Tesla Model Y became the best-selling vehicle in Norway within a week | Hacker News Reader

Tesla Model Y became the best-selling vehicle in Norway within a week

electrek.co

102 pointsunderscore_ku96 comments

Tesla makes/reports quarterly shipments so there are always spikes in the shipment months.

For example this has Model 3 in top 10 selling cars in Europe https://www.best-selling-cars.com/europe/2021-june-europe-ca... but if you check may or july, model 3 is no where. Makes me wonder if such promotion is paid for (And I am about to buy a Tesla, so nothing against them, just pointing out apparent tactics)

I'm also considering buying one, but Tesla is behind VW in EV sales in Europe overall, so I'm wondering why this is so upvoted and about the angle here.

It's most likely upvoted because:

- This place is predominately full of Americans which have little knowledge or access to european EVs (like the ones from VAG group).

- Tesla is a darling of certain fan techy population and gets a lot of hype and cheerleading from those people - which are also a large chunk of HN population.

Heck, I rarely hear about the Honda e on here, which might be the most adorable and exciting EV on the market to me! Perhaps a simpler explanation is that this is a tech forum and not a car forum, and Tesla dominates mindshare in car “technology.”

The Honda-E is too small, has too short range and over priced. Maybe that's the reason.

over priced.

How much does the Honda-E cost in the US? Here in Sweden the Honda starts at almost $20k cheaper than the cheapest Tesla Model 3. If I ever end up needing a commuter car, the Honda-E looks perfect.

Honda is not bringing the e to North America at all, so there isn't any pricing to compare. If they were I'd be camped outside a dealer to get the first one.

It's really annoying that smaller cars aren't sold in the US. There's always claims that there's no appetite for them, but how do the car companies actually know that if none are on sale and therefore there's no data?

I just leased a Bolt, but likely would have opted for an id.3 if it were available to me. Or any number of other smaller cars.

I want one of these so badly. I know it's not really practical for an American to own outside of maybe 3 city centers across the country, but they look so freakin cool.

Unfortunately, importing one will not be possible until they reach antique status and by then who knows what will be wrong with them considering how much tech is inside. Honda makes great cars, but I don't expect any car with so many new tech features (screen mirrors!) to be operating at 100% after 25 years.

Also, by that time, I'm sure there will be other cool cars that have made it to the US market that fill a similar niche. I'm just annoyed they aren't available now!

I'm seriously considering trading in my Model S for a Honda E for the sole reason that... it just looks so damn cool! I was so excited when I first saw one in the flesh.

I really want to buy a Honda ebut, the range is so underwhelming. A Zoe isn't that much bigger, but gets 400km. It would be out only car do I don't think I want to take the risk on something low range

I am personally buying a Tesla (in Europe) mainly because of the supercharger network. But I suspect the build quality of VW might be better.

Just took delivery of a Model Y in the US (Fremont build, VIN 249XXX), the quality is top notch. No paint issues/blemishes, no missing parts of fasteners, everything checked out (using this [1] checklist).

[1] https://github.com/polymorphic/tesla-model-y-checklist

The ones we are getting in Europe are still from Shanghai, not sure if that matters.

It does, units rolling out of Shanghai Gigafactory are of higher quality than Fremont. Based on reports of Model Y quality from various production points, can't go wrong (imho) with getting one regardless of where its being built. Looking forward to seeing the quality of those from Gigafactory Austin with Tesla's new single cast operation.

https://www.teslarati.com/teslas-model-y-giga-press-texas-tr...

is there a similar checklist for model 3?

You can use that same checklist I posted. There should be almost no delta except perhaps interior seating configuration. To confirm, "Model 3 checklist" returns several results, all of which seem comprehensive at a glance.

> mainly because of the supercharger network

I always find it amusing that people who use the internet think there's value in a closed network. You might as well be using AOL.

But the good news is Tesla claims that they will finally open their charging network to other brands:

https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/28/22596337/tesla-supercharg...

Tesla is doing this now to get access to government subsidies for charging infrastructure. Governments aren't going to fund single brand chargers.

This is because Tesla has restricted sales while waiting for their Berlin factory to be finished. The Ys being delivered are because red tape slowed them down by ~6 months

It's a bit amusing to see sales numbers in a small country. A bit over 1000 Tesla Model Y's were sold, and it's big news.

Tesla is selling maybe 14-15,000 Model Y per month in the U.S., which puts it roughly in the 20 to 25th most sold model. It's comparable to the ICE-only Mazda CX-5.

https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2021-us-vehicle-sales-figures-...

(A lot of models do not yet have July/August numbers.)

Of course, in the U.S., the top 3 selling models in June were Silverado, Ram and F-Series, adding up to about 155,000 vehicles that month.

The big news obviously lies in the percentages. 5 million people is a small market, but not small enough that these market shares are statistical anomalies.

Agreed.

The adoption rate is even higher in Oslo. I've seen some residential streets where 80% of the parked vehicles are EVs.

If you're only amused by this you're failing to see that when Tesla are less supply constrained (with the opening of two further factories this year) that they will go on to sell significantly more.

Obviously the incentives and taste in vehicles differs between Norway and the U.S.

What's clear is that Ford and likely Tesla would do very well to produce capable EV pick-up trucks in high quantities. So far, Ford's plans for production are quite low - less than 20,000 planned for 2022.

Yea but keep in mind two things:

A Model Y costs significantly more than a Mazda CX-5.

Tesla is dealing with supply constraints (sure others are too). Model Y long range is estimated delivery in January.

> Tesla started deliveries of the Model Y in Europe last month, and within a week it became the best-selling vehicle in Norway.

Do deliveries count as sales in the week that the customer receives the car?

If so, it’s not surprising that the Tesla model would be the best-selling car when initial deliveries arrived. I’m assuming all of those deliveries were back orders or reservations from long ago.

Yes, they all do this. Same with the VW id3 and id4

In Sweden Tesla just sold like 90 or so model 3 in August. While id4 was more like 900 or something

Indeed. This is not really newsworthy. The current best selling cars in Norway are the Skoda Enyaq and the Mustang Mach-E.

For 2021 the best selling BEV in Norway is the Model 3. The best selling BEV manufacturer is Volkswagen (which is VW, Skoda, SEAT, Audi, Porsche, Scania, MAN):

https://elbilstatistikk.no/

Didn’t I read just last week the Mustang Mach E was the bestseller in Norway, and that EVs were now over 80% of the market?

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/08/03/norway-at-84-7-plugin-e...

According to that link, "only" 64.1% for BEV (July 2021).

Now, it seems they are at 72% for BEV (August 2021).

That includes PHEV. The August record is pure BEV.

Mach-E was the bestseller last month, second place this month after the Model Y. The 80% last month were for plugin vehichles including plugin hybrid (64% battery electric, BEV), the 70% now are BEV (about 88% plugin).

The numbers change a lot from month to month. Depends on delivery rate (e.g. Tesla does bulk delivery every three months), and there is typically a spike in deliveries when a model starts shipping, since there are months of backorders to work through. New models starting shipping was Mach-E last month and Model Y this month. So it's more useful to look at longer timeframes.

Next month there won't be any shipments and we'll get articles about their epic sales collapse. :)

Since the article doesn't say, is there an economic reason why EV adoption is so high? More aggressive subsidies for new purchases? Or solely driven by expensive gasoline?

You don't have to pay the usual 25% sales tax, and you can drive in bus lanes, and tolls are 0-50% of what normal cars pay

There is no tax on EVs, but a lot of tax on fossils :)

You also get some other incentives but they are in the process of being phased out now.

Just as an example compared to the neighbour country:

The base model Y price in Norway is 534'000 NOK (~52'000€) while in Sweden 719'900 SEK (~70'700€).

For non EV cars it's usually the other way round.

So are people from Sweden or elsewhere buying them in Norway?

No they need to pay taxes when importing so it doesn't quite work that way.

I am in US where gasoline is way too cheap than it should be. I am still going to buy Model Y (or X) simply because it is a great car (fun to drive, over the air updates, autopilot, etc)

I was thinking the same. The Y is a great EV, it is also a $53K+ vehicle.

There's a LOT of people who would happily be driving an EV right now but their last gas guzzler wast less than half that cost. How can Norwegians swing their local equivalent of $53K for any vehicle EV or not?

There has to be more going on here economically/financially.

They actually make car buyers chip in to pay for the negative externalities of burning dinosaur bones.

Here in Indiana I pay an EV tax to make up for lost gas tax revenue, literally the opposite of what should happen.

EVs are heavier than normal cars and you are using the road. So, it is fair to pay the road tax. Assuming the money collected for this directly goes to road maintenance.

I do not have problem with paying taxes that go for roads. Even though in my case I own PHEVs than BEVs. That would be last of my complains.

The effects of climate change are expected to be a lot more expensive than road maintenance, so I think the tax is still the wrong way around.

I would have agreed if EVs had no Carbon footprint.

Heavier part is not significant. The weight effect on road wear is like a 4th order effect. 1 semi-truck causes something like 100,000 the road wear of a single heavy EV. I am fine if we want to tax this route, but disel is now going to cost $300 a gallon for trucks.

If road use taxes on EV's like Indiana's were legitimate then they would be applying them equally to all vehicles and either lowering the fuel excise in response or keeping it there as a carbon tax but since they apply only to EV's they are almost certainly the result of legislators bowing to their fossil fuel lobby donors.

> How can Norwegians swing their local equivalent of $53K for any vehicle EV or not?

Norway is a very rich country - I don't think $53k is a barrier to most people there.

Norway is a very rich country, but I'd also point out that despite their wealth they have substantially fewer cars per capita (~0.5) than the US (~0.8). Less wealthy European countries like Portugal and Lithuania have about as many cars per capita as Norway, likely due to the relatively high prices of cars and fuel in Norway. Basically, if ICE cars and gasoline weren't heavily taxed in Norway, and Norwegians could cheaply drive around in Subaru Outbacks and Toyota Corollas, a lot more of them probably would.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_...

You're right but I think it's a little bit more complex than that. Switzerland is equally wealthy (or even more, if you look at disposable income) and here you can definitely buy a $3000 Subaru Outback and drive around in the Alps every weekend, yet car ownership is similar to Norway's, because it's a hassle when the train and public transportation network is good and convenient.

Maybe without all these taxes, car ownership in Norway would be a bit higher (like in Finland) but I don't think it would reach the US number. Lots of the Norwegian population is concentrated in urbanized areas, and some have gone car-free.

Even though there are few incentives in Switzerland, we see plenty of Teslas, because of course for some people $60k in a car is nothing. But that's definitely above average, and not everyone is able or willing to spend that much.

Public transport in Norway is so good that there is less need for car ownership.

The average salary is close to the equivalent of $55000 and median is a bit over $50000, that helps.

The fossils are also taxed heavily, the Audi Q7 for instance starts at over 1.1 million NOK, the Model Y starts at 550k or so.

In comparison I bought my previous car (Toyota Avensis with 150 hp engine) in 2011 for 400k NOK.

Then you have the fuel costs which is at around 16-18 NOK/liter, which comes out to about $7-8/us gallon and electricity is about 1 NOK/kWh. For an efficient fossil (5 liter/100km) it costs 1.5 NOK/km in fuel costs, the same for an EV is 0.25 NOK/km when charging at home depending on the efficiency. My ioniq costs even less.

I drive a Model X (with a refresh X on order) and a classic ioniq electric myself, buying a new fossil here is just dumb at this point.

I'd also add that public transport in Norway is excellent.

Cars in Norway have always been very expensive, so for Norwegians $40-50k is just what a new entry level car costs. Compared what else you can buy for $50k, the Model Y is bit of a bargain. An 'equivalent' gasoline powered Audi/BMW etc. would cost in excess of $100k.

Cars are very heavily taxed in Norway. The EV's are barely taxed at all. A Tesla Model 3 is close to the cheapest new car you can buy.

EV's pay much less for toll roads. I think it used to be free.

Gasoline is heavily taxed. The price is currently close to 9$/gallon.

It looks like Norwegian fees on imports are pretty crazy, on top of the 25% VAT. All of which is waived for EVs. The import fees seem to be composed of several sub-fees such as HP tax, weight tax, CO2 tax... I can't tell what the number since it varies is but guessing over 50% of the base price on average. If someone offered me a car with a 75% discount you can bet I'd buy it EV or not ;)

Besides the incentives, I think a lot have realized that fossil fueled cars cannot be part of our future.

A lot of Norwegians can charge at home, and with the range of the new generation of EV's the main obstacle has been passed[1].

This makes buying an ICE car a risky prospect, given that future CO2 taxes and such can make gas prices much higher, driving down the resale value.

We live in the city and have a BWM i3, and there's zero chance our next vehicle will be anything but a pure EV.

[1]: https://www.nrk.no/vestland/renate-folgjer-den-grone-straume...

Norway is very gifted with natural resources, especially energy. They can cover their whole eletricity demand by hydropower, but this energy is difficult to export. Not so the oil they produce. So what should they do for maximum profit? Make the locals use electricity instead of fossil fuel by raising fossil fuel tax and providing incentives to purchase EVs. And export all that fossil fuel.

For Norway heavily subsidizing EVs makes sense from a purely economic point of view, no green agenda required.

It can be difficult to export energy, but a way to do it indirectly is to attract lots of energy intensive industry and then export those products.

The classic example is aluminum smelting. Norway has comparable aluminum smelting capacity as much larger countries such as Australia or Brazil.

Maybe I am ignorant, but researching the numbers leads to completely inconsistent results.

* Electrek reports 1115 Model Y (according to registration data) – Where can I find the source?

* Teslerati[1] reports 1115 Model Y with reference to some Tweet

* Electrive[2] report 1308 Model Y with reference to EU EV

* EU EV[3] report 1308 Model Y without reference

* [4] Norway official registration statistics reports 0 Model Y, while the best selling for the Month of August was Ford Mach E with 907

[1] https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-y-dominate-norway-augu...

[2] https://www.electrive.com/2021/09/02/norway-marks-11811-new-...

[3] https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/NO/Brands/Month/2021/8

[4] https://ofv.no/registreringsstatistikk

Sadly this EV push by the Norwegian government is paid by oil drillings in the Arctic [1]

According to another Guardian article [2] this is the list of incentives paid by the Norwegian state if you buy an EV:

- No vehicle purchase tax (a big levy which helps push up the average price for a vehicle in Norway to £43,000-£46,000, compared with an EU average of £26,000-£29,000)

- No VAT – usually 25%

- Zero road tax

- Free parking in some municipal car parks

- Reduced tax on company electric cars (at a lower rate than fossil-fuel vehicles)

- Reduced or free tolls in some areas

- Driving in a bus lane if carrying a passenger

- 50% discount on some car parks, tolls and ferry fares

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/aug/26/norway-p.... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/09/norways-ele...

Leveraging the old model to add momentum to the new model is not sad, at all.

It’s ideal even. Better than riding the old model right off the cliff (Saudi Arabia).

For Norway, that's sure, I agree. For the whole world, I beg to differ. Money talks, as always, so it's not a big surprise at all.

Adding all that up I imnagine the subsidy per car is probably not far off £50k? Seems pretty insane, you could literally do a 'swap your petrol car for a brand new electric one free of charge' for less money.

There are no subsidies, only tax relief.

The Norwegian government does not give money to anyone buying an EV, but since fossils are taxed so high it gives an intensive.

It's the same thing really though. If you don't charge someone a load of tax they would have otherwise paid, it's really a subsidy in a different name.

People would still have to buy cars. They would have paid the registration levy and VAT, now they don't need to. The end result for the treasury is the same whether they didn't get it in at all in the first place (tax relief) or paid it out instead (subisidy).

It's actually a very good thing. Somebody has to pay the early adopter premium to drive down the cost of new green tech. Why not an oil funded group? That's essentially a self-imposed carbon tax.

I'm not sure I understand your stance here. It's not like Norway is continuing drilling for Oil /because/ we need to subsidize these electric cars. The drilling is being done because there's lots of money to be had, and lots of vested interests. I'm fairly certain the subsidies would continue even if drilling stopped this very instant.

Criticizing the Oil drilling is a separate topic entirely. The Norwegian stance on it is divided as well, making it one of the larger feuds in this years election.

So? They're creating a reality where oil would be less needed, what's with achieing it with oil money?

Whilst it's obviously true that Norway is able to afford such actions off the back of hydrocarbon extraction, even the article you linked implies it's not even begun happening in the Arctic yet.

Deadline for concession application was a couple of months back (March) - I doubt there're any rigs in Svalbard yet.

- ed: clarified a detail

Did you know cars only account for about 5% of green house gas emissions?

If you're going to blame Norway for the negative externalities of drilling for oil, are you willing to give credit for the positive externalities, like powering firetrucks and ambulances?

Granted, I'm sure there are probably better uses of Norway's oil money, since EV subsidies only benefit those who can afford to buy a new $50,000 car. They could be doing a lot worse with their wealth though, like building artificial islands.

What are other oil producing countries spending their money on?

It probably helped that the steering wheel in Y isn't a rectangle.

I'm really curious to see S and X sales (and cancellations!) numbers once 2021 models will start to ship en masse. Both come with the yoke and there's no other option.

I was looking at perhaps buying a Model X in the UK, but having that ridiculous yoke forced me is a complete deal-breaker.

Who the hell even thought this was a good idea? It could only have been conceived by someone who has never driven before!

They sold 55 cars more than the second place Volkswagen in August.

No. Volkswagen's EV sales are VW, Audi, Skoda, SEAT, Porsche, Scania, and MAN combined. Volkswagen owns many automotive brands:

https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/brands-and-models.html

would love to see Tesla and Ford drive the return of American carmakers globally. This time electric :)

Globally? I doubt. The cars that they’re marketing are out of reach for 95% of the population for majority of the countries. In India we have EVs at 5% of the cost of a Tesla. From developing country perspective. Majority if the features of tesla are moot, FSd, luxury etc. All we need is an accelerator to step on and a steering wheel to navigate. Infotainment and seating is mostly choice.

For a comparison of price difference look up Tata Nexon EV.

Change doesn't occur marketing and selling to those with no purchasing power. Consumption by the wealthy and the middle class drives adoption, which drives manufacturing efficiencies, which allows for price declines to increase the total available market.

A tesla can’t be afforded even by upper middle class here.

Sure, costs have to be driven down further with scale.

I dont know what you think India’s demographic looks like. But you will rarely even find a middle class person buying a 20k USD car. Majority of the population wouldn’t even go above 10k.

I think India's demographic is very poor compared to the developed world. I believe my top comment communicated this ("Change doesn't occur marketing and selling to those with no purchasing power"). The poor have no purchasing power. EVs may be out of reach to your median Indian for some time. As a rapidly expanding business, you have to go where the revenue and margin is.

Thats not global at all. Hyundai/Kia are more like Global.

Aren't most of those people still driving motorcycles? The Tata Nano was a failure because no one has confidence in Indian domestic brands. The Maharaja class love their Mercedes Benz. The goal should be to replace that desire for Benz with Tesla.

No, that wasn’t the case of failure at all. It was marketed as a poor mans car and no body wanted to be labelled an owner of poor mans car. Plus it had many issues. And no, People who can afford card of Maharaja class is just above may be 2-3% of India, not a global brand if I have to pay 50% import duty on the retail, just to own it. And no one has confidence in domestic brands? I suggest you to do a proper research on that. Tata literally owns Jaguar Land rover(Sold by Ford ironically). Mahindra Thar (Indian equivalent of Jeep rubycon) is the most loved and is emerging here among young buyers.i

India will grow economically. Perhaps in 10 to 20 years more people there will afford to drop 30k-60k for a car.

Personal anecdote: First I (a SE in SV) could not afford Tesla (roadster) and only celebrities could. Then suddenly I can buy one (Model S). And I just came from vacation in my home country (ex soviet republic) amazed by how many of my friends there are buying Model 3s.

We were supposed to be able to afford that since atleast a decade.

In America we too have EVs that are 5% cost of Tesla, we call them Golf-Carts.

Tesla is one of the minimalist cars, any one calling it 'Luxury' has not either sit in a Tesla or sit in a Luxury car.

India today, may not afford the Teslas, but in a decade or so, as one of the few economies projected to grow at a decent clip. Tesla will be at least driven by the rich.

Take a look at TATA Nexon EV. Its no golf cart.

In what world is 13Lakh INR (cost of TATA Nexon EV) which is appx. USD 18K, 5% the cost of Tesla.

You can buy a used BoltEV with that money!

Tesla in India would cost 1.5 crore, it has a 50% import duty on it. Thats 2,05,416 USD. Chevrolet left India after burning itself long ago, so no I cant buy a used blot EV here for that price.

I was in Norway few years ago and all I saw was Tesla Model S and X. I realized the government gives huge incentive to own one, I’m wondering if this has anything to do with it.

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