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Comment by jedberg | Hacker News Reader

The way you know it is all security theater is TSA pre. I haven't taken my shoes off, my laptop out, or gone through the hands-on-your-head scanner in years, because the TSA pre-check line doesn't require any of that.

Because apparently verifying my ID before arrival at the airport makes me less of a threat.

Or maybe it's the $80 they get every few years that makes me less of a threat...

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Pre seems like a nice service for terrorist groups, too: sign up your deep-cover types and have them make some benign flights. If the TSA is on to your group, you'll get a notification in the mail that your Pre status has been revoked.

Aside: when I talk about this program, I refer to it as "T-S-A precheck" because it's depicted as "TSA Pre <checkmark>".

I often hear it referred to as "TSA Pre" and it seems to be the case here too. I agree that the signage is unclear but I don't think it's intended to be called "TSA Pre".

Right, TSA even refers to it as "TSA PreCheck" on their website: https://www.tsa.gov/precheck

Until this specific thread I've never seen or heard it referred to as "TSA Pre". It has always been precheck. I suppose now I'll start to notice people doing it.

I'm just lazy and call it TSA Pre. :)

Hmm. So it's a deliberate abbreviation? I'd always assumed that folks who referred to it that way didn't know the actual name because of the icon in place of 'check'.

In my case it is. I'm sure a lot of people do it because of the check mark.

The rollout of TSA Pre confirmed my belief that TSA is a worthless hinderance on travel. But, it is par for the course with anything remotely political. Create a solution to a problem that is outsized for the risk. This solution creates a new problem. Offer a workaround for the newly created problem instead of removing the previous solution.

Most of the political solutions I see tossed around are bandages on wounds inflicted by current policies. Nobody ever suggests removing the policy that is actually causing the problem in the first place.

TSA Pre requires fingerprinting and a background check. You definitely give up some privacy in signing up for it. I mean you can unlock some computer devices with fingerprints.

The government already has my fingerprints, because I had to give them to get a passport (edit: I've been informed this was only because I also did Global Entry) and also when I was in elementary school they fingerprinted everyone and also when I got my driver's license.

Pretty much if you're a US citizen they already have your fingerprints.

Definitely! Or if you’re a green card/visa holder.

If you need a U.S. Visa, fingerprints are required. U.S. citizens and people from Visa Waiver countries don't need to be fingerprinted.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/visa-inf...

Oh, good to know! I thought so, my wife had hers taken when she got her passport. Maybe because it was at an embassy? Either way, thanks for the clarification.

I don’t remember having fingerprints done for my passport, though it was twenty years ago. Did that change?

Finger prints for passports is not a thing.

> because I had to give them to get a passport

As far as I know that isn't a requirement for a standard US Passport (maybe a Diplomatic/Government/Service passport?).

Who even would take the fingerprints? I went to the USPS, and they just checked the form, stamped it a few times, and shipped it along with my supporting documents off.

> also when I was in elementary school they fingerprinted everyone.

That also isn't standard/normal.

Didn’t have to fingerprint for a passport, but did for a Texas driver’s license with some hand wavy reason I don’t remember.

That was only true for a relatively short period of time.

https://www.kxan.com/news/texas-no-longer-collecting-all-10-...

Doesn't mean they didn't keep the records

The article you linked says they will collect a single finger print for a driver's license, they no longer collect all 10.

> Pretty much if you're a US citizen they already have your fingerprints.

False. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-app...

My spouse and I renewed our passports in the last 10 years, and got our kids passports for the first time. We did not provide fingerprints.

I am a U.S. citizen. I went through an SF86 clearance in the early 2000s and don't recall even that requiring my fingerprints (but I could be wrong about that). I only recall giving up my fingerprints twice:

1. To unlock my Apple devices, safely locked in a secure enclave. 2. For TSA Pre.

I distinctly remember getting fingerprinted for my clearance paperwork. And those that get TS/SCI have to get polygraph test every couple years.

You didn't have to give your fingerprints when you got a driver's license?

Where on earth would people accept such an encroachment on their privacy and right to unreasonable search and seizure just to obtain proof they have passed an examination? Soviet Russia? The DDR? Orwell's Oceania?

It isn't just proof you passed an exam -- it's also your ID card. The fingerprints are part of your government ID. Here in California you have to give a thumbprint or fingerprint to get both a license and a state issued ID card. The license serves as both proof of passing and as an ID so you don't need two cards.

Here in California everyone who has a driver's license had to have a fingerprint/thumbprint taken.

No, never. I’ve had licenses in FL, GA, NC and CA.

They for sure took your fingerprints in California. It's required to get a license.

Search this for fingerprint: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/file/california-driver-handboo...

You may just not remember because it's electronic.

And it was 20 years ago...

I got my license in California in 1993 and it was required then too. I remember because we made fun of how the driver handbook said, "you must provide your thumbprint, or your fingerprint if you have no thumbs".

There are multiple clearances with different requirements, so it is possible that certain types require finger prints while others do not. However, AFAIK everybody who gets a clearance also has their fingerprints taken. The finger prints may not be available to regular LEO for dragnets to reduce the chance of leaking out the personal information of every cleared individual to foreign agents that have infiltrated law enforcement.

> However, AFAIK everybody who gets a clearance also has their fingerprints taken.

Ah, you’re right. I just found some correspondence related to the clearance and I did indeed provide fingerprints. The company I was working for at the time apparently was working with the NSA. I have almost no recollection of this. Maybe the MIB wiped my mind.

> finger prints may not be available to regular LEO for dragnets to reduce the chance of leaking out the personal information of every cleared individual to foreign agents that have infiltrated law enforcement.

I don’t know how far back this leak went, but I wouldn’t be surprised if my info was part of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management...

U.S. passports do not require getting fingerprinted. U.S. Visas require fingerprinting.

I don't think fingerprinting kids is universal or even the norm. I haven't found anything that says it's required anywhere. I have found information about parents having their child's fingerprints in their own records and examples of programs emphasizing that only the family has the record, they're not kept by local government, let alone in a federal system.

https://www.usa.gov/passport

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/visa-inf...

https://www.pcsdma.org/fingerprint.html

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/stories/2006/july/idk...

I remember cops coming to my elementary school (this would have been around 1995) and fingerprinting everyone “for fun”.

I had this happen too. We put our fingerprints onto an "ID" card we got to keep. As far as I remember the fingerprints didn't actually go anywhere else.

> when I was in elementary school they fingerprinted everyone

Yes, they put it on your permanent record which any govt official can access using a simple zoom and enhance.

You joke but the permanent record is a real thing. My wife taught elementary school for many years, and at the end of the year she had to update all the permanent records and then pass them on to the next teacher. The records moved with you from school to school.

Some High Schools allow you to request your permanent record when you graduate, most just destroy them.

But yes, a government official can get a copy with a warrant just like any other record.

I had to give up my fingerprints to maintain a drivers license, but that doesn't get me TSA Pre.

I'm having trouble finding any state where a standard drivers license currently requires being fingerprinted. Texas did it for a little while but stopped in 2015. Some specialty licenses require it, like a commercial license to carry hazardous materials.

"REAL ID" requires fingerprints, which will soon be required to fly.

"Soon" being May 3, 2023 at the moment. I've lost count how many times the requirement for Real ID to fly has been delayed.

So far, searches haven't turned up authoritative information (on a current, relevant federal or state sites) on Real ID requiring any biometrics. I believe it, I just haven't found an official source confirming it.

I got a REAL ID several months ago and definitely didn't get fingerprinted in the process.

California requires your thumbprint (or fingerprint if you have no thumbs) to get your license.

I've seen second-hand references to that but only find references to prints being taken for occupational licenses on authoritative sites, like this one:

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/vehicle-industry-services/occu...

Search this document for the word finger: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/file/california-driver-handboo...

It's in there a few times.

Global Entry also requires these things, and an interview, and you get TSA Precheck included.

It's 100% this. Artificial inconveniences created to convince people to willingly give up all their information past, present, and future for government surveillance. That they additionally convinced us to pay $80 for that is just perfection.

> give up all their information past, present, and future for government surveillance

Buddy, who do you think issued me the passport, social security card, birth certificate, and driver's license I used to get TSA Precheck?

The government is utterly terrible at any sort of cross-division or state vs federal information sharing. TSA is a relatively new agency (homeland) and needed to build up that data mostly from scratch.

I mean, I agree in general but it is also likely that they're performing at least some kind of background check on you when you participate in Pre. They definitely do with Nexus. It does make a certain degree of sense as a program if you believe in the premise of the entire security theatre apparatus to begin with. Especially within the US where domestic air travel has traditionally required very weak identification (driver's license).

That is, you're paying them for the privilege of reducing their attack surface a little bit.

They run a background check on you whenever you buy an airline ticket. The airline submits their manifest to the TSA to cross check with the no-fly list. The only thing that TSA pre does is give you a number that is unique to you (as opposed to a name that you may share with someone else). They could easily solve this by having you submit your SSN or Passport number whenever you buy an airline ticket.

I agree on Nexus, they basically do the entry interview ahead of time and then assume the answers are the same until they aren't (I have that too). That one actually makes sense.

The no-fly list isn't really a background check. It's just a simple name match, and it catches people who aren't on it because of that. An interview (like nexus or customs) also isn't a background check. These are three separate things. Everyone gets a check on the no-fly list, some people get advance background checks (Pre and programs like it I'd expect), and fewer still get an actual interview (international travellers who also have to supply a passport).

Having a unique ID number tied to other information about you (like your license ID number or passport number or SSN) allows for a more in depth check, no doubt in ways you probably don't even explicitly consent to.

If they did have your ssn or passport number from the airline at ticket purchase time then sure, that would allow for the same thing. But they don't. And if they did it'd be pretty expensive to do it for everyone. So, the current solution is basically just to make (some) people pay for their own background check.

> domestic air travel has traditionally required very weak identification (driver's license).

They have been trying to bump that requirement to RealID for years but a lot of states still don't issue it as their default license/ID so less than half of IDs in the US are compliant with the RealID standards. It's been pushed back for years maybe a decade by now? I wonder how long it'll be until it actually gets implemented.

Real ID has been implemented in every state and most territories. Not all share their databases with each other, but that isn't a requirement for usage for using the ids for air travel in the US.

After a few big delays, the deadline for having a compliant id for domestic air travel is 2023-05-03.

I personally had a bad experience attempting to get a compliant id when I lived in Arizona. At the time you could select if you wanted a compliant id or a non-compliant id. My wife and I both selected on the form to get compliant driver's license. Unfortunately when the physical licenses came in the mail they had they weren't compliant and had text indicating they weren't valid for federal identification.

We tried to get them to change this and they refused. Friends had experienced the same issue at the time, but I've been told they now have valid ones that you can get more easily.

Yeah they all offer it but at least in my state it's an additional cost which means a lot of people will choose the cheaper easier option. Also that deadline has been changed many many times and I bet it will again in/before 2023 if adoption rates don't increase a lot.

I just recently refreshed my ID and got a RealID pretty easily at least. The trickiest piece was making sure I had all my documents, had to print out a cable bill because all my bills are paperless now and mortgage papers (one of the few I've kept paper bills on for) didn't count on their list.

Isn't it also the preliminary and ongoing background check. Essentially they're saying we can check you well enough to decide if you're a 'threat'.

See my sibling comment, the TSA does a background check on everyone who flies already. The difference is that with Pre you have a unique number instead of a possibly non-unique name.

Cross checking against no-fly is different than a full background check. My guess is they're running a very light check but Pre digs deeper into your history.

Exactly, it will never go away for the same reason the unskippable ads in between turns on the hottest new mobile game will never go away. It's the torture designed to get you to pay up.

Regretfully, "Available to US citizens, nationals and LPRs" only.

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