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Comment by seandougall | Hacker News Reader

I think it may be a regional thing. I can't count the number of times truck drivers have nearly run me off the road by swerving into my lane for no discernible reason and then braking (when there's no other truck to pass and nothing to brake for).

But while that happens all the time in Northern California, I've never had it happen elsewhere. I drive down I-5 through the Central Valley all the time, and the truck drivers there are wonderful. I'll happily brake for them; it's the SUV drivers who cause the problems around there (and who are probably the ones flipping off the truck drivers).

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I definitely felt a lot better when entering California, where they're required to stay on the right lane, and not to pass cars, than when I was going through El Paso, and my mom and I were almost killed by two passing trucks who swerved into my lane, in plain daylight, as if we weren't there.

I didn't flip the bird, but I would have if they'd be able to see me. I wonder why more states don't have similar regulation?

Within Houston, we often have the left lane (of at least 3) marked as "no trucks", but as soon as I get too far out of town, all the roads drop to 2 lanes and such a rule would be impossible due to the amount of truck traffic.

Out of curiosity, I have to ask where you were in relation to the truck? They have humongous blind spots that you really should take care to stay out of and if you were in one I'm not surprised if you almost got hit. A number of relatively new drivers are still getting used to dealing with their blind spots and need to learn better, but people really need to be careful about where they are.

EDIT: Not saying you were necessarily in one, but most times I've seen cars "being run off the road" or "nearly getting hit" they've been in the wrong place so I've taken to asking.

I was on the right-hand side of the road, a little in front of them, near an exit. They took that exit.

Perhaps I was on the wrong side of the road, but I don't know, that sounds terrible.

You were fine; they were wrong.

That sounds like you were driving just fine, but I'm curious how they almost killed you if you were in front of them?

They took the exit, so as to not miss it, they sped up to catch it and cut me off.

I remember it took a second or two for me to figure out what was going on, while my mom was telling me to hit the brakes slowly and start leaning to the far-right of the road (where you stop if there is an emergency).

> they've been in the wrong place

Er, no, the blind spot is the responsibility of the one whose vehicle has a blind spot.

Yes, it's useful for you to be aware of their blind spot, and try to stay out of it, but at no point does that give the driver with a blind spot the right to blindly invade your completely legal road space.

The blind spot is the responsibility both of the driver with the blind spot and of anyone interacting with that vehicle and this goes double with a tractor-trailer. In a normal small car you might be able to overcome blind spots by actually looking over, but in a tractor-trailer some blind spots are truly blind. It is absolutely the responsibility of the truck to be aware of this fact and act safely in accord with it, but you cannot absolve people invading these blind spots of responsibility.

If trucks had no right to "invade" blind spot they literally couldn't move forward because a car can easily hide in the front blind spot.

Check your laws. The truck absolutely has no right to move into its blind spot blind. You are not legally at fault if they move into you.

To flip your example, if they did have the right, they could "literally" rear end cars legally. Which they can't, so you're wrong.

Do you have any laws in particular you'd like to point me toward? I live in California if it helps you find any.

Blind spot collisions tend to be found to have multiple causation with both drivers at fault. Yes, the truck driver shares some responsibility, but so does the idiot hanging out in the blind spot, and that's how they tend to be ruled.

More to the point, however, if you want to hang out in the truck's blind spots, I'm really not going to shed a tear for you if your car gets crushed.

Most, if not all, US states, at least, have a pretty prominent section in their drivers' manuals regarding proper driving around tractor-trailers and dealing with their blind spots. In theory, you have to know the information contained within this section to be allowed to legally drive. You are expected to adhere to it when driving around trucks and you will share fault in most blind-spot related collisions that occur with tractor-trailers.

And, yes, this does mean that it is possible (albeit unlikely) for a tractor-trailer to be totally not at fault in a rear-end on the basis of blind spots.

At any rate, the truck driver is charged with certain safety precautions when he does so but he is absolutely required to enter his blind spots just to drive the truck.

More importantly, though, the fact the truck driver requires certain safety precautions does not absolve you from having to be safe on the road.

> Do you have any laws in particular you'd like to point me toward? I live in California if it helps you find any.

You can continue to say a driver following safety suggestions to avoid getting killed by incompetent other drivers ought not be hanging out in a blind spot. Well, sure.

It's a good idea to not taunt the robber with the gun. At no point, however, does taunting the robber give him the right to shoot you.

Since you asked, here are some laws from California.

If a truck rear-ends a car, this law is applied against the truck:

21703. The driver of a motor vehicle shall not follow another vehicle more closely than is reasonable and prudent, having due regard for the speed of such vehicle and the traffic upon, and the condition of, the roadway.

If a car is passing a truck (through its blind spot), these laws apply to whether the car is at fault:

21750. The driver of a vehicle overtaking another vehicle or a bicycle proceeding in the same direction shall pass to the left at a safe distance without interfering with the safe operation of the overtaken vehicle or bicycle, subject to the limitations and exceptions hereinafter stated.

The passing car maintaining its lane does not interfere with the truck's safe operation. If the truck subsequently decides to change lanes, it now becomes the truck's responsibility to do so safely. That does not create a sudden burden on the passing passenger car to accomodate the truck.

21752. No vehicle shall be driven to the left side of the roadway under the following conditions:

(a) When approaching or upon the crest of a grade or a curve in the highway where the driver's view is obstructed within such distance as to create a hazard in the event another vehicle might approach from the opposite direction.

(b) When the view is obstructed upon approaching within 100 feet of any bridge, viaduct, or tunnel.

(c) When approaching within 100 feet of or when traversing any railroad grade crossing.

(d)When approaching within 100 feet of or when traversing any intersection.

This section shall not apply upon a one-way roadway.

Thanks to the last sentence, the passenger car is never forbidden from being in the lane to the left of the truck. Again, if the truck decides to change the traffic pattern status by changing lanes, it is the truck's responsibility to be sure its lane change is safe.

21753. Except when passing on the right is permitted, the driver of an overtaken vehicle shall safely move to the right-hand side of the highway in favor of the overtaking vehicle after an audible signal or a momentary flash of headlights by the overtaking vehicle, and shall not increase the speed of his or her vehicle until completely passed by the overtaking vehicle. This section does not require the driver of an overtaken vehicle to drive on the shoulder of the highway in order to allow the overtaking vehicle to pass.

The truck is required to give way and make it easy to pass. This law must elude many CA truck drivers who seem to get a kick out of deliberately drifting toward a passing vehicle, crowding anyone daring to pass.

When coming up on a truck I flick my lights at them while I can see their mirrors. Doesn't matter if they're traveling faster than a truck ahead of them, they are not allowed to speed up and move into my lane once I'm beside them until I'm done passing them. Doesn't stop many from acting like they're alone on the road, but it's specifically forbidden.

Passing on the Right

21754. The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass to the right of another vehicle only under the following conditions:

(a) When the vehicle overtaken is making or about to make a left turn.

(b) Upon a highway within a business or residence district with unobstructed pavement of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving vehicles in the direction of travel.

(c) Upon any highway outside of a business or residence district with unobstructed pavement of sufficient width and clearly marked for two or more lines of moving traffic in the direction of travel.

(d) Upon a one-way street.

(e) Upon a highway divided into two roadways where traffic is restricted to one direction upon each of such roadways.

The provisions of this section shall not relieve the driver of a slow moving vehicle from the duty to drive as closely as practicable to the right hand edge of the roadway.

If a truck isn't keeping to the right as is their "duty", a passenger car is allowed to pass them on the right. And it's the truck driver's legal responsibility to be able to see that they are there:

26709. (a) Every motor vehicle registered in a foreign jurisdiction and every motorcycle subject to registration in this state shall be equipped with a mirror so located as to reflect to the driver a view of the highway for a distance of at least 200 feet to the rear of such vehicle.

Every motor vehicle subject to registration in this state, except a motorcycle, shall be equipped with not less than two such mirrors, including one affixed to the left-hand side.

(b) The following described types of motor vehicles, of a type subject to registration, shall be equipped with mirrors on both the left-and right-hand sides of the vehicle so located as to reflect to the driver a view of the highway through each mirror for a distance of at least 200 feet to the rear of such vehicle:

(1) A motor vehicle so constructed or loaded as to obstruct the driver's view to the rear.

(2) A motor vehicle towing a vehicle and the towed vehicle or load thereon obstructs the driver's view to the rear.

(3) A bus or trolley coach.

(c) The provisions of subdivision (b) shall not apply to a passenger vehicle when the load obstructing the driver's view consists of passengers.

This rule applies to commercial trucks. Technically, this rule forbids "blind spots". The mirrors are required to show a continuous view of the highway from the mirror extending to 200 feet behind the vehicle. My truck (equipped with a tow haul package) has special split towing mirrors to comply with this rule, with the top half of the mirrors normal, and the bottom half "wide angle" to ensure a continuous view from parallel with the front seat through the rear of the vehicle, eliminating any blind spots.

Finally, since you're talking about driver's manuals, for the California passenger car driver's handbook, the guidelines are: don't cut off or tailgate (these are illegal anyway, regardless of truck vs car), and don't "linger" when passing. The language in this last is telling: ... after you pass the truck, move ahead of it. Do not linger, otherwise you make it very difficult, if not impossible, for the trucker to take evasive action if an obstacle appears in the road ahead. Your being there makes it "impossible" for the truck to take evasive action. Your being there does not give the truck the right to take evasive action into your lane, it makes it "impossible" for him, as he is not allowed to enter your lane.

While the driver's manual suggestions you keep citing doesn't have the force of law, here is the procedure in CA commercial driver's license (CDL) manual for what a truck driver should do before changing lanes:

Lane changes. Check your mirror to make sure no vehicle is alongside you or about to pass you. Check your mirrors:

- Before you change lanes to make sure there is enough room and signal at least 100 feet before turning. On the freeway, it is best to signal at least five seconds before changing lanes.

- After you have signaled, check to see that the lane is clear and no one has moved into your blind spot.

- Right after you start the lane change to double check that your path is clear.

- After you complete the lane change to be sure you turned off your signal lights.

If the driver's mirror has blind spots, the driver is told to be aware of vehicles moving into those blind spots, and maintain that awareness in advance of any lane changes.

Regular Checks. You need to make regular checks of your mirrors to be aware of traffic and to check your vehicle.

Traffic. Check the mirrors for vehicles on either side and in back of you. In an emergency, you will need to know whether you can make a quick lane change or stop. Use your mirrors to spot overtaking vehicles. Remember, there are blind spots that your mirrors cannot show you. Check your mirrors regularly to know where other vehicles are around you and to see if they move into your blind spots.

Again, the situational awareness is required of the truck driver before, and while, he initiates any traffic pattern changes.

Okay, so what I can determine from this post

- The truck driver does have a right to move into his blind spots if he has taken sufficient precautions to ensure that they are safe. This is completely different from "no right" to move into it.

- There is nothing absolving the car with which the truck collides of fault. [In actuality, blind spot collisions tend to be multiple causation with the car stupid enough to hang out in a blind spot sharing fault.]

- If you get hit by a truck and die, you're still dead regardless of who's at fault.

Which, incidentally, is exactly what I've been saying this entire time.

As for your hypothetical shooter, he may not have the right to shoot you, but nobody's going to be stupid enough to tell you that goading him into shooting you is not the wrong thing to do (which is about as far as that analogy is relevant).

It's extraordinary to me that you continue argue that a vehicle has a "right" to initiate a move out of their lane into a volume of space legally occupied by another vehicle.

> The truck driver does have a right to move into his blind spots if he has taken sufficient precautions to ensure that they are safe.

On the contrary, if someone is in his blind spot when he moves over, he has, by definition, failed to take "sufficient" precaution. The car not being legally responsible if the truck moves over into the area legally occupied by the car is what absolves it from fault. There's an entire industry of ambulance chasers profiting off the truck driver's absolute fault, and a phonebook size book of underhanded procedures the trucking companies try to use to duck that absolute fault.

Unless, of course, the driver crossed under his trailer from the other side, Fast and Furious style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrngnaBWvyM

> If you get hit by a truck and die, you're still dead regardless of who's at fault. Which, incidentally, is exactly what I've been saying this entire time.

That statement is correct on its face, and doesn't raise any argument at all.

The car not being legally responsible if the truck moves over into the area legally occupied by the car is what absolves it from fault.

But this is not the case. If the car is quickly moving through a blind spot as they should be and the truck hits them, that's one thing. If the car is hanging out in the blind spot longer than is necessary they are also usually found to be partially at fault. You are at least partially responsible for your own unsafe driving, even if it is technically legal.

There's an entire industry of ambulance chasers profiting off the truck driver's absolute fault, and a phonebook size book of underhanded procedures the trucking companies try to use to duck that absolute fault.

That industry profits off of absolute faults when people are safely regarding the blind spots and the trucks hit them anyway and off of the primary, although not absolute, fault of the truck when the car is not safely regarding the blind spots. It is unfortunately true that there are trucking companies using underhanded procedures and, although I have no clue how many that is, I also know it's not absolutely universal and that ambulance chasers aren't exactly innocent of underhanded procedures themselves.

That statement is correct on its face, and doesn't raise any argument at all.

Then in what way is hanging out in a truck's blind spot or blocking their trailer's swing out path (which, by the way, often is the fault of cars who move into said path after the truck has initiated its turn) not the wrong place to be, even if the car were 0% at fault?

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