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Comment by msrenee | Hacker News Reader

Horse paste? It's not you specifically, but you're not the first person I've seen recently who has referred to it and didn't appear to understand what the substance is. Someone I know called it a "horse tranquilizer" in a conversation the other day. It's Ivermectin. It's a dewormer. It shows some promise, but more research is needed into its efficacy.

Anyone who has a baseline knowledge of medicine would call it a dewormer. It's pretty much the standard one. I feel like the fact that so many people don't have a mental compartment for a basic medical term like that nowadays really has a lot to do with how much trouble we've had controlling this virus. Of course an mRNA vaccine is scary to someone who doesn't know what mRNA is.

We're never going to escape this cycle without better science education.

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>Anyone who has a baseline knowledge of medicine would call it a dewormer

Right, but in all the contexts I've heard it, it's not just a "dewormer", it's a "horse dewormer". That's technically true, but it's also FDA approved for human consumption. Making fun of people for consuming "horse dewormer" is like making fun of people for consuming "horse tranquilizer" for their depression[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine#Depression

Except many of the people being made fun of are calling poison control because they are literally overdosing on horse dewormer. Literally apple flavored dewormer paste for horses.

Are you referring to the Rolling Stone article which then spread through cable news? That story was retracted because it was totally bogus.

There’s more to the ivermectin story than having anti-parasitic properties, even though that’s how it became famous. It also appears to have anti-viral properties [1]. And there have been 60+ studies showing its efficacy [2]. Just because it has anti-parasitic properties doesn't mean it couldn't also block biological pathways in viral infections as well.

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016635422...

[2] https://ivmmeta.com

> inhibits the replication in vitro

https://xkcd.com/1217/

FWIW researching it is good and should be encouraged but most quality clinical trials so far like NCT04429711 and NCT04391127 haven't been very promising. Those which do show a statistically significant result have been flawed in one way or another. Hopefully when the Principle Trial reports people will get over it one way or another, but it's not looking promising. It may help somewhat at best, but it's no miracle cure.

You're referring to the fake news a user a few posts above you just mentioned.

Not many. About a thousand cases this year, compared to about 700 last year. Over 300 million country. Which includes calls like "I took thus medicine and now I feel funny! Also I drunk a bottle of whiskey but that never hurt me before, must be the medicine!". The real overdose cases are in dozens, no more, over all the nation. It's like saying "many people are struck by lightning " or "many people are eaten by the sharks". It happens, but it's not many.

>horse tranquilizer

Come on, nobody calls it that, ketamine is generally known by the epithets:

"Date rape drug"

also

"Drug used to murder Elijah McClain"

Humans take ivermectin everyday to treat rosacea. Referring to it only as a dewormer is overly specific and is purposefully chosen to imply a human taking it would be out of the ordinary. It is carefully phrased propaganda.

It’s horse dewormer when your doctor won’t prescribe it for you and you go to the animal feed store to get a dose intended for horses.

The compound is the same, the dose is controlled by the user.

Horse paste is an intentionally derogatory term for it. It's not meant to be scientifically accurate.

> Horse paste is an intentionally derogatory term for it. It's not meant to be scientifically accurate.

"Horse dewormer" is as accurate as it can possibly be. It is also used extensively as a cow dewormer and pet dewormer. People are going to veterinarian and pet shops to buy paste sold to deworm horses and cows to take it themselves. They are not taking drugs produced for human consumption. They are going with the animal products designed and sold to give to animals.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/08/more-people-are-pois...

It's a dewormer for horses that literally comes in paste form: https://archive.is/k2JUb

It is also used to treat rosacea and other ailments in _humans_.

Calling it a dewormer in this context is a lie of omission.

Let me put it to you this way. Everyone knows that salicylic acid (originally derived from willow bark) is a precursor to aspirin that is effective as a pain killer, fever reducer, and anti-inflammatory. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicylic_acid and https://www.ehs.com/2015/07/salicylic-acid-safety-tips-hazar...

But salicylic acid is also used in skin care products like wart remover.

Here's a wart remover product for dogs and horses, which contains salicylic acid as an active ingredient: https://www.chewy.com/creative-science-wartsoff-wart-dog/dp/...

If, the next time you have a fever, you reach for the dog/horse wart remover... I'm gonna call that "dog wart remover" regardless of the fact that it contains an ingredient that is used to treat fevers in _humans_

In that case, why you lying by not mentioning the FDA is telling people not to take ivermectin intended for _horses_ and _cows_? [0] Or that calls to poison control centers involving ivermectin are up by a huge amount, and that the drug has repeatedly failed clinical trials for COVID? [1]

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[0]: https://twitter.com/us_fda/status/1429050070243192839

[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/30/health/covid-ivermectin-p...

That's a good point, but the majority of ivermectin in the US is used as a dewormer. Maybe I'm incorrect here, but I'd say that the principle use of this drug is as a dewormer. It can also be used in other applications, but anti-strongyles and such is the majority use.

You say it shows some promise. Do you have a credible citation? Because I've followed it closely, and nothing out there indicates it shows promise, and a lot shows it doesn't.

I'll agree that it is misleading to call it horse paste, but if you call it a de-wormer, that doesn't sound a lot better to me. It's not an anti-viral, and the only "promise" it has shown is equivalent to the promise shown by a handgun fired at a petri dish a la xkcd.

Big paper retracted recently, current status is in the low to no effect size. Still under study and might get a better grasp of effectiveness in the future, so nothing on efficacy is conclusive atm.

Since you seem to be knowledgeable is there an objective writeup of the thought process behind this whole thing e.g. Joe Rogan, who was vaguely skeptical of Covid, I think, I remember Bill Burr mocking him for having a big opinion on the manliness of masks rather than listening to doctors.

But then he got Covid and announced he was taking a medicine that some people think might help, but hasn't been proved.

Now there's all the talk about horse paste or whatever but I feel like we all skipped over a step where there's a group of people who have taken a conspiratorial approach now leaping on an unproven medicine, which just seems odd. So they've always believed in Covid, but pretended not to?

And I feel like I'm going crazy but didn't this already happen with some other drug, that people thought might be really helpful but turned out not to be?

Is it the lockdowns they don't like, the vaccines? Why is jumping on unproven meds so popular in certain circles?

So, a few things, I don't think outright covid denial is a major thread. I tend to see much more "herd immunity/get to normal" from right-adjacent circles.

Regarding Right-wing distrust: The vaccine is new tech (and I mean fundamentally new, not just another flu vaccine). This means that unlike previous vaccines, it's safety profile wasn't nearly as well understood. It's efficacy is pretty well characterized. Conversely, Ivermectin isn't just horse dewormer, it's used in humans too. It has a known safety profile, and had early research dramatic report a 90% reduction in death (the one that was later retracted). Remember, not believing in vaccines doesn't make covid go away, so you've got a chunk of people desperate for an alternative solution. So they see this "known element" and reported efficacy and think that it'll be an alternative to the vaccine.

The previous case was Hydroxy chloroquinine, and I have quite a bit of spite for both sides of that argument then too.

This study is small but shows some promise. It's at least worth further research.

https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/13/6/989

https://711web.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/The-study-foun...

It's got a picture of a horse and PASTE in a big font. But, yes, like sibling post, it's used derisively for people who won't get a free vaccine known to reduce death 10x+ but will get random shit radio hosts tell them to try.

The human formulation comes in tablets [1].

Anyway, there's no reason ivermectin couldn't be used to treat breakthrough cases in people who have taken the vaccine as well. So it's something that could help everyone.

[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=ivermectin+tablets

If someone knows about medicine, are they required to utilize proper words like efficacy?

There is no evidence that it brings any preventative or curative effects as regards covid. It has side effects, especially when taken at high dosage, which the people shilling it recommend and those taking it do. They buy the horse version as it's cheap and available without prescription. So it is indeed horse paste they are taking, even if the same substance is also used in properly dosed human products, used in specific situations where it is effective. "Anyone with a baseline knowledge of" pharmacology would also agree that the standards applied to vet and human pharmaceuticals are not the same, as well as that the active ingredient is not the only thing that matters, as e.g. how the product is packed or what other ingredients are included to ensure efficidnt uptake varies between products.

So, at best, people take a sane dose and it has no effect whatsoever as covid is not an intestinal worm. At worst, they take too much and it makes them more ill. There are indeed people hospitalised for it, whether that's a global, national, local or non-issue I can't say but that any unnecessarily sick person in the context of a pandemic takes another bed away is pretty obvious.

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