrusive nature of the internet into our lives. We always seem to reach the same conclusion as Joshua. "The only winning move is not to play" [1]

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpmGXeAtWUw

Ok, now I am wondering how you reconcile what you are saying with the fact that we are discussing in a forum that is maintained by venture capitalists who are not-so-indirectly shaping the minds and financing all these companies that are very focused on intrude even further on our lives.

I don't get a reply link for rglullis so will reply here.

I am the crazy bold one of the group and the canary in the coal mine. You won't see any of my friends interacting on this or any other social site. I on the other hand email and make phone calls to everyone at every level of government, C-levels in corporations, investors, military leaders, scientists, influencers, etc...

Interesting. Follow-up question: how do you know that? What makes you so sure that you are the only one that is breaking out of the circle?

The appearance of impropriety is in the eye of the beholder

Federation is not forced. You can set up an instance just for you and your friends/family.

Does firstmastodon.local need to be federated with anothermastodon.local for you to follow someone on it?

I don't understand the system well enough to know if this is a dumb question or not.

Ain't a dumb question at all! It actually takes reading the ActivityPub specs to answer it, so no surprise if you didn't get it just from reading the landing page ;)

The answer is: it'll happen automatically. Just search for someone's handle, and your server will talk to that other server. When you follow that other users, your server will start federating with that other servers.

Note though that servers might block each other. For example, many Western servers block Japanese pawoo.net, since it allows posting lolicon. Western servers don't want this content in their timelines and caches, so they block it. If your server blocks another.social, you won't be able to follow anyone on there.

But your question also hints at a real problem with Fediverse (of which Mastodon is a part), which is: each instance only sees a subset of the Fediverse. Thus, searching by hashtag will only get you a subset of all posts that contain it. Full-text search is even more complicated.

Gotcha, thanks for the info. That does seem like a real problem, and I do see the complexity of the issue. Are there any current proposals for tackling it without adding centralization? Or do we just acknowledge/accept that that's a tradeoff?

There are ActivityPub relays: they are actors that re-broadcast anything sent to them to anyone who subscribes.

They are still decentralised, the aim is to populate the federated timeline. Obviously, the visibility is still a subset of the network.

As far as I can tell, Fediverse embraces this as a privacy feature. (It's more of a bump than a roadblock, but still.) I'm not aware of any projects to fix this (although I'm not very immersed into Fediverse development, so maybe check https://fediverse.party, they have a list of Fedi projects).

Theoretically you could layer something on top right? Something that consumes and publicizes everything. And then I guess you come full circle back to centralization but at least you could potentially view and search both a "local" and "global" feed.

Sure. Centralization could probably be avoided by storing the index in a DHT or something.

They are independent but federated.

The best example of how it works would be email. You can set up your own email server, and interact with other independent email servers seamlessly, or just find a provider you trust and get your email access from them.

You can "subscribe" to hashtags which allows you to follow them in a column ("timeline") as you would your followers, mixing hashtags into a single timeline if you wish.

There's also the option of adding "featured hashtags" to one's profile, allowing a user to search for users of a particular interest.

Along with the "Federated Timeline", which others have mentioned, and your follower's boosting posts (akin to retweeting) I've found it quite easy to find a diverse list of people to follow and interact with.

They're not fragmented or segmented at all. It's like email—just because you have an account on gmail.com doesn't mean that you can only email people who use GMail, you can email anyone who supports the same protocol. In the same way, users with an account on any Mastodon server can follow any other users who support the same protocol, whatever server they happen to be on. (Modulo moderation—many servers with lax moderation policies may find themselves blocked by other server administrators. Again, just like email)

Or maybe, OP wanted a whole bunch of people here to post joinmastadon.org to their FB pages. I bet it worked too.

The big problem I have with Mastodon is that it has a culture of censorship equivalent to Facebook. My recollection is that to be listed in their directory of instances, you need to abide by the content rules created by key Mastodon people, and those instances in turn are required to only peer with other instances that follow the same rules. Those rules basically include moderation based on various progressive political stances, so you can’t honestly discuss controversial topics from different perspectives. It creates a federated network that is still an echo chamber rather than a platform for civil discourse and free thought. And if that’s the case I am not sure why I need Mastodon or why I would lend it attention or credence.

Mastodon follows the activitypub protocol. There are other backends that implement the same protocol, like Pleroma; the Fediverse (all the systems that use activitypub) is bigger than mastodon, and much bigger than mastodon.social and co.

There's a sort of blocking firewall around mastodon.social and sites broadly on the same 'side' as it, in that all these servers tend to share blocklists. One of the things they'll block a server for is being 'free-speech maximalists'.

But outside of the mastodon.social bubble, there are lots of free speech maximalist fediverse instances that don't block anyone, or block different people.

Pleroma instances tend to be more free-speech oriented (because the technical choice of using Mastodon or Pleroma as your backed became part of a signalling game). I think Pleroma's better software, anyway.

We at mastodon.social don't copy our blocklist from anybody and don't consider ourselves to be on anyone's "side". Our blocklist is of a quite reasonable length for 5 years of operation and based on personal experiences of our moderation team only:

https://mastodon.social/about/more#unavailable-content

I've seen your blocklist, and meant more that smaller instances that are cut from similar broad-culture cloth are likely to copy mastodon.social's blocklist (I think doing that makes sense if you know you share sensibilities with mastodon.social's moderators).

I follow plenty of people on mastodon.social, mastodon.tech, etc., as well as people from a lot of the suspended instances in your list, and I can clearly see/feel two (really more) different 'cultures' in the fediverse.

The GP is more aligned with the second culture, I think- the culture you could label 'free speech maximalist'.

I don't really think mastodon.social should change- you've banned things you don't like, you perceive certain messages as pernicious enough to warrant a ban, that's fair- you've made a space with a certain tone and flavor, that suitable for a certain type of person.

But people are diverse, and so there are plenty that find the culture and tone of mastodon.social inferior to, say, Poast.

I think people with different sensibilities are suited to different spaces, and that it makes sense to point out that some of the spaces on mastodon.social's blocklist have value- maybe not to the median member on mastodon.social, but to people not of your culture.

To be frank, you're progressives. There's nothing wrong with that! Some of my best friends are progressives! But it's a lens that colors how you view the world, and what's ban-worthy. Again, nothing wrong with making a space that conforms to your sensibilities- but I wanted to make it clear to the GP that there are plenty of instances that don't have the same sociopolitical 'flavor' as mastoson.social, and that mastodon.social sits at the graph -centre of a particular subset of the federated network that is of similar flavor.

I think you are correct about having your instance listed, but I created my own server from a digital ocean droplet (newathens.net) (its quite easy) and I can follow anyone. So I don't know about that second part

> My recollection is that to be listed in their directory of instances, you need to abide by the content rules created by key Mastodon people, and those instances in turn are required to only peer with other instances that follow the same rules. Those rules basically include moderation based on various progressive political stances, so you can’t honestly discuss controversial topics from different perspectives.

Here are the requirements for us to promote your server:

https://joinmastodon.org/covenant

The only hard requirement related to content is that racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia be not allowed. There is no requirement to peer with anyone or have any specific political stances. If your political stance or perspective requires you to dehumanize people of different races or sexual orientation, then yes, you are not welcome.

> The only hard requirement related to content is that racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia be not allowed.

I don't know anyone who's a self-declared racist, sexist, homophobe or transphobe.

But these things mean different things to different people.

So let's say JK Rowling wants to join. Would she be welcome?

What about Glenn Greenwald?

Or Andy Ngô?

On one hand this might be a problem, on the other hand, one has to realize, that someone hosting mastodon is also in some regions of the world, responsible for taking care of preventing illegal content on the service. If I hosted a mastodon instance for example, I would have to check everything, because of upload filter rules, and if other people uploaded or posted inappropriate stuff, then I might face legal consequences for it. This needs to be kept in mind.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com