Hacker News Reader

Comment by stoolpigeon | Hacker News Reader

The US is the only place I think I've had to remove shoes for flight security in years. But in Europe taking off a belt is often required while in the US it is not. In Budapest they stopped having us remove laptops from bags a bit ago. My biggest challenge over the years was remembering what to do in each place as the security people at the airports had a tendency to get upset if you didn't do it their preferred way.

View on HN

"My biggest challenge over the years was remembering what to do in each place as the security people at the airports had a tendency to get upset if you didn't do it their preferred way."

It can differ from airport to airport. I traveled from Ottawa to Toronto often enough for it to be mindless but differences between two national airports in same province of same country on same airline still caught me if I went too much on autopilot.

And then I'd fly to Halifax and all my instincts went out the window :).

Sometimes it'd differ shift to shift. Agents would get mad at me for taking or not taking tablet from my bag. Mentioning "your colleague instructed me otherwise, can you kindly confirm the rule so I can comply in future" only gets you marked as belligerent - the power trip is definitely there :-/

I'd stick with the more conservative measure, taking the tablet out all the time, even if it might not have been required. Also I wouldn't bother verbally responding if they ask me to do something, I'd just do it and keep my lips sealed.

I've been yelled at for taking out things besides a laptop, including a tablet with a keyboard case.

I'm not even clear what the issue was; it was just a general "don't take your tablet out!!" as if it was an obvious rule that anyone with common-sense would understand, and clearly I was a fool the agent had no time for.

A simple "okay" followed by compliance also works.

Oh I would agree; if being conservative always worked - but my point is I've frequently been berated for taking a tablet out as well as for keeping it on at the same airport.

I kind of understand overall - At a busy airport, being overly conservative (taking out tablets, shoes, belts, coins etc when not needed) can be seen as "wasting people's time". It's the inconsistency of rules and their application that sometimes bugs me - There's no 100% winning strategy.

When I was flying back from Tampa, a TSA agent told me I had to take out my phone and put it through the scanner. I kept telling him I didn't have a phone on me, but he didn't believe me and asked me the same question about three more times. I was surprised he didn't search me haha. Not a big deal or anything, just thought it was funny

Just ask in French.

Then they'll most likely bring you to the only employee that's not a contractor.

It also differs within airports. I flew in LAX a week ago and one of the non-precheck lines only took off shoes, but left liquids and laptops in bags and did a generic metal detector. They didn't even randomly assign people to lines, it was apparently early enough for me to choose to use that line since it was obviously moving faster.

There is an impatience mismatch between the average traveler and airport security.

Flying out of Philly Airport, the TSA yelled at everyone to take off their belt and shoes, shaking their head in disbelief at people that didn't know the rules, wasting everyone's time.

A few months later, same airport, new rules, now the TSA yelled at people taking off their belts and shoes because that's not a rule, shaking their head at people wasting everyone's time.

When you work at any job you tend toward assuming all people are as knowledgeable about the 'obvious' things, it is a tough skill to remain empathetic. I fly maybe 3 times a year. A security agent will process a few thousand people a shift. We are each bringing a different patience threshold to the interaction.

The Philly airport employees are some of the least hospitable I've encountered traveling, especially their TSA. They come off as actively hostile about everything

Interesting, I have not spent a whole lot of time in Philadelphia but that describes my experience everywhere there, seemed like everyone is always angry and impatient with me before I even start to interact. (Kind of like the NYC stereotype, which I encounter only rarely when I visit NYC.) But TSA in general is tough to deal with, I fly once sometimes twice in a year and the rules are different every time but they're shocked and appalled I'm not up to date.

Yeah I think this is more of a Philly thing than a TSA thing.

Agreed. I was going to add that,but didn't want to be flippant. Although I still think the airport is particularly bad

That's just how people talk in Philly.

yup travelling to the US from Canada just to see a comedy show i needed to tell them how much money i have in my bank account and what i do and how much i make... what on earth... they couldn't understand why i would only stay one night...

I flew out of philly recently and witnessed an older gentleman in a wheelchair and an ID checker playing tug-of-war with plane ticket amidst yelling.

Then there’s remembering airports (and flight patterns) that do “one-stop-security” and which don’t.

London Heathrow doesn’t. They re-screen all incoming international passengers, so that 500mL bottle of contact lens solution that the ultra-paranoid Americans allow me to carry-on gets seized by Heathrow when transiting there.

I’d think if the UK disagrees with another country’s rules, they should just ban flights from there.

If it’s safe enough for me to fly in with, it should be safe enough for me to fly out with.

The airport staff must be making millions from all the leftover deodorant alone.

I just take it all in stride and try to remain Zen when I'm flying thinking about a hot shower and a beer at the hotel.

In Europe you're not required to take off your belt because of an arbitrary rule like shoes in the US. They just tell you to take it off because most belts have metal parts so they will likely trigger the metal detector.

I thought the shoes being taken off wasn't arbitrary. I thought it was because of the shoe bomber(Richard Reed)

It's arbitrary because all they do is X-ray them. X-rays can't tell you whether there are explosives in the shoe, all you can do is look for signs the shoe has been altered.

I don't think that requirement would have stopped Richard Reid. Maybe someone notices that his shoes look a little odd under the X-ray, but with sports shoes coming with weird air pockets and Heelys existing, it's not that odd.

It also slows down people moving through, making the security line a bigger target, and forces people to sit down just past security to put their shoes back on. Again, making the security line a much larger target.

We'd be better off just forcing everyone to do the hand swabs. One airport I went through had some kind of machine that purportedly could detect trace explosives coming off your clothing or skin. Those would be way better, if they work.

>We'd be better off just forcing everyone to do the hand swabs.

That or detection dogs.

> We'd be better off just forcing everyone to do the hand swabs. One airport I went through had some kind of machine that purportedly could detect trace explosives coming off your clothing or skin. Those would be way better, if they work.

I've gone through that machine six times, in one trip.

Something in my backpack set it off, so they kept running swabs over and over again until the light went green.

It was an utter waste of time for everyone involved. The fools patted me down five times, looked through all my things, ran them through the x-ray machines, and can clearly see that all I have is the clothes on my back, a laptop, and two changes of clothes. But they won't let me through the security line until their magical explosive scanning oracle shows a green light.

As if anything about the risk I pose to a flight fundamentally changed between the first swab and search, and the sixth.

The best part is they were asking me what is causing it to go off. Why are you asking me? I don't know a god-damned thing about your magical black box.

We would be better off, if they just left everyone alone and let people get on the plane.

> the shoe bomber(Richard Reed)

Hmm, haven't heard that name in a while. I remember all the crazy press about him.

Fascinating details in his Wikipedia article - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reid :

> The explosive apparently did not detonate due to the delay in the departure of Reid's flight. The rainy weather, along with Reid's foot perspiration, caused the fuse to be too damp to ignite.

Seems his biography was that of a petty criminal whose journey to radicalism began in prison. Pretty sad to think about. One considers an alternate reality in which he would have been rehabilitated beforehand instead. Seems like he might have had some serious problems, though.

The fact that the shoe rule does not apply to precheck speaks volumes about how arbitrary it is...

> My biggest challenge over the years was remembering what to do in each place as the security people at the airports had a tendency to get upset if you didn't do it their preferred way.

For as much as I complain about security theater and think they’re mostly useless, this is genuinely my biggest issue with TSA. It’s wildly inconsistent, there’s insufficient signage, and they act like you’re an idiot if you haven’t correctly guessed what today’s rules are.

Two weeks ago in San Diego, the security line forked into two conveyor belt lines. I walked past the first option (the second had a shorter line), and as I did, the guy stationed there was loudly shouting to the whole line that all electronic devices bigger than a cell phone must be removed from bags. I proceeded to the second line, where I got scolded for taking my laptop out of my bag. I gestured to the other guy and said "he told us all electronic items bigger than a cell phone should be removed." The response? "That's that line, this is this line."

This is my biggest complaint too. The entire idiotic process would be a lot more efficient if they just had consistent expectations and a consistent process so we could all just comply without having to clarify things or being told we're doing it wrong.

Also, could they please give us a reasonable place to move our stuff to while we put our shoes on so we're not holding up the line?

> My biggest challenge over the years was remembering what to do in each place as the security people at the airports had a tendency to get upset if you didn't do it their preferred way.

Exactly this. I'm sure to the security people, it feels obvious since it's what they do every day for hours consistently, but I agree that the inconsistency is very frustrating.

Hands behind your back Hands up Keep your hands where i can see them .....etc

The belt thing is supposedly because metal buckles will trigger the metal detector... but they insist I take off mine even though I bought one with a plastic buckle on purpose. So yeah, it now became "a rule" which is followed without much reasoning.

Same reason we take our shoes off in Europe, plastic shoes? no problem, but god forbid boots with metallic straps for the laces.

It's a rule because it makes it easier to keep things flowing. You don't have to trust that the person is right about their belt not being able to set off the metal detector.

Sometimes I get the magic "Pre-check" and I'd forget I don't need to take the laptop off, for example.

I just try to look ahead and see what others are doing.

Pre-check screening is the EZPass of the security state. Exchange your privacy for convenience. Submit to a background probe and permanent residence in a government database (and god knows what other consents are required) and you, too, can join the upper tier of society. Leave the filthy plebes and their shoeless drudgery and pat-downs behind you as you ascend into the clear air of the Verified(TM) elite. You pose no threat, quite the opposite! You support and serve the power structure. Welcome aboard!

Aside from the interview, the government already has all the background check data in their databases already. It’s not like you’re applying for a security clearance where agents go around your friends, family and neighbors digging up undocumented dirt.

Do you know for a fact that your background screening does not now or will not ever include calling out to a social media extremist detection service? I'm not so confident.

I’m also not confident in that. But again, if someone has put me in an “extremist detection” database I’m already in the database and the government could already query it.

Would you like to be subject to Twitter's or Facebook's interpretation of extremist?

why would the government care if i’m banned from twitter?

Why would the government care to have you banned from Twitter?

The TSA gets all the info they'd need to do that when you buy a ticket. Precheck or not.

It's increasingly not even that convenient. The last half-dozen times I've traveled, "PreCheck" turned into me going through the regular security line, carrying a card which they ignored.

How does that even happen? I have pre-check, and it's always been an entirely separate line. They'd have to do a fair amount of work to redirect you over to the 'regular' line.

It used to happen only at smaller airports that didn't have the capacity to handle extra lines. But lately, I've had it happen at bit airports (like ATL), so I'm not really sure.

The answer to your (implicit?) question is that it doesn't work. The staff take the card from you at the start of the process, and once your bag is in the machine, they have no idea if it's yours. So far, every time this has happened, I"ve been singled out for additional security.

So after you already start the x-ray process, they take you aside and make you do the shoes, belt, and the rest?

If I sound confused, it's because I am :). I don't get a pre-check card, it just shows up as a notation on my boarding pass. I scan it just like normal, then shove my phone into my backpack and toss it on the belt. No removing my shoes, belt, etc.

They also won't touch my bag, and I have to be the one to push it onto the feed belt of the scanner. They have to have a pretty good idea that it belongs to me.

Coincidentally, I just travelled through ATL a few weeks ago. It's never as smooth as my home airport (PDX) because it's a much busier airport, but I don't recall anything out of the ordinary happening.

> I don't get a pre-check card, it just shows up as a notation on my boarding pass.

(Not the person you replied to.)

These are different things. It has nothing to do with you or your eligibility, but the specific time and place.

If you're eligible for PreCheck and have it printed on your boarding pass, at some airports and security lines that don't have a PreCheck lane open, you're given a laminated card that the first agent tells you will accord some of the PreCheck benefits. As with the OP, these didn't always work in practice in my experience.

The PreCheck line can temporarily be closed in a larger airport that would normally have one, or this may be a more permanent process in a smaller airport that might not have the space.

Interesting. I have never run into that. Thanks for the information.

My local airport is so small that they don't process security until half an hour before boarding. We have one "gate", and the planes we get can hold 50 people when full.

I have Precheck (always marked on the boarding pass and I assume it shows up on their screen when I scan it), and what happens is the person at the podium notes it and lets his colleagues down the line know. I get a card, and show it to the person handling the body scanner, at which point they send me through the metal detector instead. There isn't much difference when it comes to the bag scanning (if any).

Don't forget that it also costs money.

Nothing like a government-sponsored system to make life visibly better for those who can afford it. And - since it siphons line-space and machines - harder for everybody else.

Sometimes I think that pre-check, toll-roads, and their ilk will take us all to the guillotine if we keep it up long enough.

At least in Kansas, the toll roads are not using tax money, so that's better than a government-funded TSA wanting more cash from you to make your life easier.

Ugh, you mean that stretch of the Turnpike on 70 that forces you to pay a toll for travel between Topeka and Kansas City? Not exactly an optional tollroad if you're driving across the country on 70, and you can tell they're not using a lot of the money to maintain the roads...

I always though taking off a belt it was bcause if not the metal sensor would trigger, so to avoid it, they just ask to remove your belt in case it contains metal?

In Canada that's the case. But small belts can go through. So it depends on the security guard what exactly they ask you to do. I had purposefully bought a small belt that would not trigger alarm when I flew weekly pre-covid for years. No joy : Half the security guards told me to take it off as a precaution when I tried to go through, half would get upset I'm taking my small belt and delaying everyone - sometimes there's no winning, just say "yes sir/ma'am" to whatever they ask that particular day :-/

It is. I don't take off my belts with no metal parts in Europe and it's been fine. Once they even asked me and I said 'no metal' so they didn't press.

I've had to take my shoes off in a few other places, including in Ethiopia and a few places in S.E. Asia. But I confirm that the US takes things to a level beyond anything anywhere I've been, with some airports being worst than others. Nowadays when I buy plane tickets, I usually try to avoid any transit through LGA or JFK.

Taking belt off because it trip off the metal detector.

Had to do it (removing shoes) yesterday going from Amsterdam to Edinburgh. Seems less common but it happens still.

Counterpoint, I was once asked to take off my shoes in Germany. I can’t remember if it was Frankfurt or Munich — probably Frankfurt. That was just because I was randomly selected for more screening. All of the other times flying through those airports shoes were left on :-)

Reply on news.ycombinator.com