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Comment by kungfufrog | Hacker News Reader

I had never heard the phrase, "open the kimono", before, as referenced here in a summary of events leading to her firing: https://www.ashleygjovik.com/ashleys-apple-story.html

I find it hard to see the implicit sexism in this. Truth be told, if I heard the phrase around the workplace and someone took issue with it I'd probably be internally rolling my eyes.

Am I different from the average person? Do other people have an automatic, internal and visceral reaction to such locutions that I'm lacking?

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> I find it hard to see the implicit sexism in this.

The investopedia page is rather coy,

> There are conflicting etymologies for this phrase, but the one closest to its current business connotation is the idea of Japanese people loosening their kimonos to relax at home, much like loosening a tie. [1]

Women in Japan haven't exactly enjoyed equal status in the western sense and there is a boat load of subjugation that probably went into coming up with this phrase. The worst example is probably the use of "comfort women" [2] by the Japanese army in WW II. These women were enslaved for sex.

So of course a woman would find this offensive, particularly when directed at her, since if you know any history it is easy to imagine this phrase originating from "open your kimono and have sex with me." I can also imagine oblivious men in tech repeating it if they didn't "get it" at first because they had heard other men use the phrase without realizing its origin. However you do deserve to be called out if you continue using it while feigning ignorance. Your response should simply be, "oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize the implications of this phrase. I'll stop using it." And if you can't do that then HR should get involved.

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women

Is there any link between "open the kimono" and "comfort women" or is that conjecture?

It's a fascinating phrase, perhaps not least because nobody knows where it comes from but somehow people also seem to know that it's innocuous or know that it's sexist.

That was conjecture on my part. Now that I read more of that investopedia link, I see it likely came from Jobs, which would explain the use of the phrase at Apple,

> Steve Jobs, the founder of Apple, notably used the expression in 1979 during a visit to Xerox Parc. He reportedly said: “Look, I will let you invest a million dollars in Apple if you will sort of open the kimono on Xerox Parc.” This memorable expression and meeting apparently led to him discovering the mouse, and Apple subsequently launching the first commercial mouse. [1]

In that context it seems fine to me. He's talking about a product. Now, clearly, "open the kimono" means to bare something naked. If you ask a person to be more "open kimono" as a way of asking them to be more open, I think that crosses a line. And, maybe if you suggest someone go "open kimono" on their work, that could be received offensively while not being intended that way. So, context matters. I'd probably steer clear of it entirely though.

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp

> I'd probably steer clear of it entirely though.

Agreed, it's a bizarre phrase probably best left unused.

I once had a FAANG client call out someone from my company for using that phrase. To be fair, it seems more sexually evocative than is really necessary when talking about metrics on PowerPoint slides.

No, you're not different. There is a type of person who wants to find offense, and they will find offense with a phrase like this. Most people are not that way.

Wiki says that aside from formal occasions and festivals the most common people to be seen wearing kimonos are geisha, maiko, and sumo wrestlers.

“Open the kimono” in the context of who the primary wearers are comes off as crass and not fit for the workplace

Then wiki should check their sources. When you see people with kimono on the streets in Tokyo I assure you that "geisha" is not what comes to mind.

Context matters, the context of hearing the English phrase is not the streets of Japan.

Its context here is business settings in America. So I was wrong I saying random person on the street, I should have said random American office worker.

Anyway, it’s rather satisfying that those against what they call “cancel” culture react to opinions they deem unpopular by downvoting, it shows they don’t care about the principal of what they call “cancel” culture in general but only care that what they are used to is being “cancelled”.

I’ll whole grant you that said in Japanese in Japan the phrase could be okay, I have no idea about that.

Has anyone tried googling the term to see what comes up? Many posts explaining or talking about why the term is problematic. People downvoting are trying to ignore facts they dislike, but that doesn’t make facts go away.

This even comes up https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23549563

I’m commenting on the wikipedia comment, that is the context.

I haven’t discussed cancel culture, nor downvoted anything. Not that that’s even related to each other.

The fact of the matter is that the phrase does not denigrate Japanese culture, it is completely gender agnostic and is not an innuendo. That’s objectively true.

So either it’s the American phobia of even pretending that other cultures exist, or it’s the equally American phobia of nudity. Even in a figure of speech.

None of those are objectively true. Please research the term by googling it before declaring things are objectively true about it.

The top google results show it’s taken by many to be a sexist term.

An appeal to authority?

I mean, you can find Google results that can affirm almost any opinion, but that doesn’t make your argument here any less silly than it already is.

When you read “open the kimono” try thinking “drop your pants” to get the gist.

It’s totally valid that you don’t have the reaction to this that others do, and i think it’s just important that when people say “this language is demeaning and hurtful to me” that we acknowledge that as valid too.

Well, I have two reactions to this:

1) "Drop the pants" doesn't offend me 2) I don't know why it's assumed kimono is a reference to a garment exclusively worn by women and certainly the etymology of the phrase is not clear that it pertains at all to Geisha's or "comfort women"

The best evidence I can find online suggests its a reference from feudal Japan where one could prove one wasn't harbouring any weapons.

However, I do agree that when someone says, "this language is demeaning and hurtful to me", that you should at least reflect internally on whether that's a valid position for them to hold and if so change your own behaviour to cease using a certain phrase.

The bit that stumps me, and I mean I'm totally flummoxed here, is what do I do when I fundamentally disagree with someone else about the implicit sexism or bias of an expression? What if it's something as innocuous as "low-hanging fruit", and, a colleague is offended by that?

EDIT: Actually, I just had a reaction to this, which is when someone else polices my phrasing, I feel misrepresented and attacked. Especially when there exists enough ambiguity that it would be impossible to determine whether there was intent or some hitherto unearthed entrenched bias in my choice of words. So now we're in a circular argument. I feel victimised, and they feel victimised.

Oh gosh, now I'm having flashbacks of past toxic relationships.

> the etymology of the phrase is not clear that it pertains at all to Geisha's or "comfort women"

It seems like a strong possibility to me. If someone told me something I was saying offended them, I'd stop using it in their presence and would reconsider using it in general. It's just common courtesy and in this case it's easy to see how someone could interpret it as a sexualized phrase even if you didn't intend it that way. In short, that's not a hill worth dying on, online or IRL.

> what do I do when I fundamentally disagree with someone else about the implicit sexism or bias of an expression?

In this case you ask at least one 3rd party, maybe more. Some of your mentors should be similar to the person who feels victimized, in this case a woman. So do that in real life where you know them, not online.

> What if it's something as innocuous as "low-hanging fruit", and, a colleague is offended by that?

Haha, that's pretty funny and apt. Lead with that when you ask for advice on this.

> I feel victimised, and they feel victimised.

That's also fine. You deserve to have your concerns heard. When someone else is the first to raise a concern with you, it's necessary to listen to them first. Then when they indicate they feel understood (you can ask them directly), you can follow with your concern.

Thanks for the thoughtful and considered replies, lots of food for thought! I genuinely wish to understand how to approach these issues better in terms of my own internal thought processes but also how others feel. At some point though, I think the feelings of others have less merit than my own, I'm just unsure how to be certain of where that boundary is and want to avoid being an inconsiderate jerk at the same time.

> I think the feelings of others have less merit than my own, I'm just unsure how to be certain of where that boundary is and want to avoid being an inconsiderate jerk at the same time.

Good news, you're on the right track. Acknowledging that there is a problem is the first step. Many people don't get there.

If you're introspective, get some self help books. John Gray's Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus [1] can open doors to understanding the opposite sex, even if you don't agree with everything he writes. The crux of the problem is we all assume everyone wants the same thing, and we do, but we prioritize things differently. So, people spend a lot of time giving what they want to receive because that's what they want. Then we feel empty and spent.

It's like if I like coffee and you like milk. I keep gifting you coffee and you keep gifting me milk. Neither of us "feel whole" from these transactions. The gifts don't feel thoughtful to the recipient. Meanwhile, we think we have everything we want, yet we know something's missing and we can't figure it out.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IHZ91T6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...

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