An app called Libby and the big business of library e-books | Hacker News Reader

An app called Libby and the big business of library e-books

newyorker.com

186 pointssamizdis141 comments

Libby and the bizarre false scarcity model of e-book sharing is the kind of weird crap you end up when you try taking existing laws and paradigms and applying them to the digital landscape.

There is absolutely no reason that a kid should have to wait in a queue to borrow an e-book because the 3 "copies" they have are already in use. If it's about making sure authors are compensated appropriately, then we need to restructure licensing fees so that libraries are paying reasonable per-use licensing fees. But to pretend that there are only a few copies of this book we can borrow is asinine.

I think there's a bigger issue here. Currently the library buy's x copies of an ebook, which they can then distribute out to members. This is the model you're saying is bad.

But the benefit here is that the expense of the book is predetermined and controllable.

If you were to switch to a model where they're pay per use, fundamentally the amount is lower initially. But what happens when a book is incredibly popular and there aren't any limits on who can read that book. Now the library could be on the hook for a large bill that never would've happened had they had more control over the book. Sure, they could set a limit per book on the per use rules, but say they hit that limit in 6 months out of the year, now the book is just unavailable for the remaining 6 months?

I feel like per use complicates things. I hate the current model, too. But I don't think all libraries are super well funded.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that e-books should be "pay per use" when borrowed at the library, any more than you'd institute a "pay per use" model with regular books, DVDs, etc.

I don't know if it disproves your "right mind" argument, but here's Overdrive's CEO explaining the advantages of their new "Cost per Circ" model whereby libraries pay a smaller cost for each checkout rather than purchasing items in advance: https://overdrivesteve.com/pursuing-the-holy-grail-of-librar...

Yes, it could be that 'books' would only be available until they'd been 'borrowed' 100 times, at which point the library would have to buy/license additional 'copies' or patrons just couldn't read it any more. In some ways that seems fine, but there's a sadness to the idea of the library as a repository of knowledge going away, and being replaced by a vending machine.

I think the current "3 copies out at a time" model also has a 100 borrows and then the library has to buy it again. limitation. (The number is probably higher than 100, though.)

Edit: I was wrong, it's lower than 100. From the article:

> In 2011, HarperCollins introduced a new lending model that was capped at twenty-six checkouts, after which a library would need to purchase the book again.

Further proof that the library system is just plain being broken by publishers.

There's a lot of bad shit in this world, but oh boy do I wish some of our country's leaders would solve problems like this. We don't elevate youth or those around us by limiting access to knowledge.

That passage though does provide some more details: "For a classic work, which readers were likely to check out steadily for years to come, a library might purchase a handful of expensive perpetual licenses. With a flashy best-seller, which could be expected to lose steam over time, the library might buy a large number of cheaper licenses that would expire relatively quickly." At least perpetual licenses are an option.

The simple solution is to go to a model where the author is paid per reader or maybe even per page that's read. For someone reason, though, people seem to cling to the idea of "borrowing copies". It worked reasonably well when the copies were on paper, but it doesn't make sense for digital versions.

> The simple solution is to go to a model where the author is paid per reader or maybe even per page that's read.

I think Kindle Unlimited might work this way?

And scams are rampant on the system.

While I agree, there still remains the practical question of who would pay. In the physical book library world, the library pays for a quantity of physical books, and lends them for free to the patrons. They are reimbursed for various fixed costs by existing grants, and taxes, and similar funding streams. The physical scarcity supports this model, by capping costs.

If we remove the scarcity, and pay authors per reader or per page (a good thing, in my opinion) we uncap the expense the library must bear if something becomes popular. One could shift the costs to the users, but then what is the point of the library? The user is just buying an ebook, and we already have markets for that.

The library gives access to books to those who can't afford them. Artificial scarcity sucks, but actually serves a purpose in this context.

> But to pretend that there are only a few copies of this book we can borrow is asinine.

Is it really "borrowing" under the reforms you propose? And to take your argument a step further, why should there be a due date? If your borrowing a book doesn't prevent anyone else from borrowing it, then why should you need to "return" it at an appointed time? Boiled down, your proposal is really just a license to read the book, paid for by the library.

I actually don't mind maintaining the artificial scarcity and pretending that digital assets are like physical assets, because: (1) it's no worse than the system we have in place now with physical books; (2) it doesn't require us to entirely revamp copyright law; and (3) it allows libraries to make the argument that once they buy a digital asset outright, they can "lend" it just as they do with physical books, under a set of principles commonly called Controlled Digital Lending. This is a better option than the status quo, where libraries have to pay highly marked up licensing fees for ebooks.

I'd say the correct analogy is movie rentals.

* In the past, I rented a VHS tape of which there were 3 copies. Now I rent a movie from iTunes, there are infinite copies and I rent the right to watch it (as often as I'd like) within a 48 hour period.

* In the past, I lended a physical book of which there were 3 copies. In my proposal I rent a book from Libby, there are infinite copies and I rent the right to read it (as often as I'd like) within a xyz day period (or I pay per day I lend it, some books take longer to finish than others).

You don’t pay enough in taxes to fund this model — not even a significant fraction of it. If you want to switch to a user-pays-to-rent model, there are iTunes/Netflix-alike options out there — go nuts. But our societies and our literature would be worse off if we all did.

It’s not a pay-to-rent mode they are proposing. They are proposing getting rid of scarcity and allowing folks to borrow for a period of time, as many times as they’d like. An option to keep it longer than the allotted time is akin to a late fee.

In what way would more access to literature make society worse off?

There's near-infinite access to free literature, it's called the internet. Any author who wants to make their work freely available can just put it online.

We (I'm assuming you and I have jobs and aren't independently wealthy or multi millionaires) pay enough taxes, they just arent directed to libraries.

One additional thing I like about scarcity and forcing returns of ebooks is that it forces me to pick it up and read it instead of just grabbing it and forgetting about it.

Nearly every book i'm trying to get from the library has a queue over 10 weeks long. Some are legitimately 18 weeks.

Libby already automatically returns them even if downloaded locally and thats fine.

The user experience has a lot to be desired.

> (2) it doesn't require us to entirely revamp copyright law;

Actually there’s no reason Congress couldn’t just make an exemption to copyright law for libraries in regards to electronic media

I would be okay with applying the existing laws to digital assets if we actually applied the whole thing. The first sale doctrine somehow disappeared with digital assets. The copyright holders gets strictly more rights with digital assets and concedes nothing to make up for it.

It's funny, music piracy is all but dead, whereas book piracy appears to be alive and well. I guarantee you that kid will quickly learn how Googling "<title> pdf ebook" saves them three weeks of waiting. Whereas to listen to a song, they just go on Spotify or YouTube, blissfully unaware of what we had to do back in the day to get songs digitally.

> whereas book piracy appears to be alive and well

Not just alive and well, but monetized by sites like Scribd.

Yes, interesting that book (and audiobook) publishers are further behind the music industry. And then there is movie and tv with it's inane fragmentation.

One subscription for access to ALL the content is the way to beat piracy. Anything else is anti-consumer at this point.

> One subscription for access to ALL the content is the way to beat piracy. Anything else is anti-consumer at this point.

So what do you do when an Amazon Prime membership is required to access most contemporary books?

Or when you have to get several different all-you-can-read memberships to access all the authors you like. Eg. first there was just Netflix, now there is Hulu, Disney+ and Paramount+ as well if you want to see The Handmaid's Tale, Stranger Things, Game of Thrones, Star Trek: whatever, The Expanse, Star Wars & Avengers movies (to name just a few of the most popular and culturally relevant shows and movie franchises).

Whether there is a monopoly or oligopoly doesn't make much difference to consumers, though it does make some difference to content creators.

To make a system like you describe palatable over the long term, you would have to add in structural separation (content owners can't also be distributors) and strictly limit the kind of exclusive licensing deals that are allowed (eg. require statutory licensing of some sort) so new publishers and distributors can't be prevented from entering the market.

I'm guessing that you missed my point. I was saying that the music industry has the right model that is mostly consumer friendly and beats piracy. I can pay Spotify or Apple a single reasonably priced subscription and have access to "all the things." Books, audiobooks, movies and TV are all a fricking mess (as you point out) and it is anti-consumer and promotes piracy.

The music industry doesn't have the right idea (from their POV). They let Apple become dominant (same as publishers let Amazon). The movie and tv industry (which overlaps with music) wasn't going to let Netflix (or Apple, or Amazon) do the same, so we consumers get fragmentation that preserves their profits, and they get to demonize piracy.

Eh, as a kid maybe, but my time is too valuable to waste it going through pages upon pages of scam google results (note: google is the search engine most publishers send takedown requests to, use any other search engine for piracy).

Now, a private tracker, on the other hand...

Disclaimer: Piracy is morally wrong, and if any LEO asks all I've been downloading is 1984.

It's really easy nowadays for most books although, just go to libgen

Also b-ok.org. I think that's why book piracy is so popular, it's super easy. In fact it's easier than buying and dealing with DRM.

I won't get into the ethics or morals of copyright, DMCA, licensing, and so forth. I've held my opinions for decades, and I tire of rehashing them. I'll just share what I've been doing recently. You'll have to Duck for the links.

Calibre is a crazy awesome e-book swiss army knife utility. A user "apprenticeharper" has a "DeDRM_tools" repo on GitHub that includes a Wiki that has a lot of this info. This includes a plugin for Calibre to strip the DRM from books like the ones you get for Amazon Kindle.

When you "check out" an e-book from your library via Amazon Kindle, Amazon will "wrap" the book encryption keys with your own individual account keys. The De_DRM plugin uses your own individual account private key to unwrap the book key that then decrypts the book contents.

The Amazon Kindle PC and Mac apps store your private key to disk. I have Kindle reader version 1.17.0 (44170) installed on Win10, and under "Tools -> General" I have "Automatically install updates when they are available without asking me" unchecked. I found that version of the reader by searching online and downloading a mystery binary. The hash of the binary checked out with hashes I found posted in forums talking about it, so I'm not really that worried about the authenticity of it. If you're really concerned you can run all this in a VM, which probably wouldn't be a bad idea.

So after you "check out" the book via the library, the book will show up in your Amazon Kindle library. You can download it in the Kindle app. At that point the book that's "wrapped" with your account keys will be in a place like "Documents\My Kindle Content" as an .azw file.

After I installed the DeDRM plugin for Calibre I went to "Preferences -> Plugins -> DeDrm (7.2.1) by Apprentice Alf, ...." and double-clicked on it. Then I selected "Kindle for Mac/PC ebooks" and made sure "default_key" was present. Note that you can also "Import Existing Keyfiles," and at one point I had success using a Kindle device key (you have to download an .azw file from Amazon Kindle's web site that's wrapped with your device key for that to work). But the Kindle app is easiest for me.

"default_key" will cause the plugin to look for your on-disk keys in the usual location that the Kindle app drops them in your local filesystem. If you want to see the magic you can restart Calibre in debug mode (under the Preferences menu, or Ctrl+Shift+R). This will drop a log file from the plugin telling you what it's trying to do and why it might have problems finding your account private key.

Once the Calibre with DeDRM plugin is working and accessing my Kindle app account key, I can click-and-drag the .azw file in the "My Kindle Content" into Calibre, and Calibre will strip the DRM and store the e-book file under your "Calibre Library" directory.

You can then use the "Convert books" context menu for the book to export to EPUB or MOBI format. I use EPUB for my Kobo reader and MOBI for my Kindle reader.

Once you have it all set up, the process is pretty quick and straightforward. It takes me just a couple of minutes.

For the occasional Adobe Digital Editions e-book (.acsm file) I simply use the Adobe Digital Editions app to download and then grab the .epub file from the "Documents\My Digital Editions" directory.

For audiobooks, those are distributed as .odm files. I use the "overdrive.sh" script from chbrown's overdrive repo on GitHub to download the audio files, which get distributed without DRM. I wrote another script to combine the audio files into one big audio file because that's more convenient for me to work with. I use the BookPlayer app on my mobile device to listen to them.

I try to do all of this the same day my e-book becomes available for checkout so that I can return the e-book ASAP to help the next person waiting in the queue to get access to it.

Is this more legal than just pulling the book off of libgen? I knew someone in middle school who would rent movies from Redbox, rip them and then take them back, and I didn't understand why he wouldn't just torrent them to save the trip.

Ultimate no trace I suspect

I wonder if anyone does this with the Netflix movies by mail

> There is absolutely no reason that a kid should have to wait in a queue to borrow an e-book because the 3 "copies" they have are already in use.

There definitely is a reason, it keeps the cost fixed for the library. Libraries have a fixed budget, they can't pay per-use because they don't receive income per-use.

I think op is arguing that somewhere libraries should be able to have reasonably fixed budgets and not have this constraint, though more aggressive legislation that weakens publisher's rights. I think it's possible with things like reducing copyright durations entirely to get a healthier public domain offering instead of books written by people whose grandchildren or even great-grandchildren have died of old age still covered by copyright.

I actually just checked and I think there's no infinity copy ebooks on Libby at all; even books that are long since in the public domain have a fixed number of copies to borrow that presumably the library is still paying someone for per-copy.

There are a lot of layers to licensing e-content that you have to navigate to be able to lend ebooks though libraries.

I'm working with a non-profit right now on this problem, working on open source apps to make it easier and more patron friendly for libraries to lend ebooks. The project website is here: https://thepalaceproject.org and our github is here: https://github.com/ThePalaceProject

If there are any talented mobile developers out there that would like to work on this problem, we are looking for iOS and Android developers. The team is 100% remote, and its work that you can feel good about. Drop me a line at: hn@palaceproject.io.

> the bizarre false scarcity model of e-book sharing

The scarcity is in our willingness to pay sufficient taxes to allow the library to purchase more book licenses, and in doing so possibly negotiate bulk discounts.

That is, unless you are arguing that the government should force authors/publishers to sell their e-books at a discount to public libraries. It's not clear why authors/publishers would agree to that.

Strawman argument. The reality is the vast majority of books should already be free to distribute, as the copyright should have expired. Just roll back copyright to 28 years, as it was originally in the US, and let information be free.

I use Libby quite a bit with my local library and it is frustrating. But I’m also amazed that publishers allow it at all.

It’s the closest thing we have to a library and unless we special legislation, I think we’re stuck.

Libby has made it so easy for me to read and listen to books and audiobooks that I'm now able to read 5-7 books a month. The UI is just so great and even discovery of books on the Library page in the app is so nicely done with curated lists etc. One tip if you are a resident of California, a lot of libraries allow you to get a Library card such as LA, San Francisco libraries etc. And Libby allows you to add multiple library cards to the app and it also has this nice feature to search a book or audiobook in one library and then see if it's available at other libraries that you have added. This way I could mostly find a book that I'd like to read rather than waiting for it to be available.

Libby also works with many other libraries around the world and a bunch of them allow signing up for an account online.

For example, Abu Dhabi Department of Culture and Tourism has a nice collection and they only require an Emirates ID which is not too hard to get for visitors. The same is true for other public libraries in the UK. It's probably a good idea to sign up for library memberships wherever you travel!

You don't need any ID or registration for the one in Berlin (voebb.de). Just pay 10€ (not sure if international credit cards are accepted) and you are good to go for a year. Even had a 3 months trial without anything recently. Has a limited English section though.

Perhaps you are thinking of something else, but Emirates Id requires a resident visa, so its definitely not something for tourists!

Yes you're right, getting the Emirates ID depends on the visa type. But, there are lots of expatriates and people visiting for work or school who can get it/already have it. You can also almost always sign up using a passport in person and sometimes online too.

> One tip if you are a resident of California, a lot of libraries allow you to get a Library card such as LA, San Francisco libraries etc.

I've just tried and this is what I got (I live in San Jose): "You must be a resident of Los Angeles to register for a library card."

I have LA library card and I don't live in LA. So here are the details on their page[1]:

How do I get a library card?

"To receive a library card you can fill out an application in person at any Los Angeles Public Library location, or download the application form , fill it out and bring it in to any location, or pre-register over the Internet by visiting the Library's Web Pre-Registration Page. If you only want access to online resources, and are a resident of the City of Los Angeles, you can get an eCard online. Library cards are free for California residents."

[1] https://www.lapl.org/faq/how-do-i-get-library-card

Looks like they allow you to get a library card in person at the library if you're not living in LA. They just don't allow you to get the card online. I got my Card when I visited their main library in LA.

Yep; this is -most- California library systems. A few are more stringent; Beverly Hills' library, for instance, requires proof of residency within LA County, not just anywhere in the state. But all require an in person visit (I got a San Diego card on a trip there a couple years back; will renew when next in San Diego).

Any CA resident can apply but you must be in-person to receive a card if it is not your home library.

I double dip too. My county and city both have Overdrive/Libby.

>And Libby allows you to add multiple library cards to the app and it also has this nice feature to search a book or audiobook in one library and then see if it's available at other libraries that you have added.

That's slow and clumsy. Overdrive.com searches across multiple libraries. (<https://np.reddit.com/r/books/comments/6uxca9/have_more_than...>)

>Libby has made it so easy for me to read and listen to books and audiobooks that I'm now able to read 5-7 books a month.

I use Overdrive.com and not Libby, because I do all my reading on a physical Kindle. Two unexpected things I found after buying it:

1. How easy it is (as an American holder of multiple library cards) to find a book. If I see a book mentioned that sounds interesting, I can

* Go to overdrive.com

* Search across all the libraries I have a card at for the book

* Go to one of the libraries in the list of results

* Either

* borrow the book, or

* if no copy is available, put myself on the hold list, and check another library in the above list

Once I borrow the book, it automatically gets sent to my Kindle. The next time I pick up the device (typically in bed at night), the book and anything else I've sent to it is waiting for me.

2. How easy it is to switch between books. I almost never read an ebook straight through. I am constantly switching between it and other books I also have borrowed. Of course you can do that with physical books, but the lack of friction in switching between ebooks on the same device makes doing so so quick and easy that there's no comparison.

My lord, this is all stupid as hell. Here we are, sitting in a world where every human being could possess every book they could ever want to read, forever, in a $30 device.

And instead, here we are fully nodding our heads in agreement with this completely nonsensical and artificial "borrowing" metaphor. It's utterly ridiculous.

Before anyone goes off on how will writers get paid, please have some imagination. I get books from the library and buy them when they're good. We also have Netflix etc etc. There has got to be a better way.

Agree completely; we are perpetuating a system where rent collection is the norm, where IP "piracy" is fabricated and conflated, and novel creation is disincented.

Would love to see how many sharky middlemen are taking their cut from this type of Overdrive system. Bet it is full of exploitation, and the authors are seeing very little from the wealth transfer anyways.

Our economic system is based on how to distribute scarce resources. We are applying this way of thinking to non-scarce resources.

The consequence is previously unimaginable scale and for the owners/gatekeepers of these resources unimaginable wealth.

You are right, we absolutely have to figure out a better way.

IP has never been a scare resource in one way of thinking (it's always been way cheaper to copy than pay the right holder), but we recognize that we need to incentive the creation of new IP

If it is "stupid as hell" then you're free to propose an idea that is not "stupid." Instead, you tell people to "have imagination."

Feel free to propose a better system, otherwise you just sound angry and judgemental.

- something like netflix

- (more) copyright exceptions for libraries

- bring public universities into the mix, don't allow them to pay for private journals

- Go rogue, find the datahoarder people and give them money

- Individually go rogue. Just pirate all day and tell your friends

But also, don't let my responses detract from your absolutely correct charge. I am angry and I am judging :)

There is software that removes DRM from ebooks. It works on borrowed library ebooks as well. Or so I’m told ;)

> something like Netflix

Isn't that, basically what Overdrive is doing? They license content (just like Netflix does), and then make it available to "subscribers", AKA library patrons? Or are you referring to things like "Kindle Unlimited", which offer a very similar service?

> (more) copyright exceptions for libraries

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The problem, as I see it, is that there needs to be a way to connect the value created to the income of the creators, otherwise the creators can't create.

> Go rogue, find the datahoarder people and give them money

I think the idea of "datahoarder" gets to the core of the disconnect here. You say "datahoarder", while other people say "publishers" and "authors." You're proposing giving them money -- which is exactly what Overdrive does! How is your proposal different?

> Individually go rogue. Just pirate all day and tell your friends

I fail to understand how piracy is a system that can support authors and publishers, who require income in order to produce books. Maybe you can explain this to me? Or are you just being facetious?

The important goal of "widespread knowledge for all" is what matters, and matters an order of magnitude more than "believing in and preserving the particular way we do it now."

So, I don't care if piracy can't do what you mention. That may be a good thing -- I'm especially glad you mentioned publishers, who I'm not certain deserve to exist any longer. I personally don't think they do. Before, they did two useful things; distribution and curation. There was no other way to do that then.

They are absolutely not needed to do those things now, on a fundamental level, so -- evolve or die, I don't much care either way.

It's not anywhere near as stupid as it seems on the surface. It's just a way to do:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination

Basically, allow some people to pay less. One way you can do it is somehow make the product/service less convenient for those paying less so some/most people will pay more.

Libby as a library app is a PITA. The latest update made it somewhat better, but the UI is still horrible. E.g., it has 5 menu buttons at the bottom that you can use to navigate between different parts of the app, _unless_ you press the center one, then the menu vanishes and you have to know that now you have to somehow swipe left, which will dump you in different menu point. You leave book info boxes by swiping down.

My biggest peeve is that I cannot simply look for a book across the different libraries I have access to. I have to select each one individually and repeat the search several times to find out that the book I am looking for is not available.

Finally, I wish there was a simple list where I can store books I am interested in without committing to it. The tag system can be used that way but is unpleasantly wonky. Why not make that a menu button rather than the 'timeline', which gives me an overview of the books I signed up for, loaned, and return dates for, I assume, the past 100 years. Why would I need that information as a top level button?

This sums up exactly my experience as well. Our library used to use Overdrive but switched to Libby (Or maybe Overdrive became Libby?). I can see why, it's nice and fancy looking, but it seems like I can't find my holds every single time for some reason. I constantly open the worthless chat pane.

I believe you can use either. I recently downloaded Libby but I still see my holds in overdrive too.

It's the same company. Libby is a rebranded Overdrive.

Libby and Overdrive are the same thing with different skins. Neither app is good but Overdrive is simpler (IMO) for reserving books and downloading them, so I stuck with Overdrive.

If you've found the book but it isn't available you can search all your other cards by touching the two color card icon on the search result. It then searches for that book across your cards. Not an easily discoverable feature but its amazing when you find it. I only know about it b/c the app's ui choices didn't always make sense so I went through the tutorial hoping it explained something else.

Awesome, thank you!

EDIT: Unfortunately, it only works if you have actually/accidentally searched a library that _does_ have the book. So you still have to switch libraries manually, _until_ you have a lucky hit, _then_ you can check all other libraries with a button.

>If you've found the book but it isn't available you can search all your other cards by touching the two color card icon on the search result. It then searches for that book across your cards.

Amazing! I agree that this is not discoverable at all in the UI the last time I tried Libby.

That said, based on what nautilius said, searching at Overdrive.com is still superior because it properly searches across multiple libraries. (<https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/6uxca9/have_more_tha...>)

If the book isn't found at the library you are on I believe you do have to switch to other libraries until you find it. The most annoying part is when you are entering the title in the search box and it auto-completes the full title but then you issue the search and get back "No results".

I don't disagree that Libby's UX for search/catalog is not great (and I'm with you on searching across libraries, but fwiw I find tags fine), but it's light years ahead of the competition for playback.

I treat audible as a last resort not because I want to avoid amazon or because I'm cheap (although both are true), but because it's so frustrating to use the app to, you know, listen to books.

I use the Library Chrome Extension. If you look up a book on Amazon or some other book search sites it will add a info box about whether libraries that you have added have a book available (or all checked out) and the estimated wait and number of copies. You can add a bunch of libraries. Yes, it should be in the overdrive/libby apps/sites but this is the closest I've found to search many libraries.

>My biggest peeve is that I cannot simply look for a book across the different libraries I have access to. I have to select each one individually and repeat the search several times to find out that the book I am looking for is not available.

Overdrive.com searches across multiple libraries. (<https://np.reddit.com/r/books/comments/6uxca9/have_more_than...>)

> “The point of a library is to preserve, and in order to preserve, a library must own,” Bustillos wrote. When I asked Potash about libraries and their growing digital budgets, he argued that “digital will always be better value,” but he acknowledged that, if current trends continue, “Yes, there is a challenge.”

I'm of two minds about this, because on one hand seeing public libraries give up control and move toward a subscribed model feels wrong, shortsighted, lazy, and a bunch of other bad things. But on the other hand the primary purpose of a public library is not to preserve materials, it's to provide access to them.

These electronic subscription services sure are a handy way to provide access to the most requested materials, so in the short term they're a great option.

But they're a deal with the devil. It's not hard to predict the future here: libraries will become more and more dependent on the subscriptions, which will go up and up in price. Eventually the public library system becomes an inefficient way to redistribute taxes to publishers and distributors.

That's different from today, when, due to the special status libraries have with respect to physical media, they're actually pretty inefficient from the publisher's perspective, but great from the reader's.

The "challenge" will be to get those same protections in place for digital resources before it's too late.

Yes, strictly speaking, an archive or a research library is more likely to be long-term storage than a public library (of course, the division is not clear-cut--and some public libraries have substantial archival research holdings). It's pretty routine for libraries to get rid of materials that aren't being used by anybody anymore. But it does take control over the process, the choice of what to keep and what to give up, away from the libraries to some extent.

> the primary purpose of a public library is not to preserve materials, it's to provide access to them

I worked in public libraries for years and almost nobody understands or believes how true this is.

The main metric that libraries (the ones that I worked in) are assessed by, by the city council members who determine their funding, is "circulation" which is how many materials are loaned out to the public.

We have fixed finite stack space and we get rid of as many books as we acquire each year.

As a result, its in the libraries interest to buy way too many copies of all the latest best sellers and popular new releases, so that there will be plenty of copies available to borrowers right while the interest in them is high. Almost all of those will be weeded out less than a year later when demand drops off.

The circulation numbers are so skewed that maintaining a comprehensive back catalogue is a sort of vanity project, not an imperative.

This will sound naive, but going back to first principles, the real root problem seems to be the lack of a true digital "ownership" option. If libraries had an option to choose between digital ownership, vs digital subscriptions, at least they'd retain some foundational level of control over digital media that they bought and own.

I feel that as an tech/media industry, we either lost our way or just intentionally chose this path, where we have generally wrongly equated ownership with DRM. But a basic definition of ownership includes the "legal right to use, possess, and give away a thing"[1]... being able to give away a digital object (i.e. via copying), is in no way incompatible with ownership. It's just that today's class of rights holders prefer to rent-seek via licensing, but that is not an insurmountable problem (i.e. it's hard to imagine that in a post-scarcity Star Trek future, they'd still be dealing with software/media licensing in the same way that we do today).

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/ownership

> in a post-scarcity Star Trek future

This is also known as "Fully Automated Luxury Space Communism."

I'm just here as a fan of Open Library[1]. More people should know about it.

[1] https://openlibrary.org/

The user experience with Libby is so much better than any other audiobook service I have tried. The app is nice looking and responsive, but also minimal. Bonus points because using their website provides the exact same UI and UX as the app.

Huh, I didn't even realize there was a web version of Libby. I've always just used the normal overdrive website.

The UI is good in some ways but filtering/sorting are extremely clumsy in my opinion. It works perfectly as a reader/player once you have books/audiobooks checked out though.

I fully agree! The libraries of Oslo use Libby for digital non-Norwegian audiobooks, e-books and comics, and the user experience is light years ahead of the one they use for Norwegian content.

I initially didn’t know about the web interface, and was pleasantly surprised to find it has feature parity with the app.

> I initially didn’t know about the web interface, it has feature parity with the app.

The native Libby apps have downloads/offline access and you can dismiss all the ux/window chrome while reading. The web interface doesn’t offer those features.

The web interface is a nice-to-have backup but Libby has discontinued development on their Windows app and keeps redirecting to the web interface which isn’t a suitable full substitute. There are great Windows tablet hardware that paired well with Libby and no other platform quite matches it for comics

If you install the Libby webapp (Edge or Chrome), it works just like a normal program, including showing up in the list of installed programs (start menu). No offline support, although there's no reason Libby couldn't add it using a service worker.

Oh my gosh - the difference between Libby and the previous overdrive dreck is transformational. So slick across different platforms.

Really? Their icons and proprietary design have confused me again and again. For one, they have a library card icon that looks like a battery charging. When the app shows you a checked-out book, there is a checkmark on top of the battery icon. :-)

The audiobook listening tools aren't bad though.

Personally I prefer the other app our library offers, but it's nice to have a choice of different collections.

I just wrote a thread about why I love Libby. https://twitter.com/ketcomp/status/1431401637738917898

1. Low-effort setup for something that will be sparingly used 2. One design for libraries (at least across United States, Canada) - build once, sell forever 3. Skip-the-line loans & nudges as examples of leveraging technology to vastly improve UX.

Someone pointed out the redesign and I think that actually has improved - you can also optionally turn on labels for those buttons on the bottom making it even less confusing. It admittedly was pretty confusing pre-redesign.

Possibly a dumb question, but...is there any good economic (vs legal, cultural, etc) reason why a Spotify-style "streaming service" for books wouldn't work?

That is, you pay an affordable monthly subscription fee in exchange for completely unfettered access to almost every published book, and authors are compensated per book/page/line read, or something like that.

I started using Libby a month ago and have probably read ten books since then. It’s awesome how well integrated it is with Kindle. Having multiple books checked out at once combined with the three week return time is very motivating for me to read instead of just scroll away hours on my phone. It’s addicting.

Integration with Kindle seems to be an option though. In BC libraries (out of Vancouver Public Library, which is its own overdrive subscription), it is disabled, which makes it much less attractive

It's only a US thing. Not a per library thing. Kobo has integration with Overdrive/Libby in a number of countries including Canada and you can even check out a book directly on he device. Android eReader are also a thing. I use a couple Boox devices and just run Libby directly on them.

Important tip for any libby/kindle readers: you can set up Libby to send ebooks to your kindle and read there. Libby is an amazing service and made it fun and easy for me to get back into reading with a kindle because I didn't have to drive to the library for checkout or returns, carry a stack of books around, be super picky with what I read

I now just get ebooks on the high seas as Libby didn't have a lot of books I wanted to read, but if you care about doing things the approved way (so to speak) then Libby is definitely the way to go

Depends on your library though, some have it deactivated. Books I borrow from my work's library can be sent, books I borrow from my local library I can't

It appears to be U.S-only too: https://help.libbyapp.com/en-us/categories/kindle-books.htm?...

Hopefully this changes in future, as I know many people find reading on a Kindle far more pleasant than a phone/tablet.

In Canada, Overdrive integrates with Kobo e-readers instead.

Oh nice, good thing my kindle is reaching its end of life then

One of the arguments advanced in favour of copyright-based compensation is that:

1. Authors must be paid. (Agreed.)

2. That payment must be based on the quantity of work produced and sold. (Disagreed.)

Wage income ultimately provides for both 1) the living costs of workers and their families as well as 2) opportunity risks and costs of production. (Adam Smith's 240+ year old five-factor analysis of components of wage prices remains excellent, cogent, and relevant: https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/Book_...)

Under FDR's New Deal, the Federal Writers Project directly hired and supported numerous American writers, many of whom went on to become classics of the country's literary canon, among them Zora Neale Hurston, Kenneth Rexroth and John Cheever, Saul Bellow, Studs Terkel, Nelson Algren and Richard Wright.

Contrast with Samuel "Mark Twain" Clemens, who found himself blacklisted and unemployable in San Francisco, with a nickel and a revolver to his name. The nickel for if he was unable to come up with money, the revolver for when he had to spend the nickel. Even after achieving literary success, Clemens struggled with money troubles for his entire life, succeeding largely on the support of his father-in-law.

An LA Times article on the FWP:

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/books/story/2020-...

Libby is OK, but the best experience for ebooks is a kindle or other e-reader, calibre, and libgen. Extremely simple and exactly as free.

I use Libby to search/checkout the book from my library and it has a "deliver to kindle" option, where I actually read it. If I checkout an audiobook, I use Libby to listen to it.

you can send a book to kindle from it

Only in America. Nowhere else supports Overdrive and Kindle.

oh man really? Wack!

Newer Kobo devices support Libby/Overdrive, since Rakuten owns both companies. My Kobo is from 2014, so doesn't have that feature.

Rakuten has since sold Overdrive but yeah they do have that feature.

Libby's usefulness skyrocketed during COVID times, when my library started adding the ability to check out digital magazines as well.

Before quarantine, I used to go either to the library or to the Barnes and Noble and pull a couple magazines off the rack to thumb through while having some coffee. Most of those I can just read on my tablet now. You can even tag magazines with a "Notify Me" tag so that you'll get informed when the new monthly of the periodical is available.

Yes the magazine feature "Notify me" is awesome as I can get reminders when new issues of my The Economist, New Yorker and Nat Geo magazines are available to borrow. I found that most of these magazines have unlimited availability so no waiting in line to borrow stuff there. This finally convinced me to not renew my Apple News+ subscription.

Another tip: Some libraries such as LA and Berkeley even have NYTimes pass that you can use to read NYT online for a few days. Once the pass expires, you can just use same link to get another pass (usually the pass lasts for 24 to 72 hours).

> During the past decade, publishers and booksellers have consolidated at a rapid pace

> At the beginning, we were really trying to replicate what happens on the print-book side

> In 2011, HarperCollins introduced a new lending model that was capped at twenty-six checkouts, after which a library would need to purchase the book again. Publishers soon introduced other variations, from two-year licenses to copies that multiple readers could use at one time, which boosted their revenue [...]

Sums it up.

Libby and digital libraries are great, when they have what you want to read. Terrence Wise, Medieval Warfare (1973)? Don't be silly. (Picked it up at a used book store, weirdly.) John Guilmartin, Gunpowder & Galleys: Changing Technology & Mediterranean Warfare at Sea in the 16th Century (2003)? (Managed to order it for a reasonable price from Amazon UK.) Nope. Max Hastings, Operation Pedestal (2020)? None of the library systems I have access to have it. (Audible. Really good, so far.) All of the recent, popular fiction? Sure, although you may have to wait several months to get it.

I get that the library systems are limited by their budgets and have to prioritize what the majority of their patrons want. But back in the depths of last year, everyone was saying, "You can get all the books you want digitally!" No, no you can't.

I was interested in knowing how much commission does libby take for the service it offers?

The article doesn't give the details on "big business" that I was looking for. The only related information was - "The details of the sale were not made public, but Rakuten reported a profit of “about $365.6 million.”"

But Rakuten is a big company with multiple products. And 365 Million is "Not Big Profit" - for the service lending Millions of ebooks to millions of customers for over a year.

I was curious to know, how much libraries pay per ebook. This might have been set prior to libby /overdrive becoming popular.

How much commission does libby take for the service it offers?

I am also assuming that most of the US libraries are funded by state tax dollars, through which they buy books, pay their staff and now pay libby.

"To illustrate the economics of e-book lending, the N.Y.P.L. sent me its January, 2021, figures for “A Promised Land,” the memoir by Barack Obama that had been published a few months earlier by Penguin Random House. At that point, the library system had purchased three hundred and ten perpetual audiobook licenses at ninety-five dollars each, for a total of $29,450 ..."

Amazon lists the audiobook at $40, Barnes&Noble sells an audio cd for $60. Paying a premium of over $40 dollars per license for distribution to end users seems crazy...

The price differentiation is because it's for distribution.

If you think this is crazy (and I don't necessarily disagree) have a look at how stock exchanges' data licensing works.

This is the big issue with SaaS like this, particularly when doing business B2C. Whenever you're providing marginal utility at markup, there will always be a degree of 'bullshit factor' determining how pointless your provision is. If you provide a good service, that factor will be inconsequential, but in the business of e-books it's the elephant in the room. Copying is practically free these days, we should be using that to empower people instead of using it for debilitating them.

Copyright on books should expire after 20 years. And frankly, are any authors really making useful amounts of money off of books they wrote 20 years ago?

Aren't the majority of book copyrights owned by publishers?

All the same, I'd expect the answer to your question is "no". I think authors usually make most of their income from the advance before the book is even written. I'm sure they make some income from royalties, for at least some books, but it probably does drop off by the 20 year mark for most books.

Generally, the copyright is owned by the author but the contract with the publisher gives them so many exclusive rights that they effectively own the work.

Another solution is to simply require registration.

Or a renewal after 20 years. I.e. the copyright holder has to proactively do something to extend it.

> are any authors really making useful amounts of money off of books they wrote 20 years ago?

Yes?

Game Of Thrones is 25 years old.

Foundation. Wheel of time. Lord of the rings. Marvel movies. James Bond. You’re right, lots of other media that drives book sales.

7 habits, win friends and influence people. There’s a decent amount of examples.

Are there any opensource apps that I can connect to San Jose public library? I have some features in mind, like sending a notification asking me to read a certain page at certain time of the day. When I click the link, it should take me to the next open page. Surprisingly no such apps exist so far

I feel like misaligned incentives are the real problem here - what if libraries banded together and paid authors directly for books?

Or maybe we need a publisher more like PBS or BBC with more of a public interest perspective?

Libby is great - lots of audiobooks and ebooks from my local library.

The UE may not be as polished as Audible and Kindle, but still good at what is needed to find books, check them out, and consume them.

I know it’s a silly artificial thing, but I like the time limits on borrowing. It becomes a commitment and the deadline helps me read tons of books in a year.

Libby is really good. Unfortunately the library I was using (Philadelphia) stopped renovating cards for non-residents so I had to go back to piracy

Brooklyn Library has the largest e-book selection I've come across and you can join for $50/year if you don't live in that area. It's a really great value considering the selection and usually decent availability.

They don't allow non US residents anymore, at least they didn't when I last checked

Is it something I can share? I mean I live in a city where I've got access that I don't already use. Shoot me an email if you're interested.

Have you considered just buying a copy? With your own money and supporting the author(s)?

Idk about the GP, but I don't want to buy a hundred books a year (at list price) that I only read once or twice.

The only books that I've "pirated" are ones where I own the physical copy and want to read it on a kindle later on.

I've stashed the article to read later, so maybe they discuss this (but I've seen no indication from the comments).

There are two¹ different models for ebook lending at libraries. With Libby/MediaOnDemand, the library purchases an ebook which will have different limitations based on the publisher. For some it's a fixed time frame, for some a fixed number of checkouts, for some it's unlimited. This is meant to be somewhat equivalent to the purchasing process for books and other physical media where it's expected that the book will have a fixed lifetime after which it is no longer lendable.² The price paid, again depends on the publisher, but is generally more than the consumer price for the book.³

The other model is employed by Hoopla. With their catalog, everything is available for unlimited lending with no waiting (although patrons are usually limited to a fixed number of borrows per month). In this instance, the library pays a fee for each borrow, usually around a dollar, but it can vary depending on the media type and publisher.

Ooh, I just remembered a third model, although I don't know if any of the library ebook services employ it. Kanopy, which offers streaming video services for libraries works on a system where when a patron decides to watch something, if someone else at the library has already watched it, it's free, if they haven't then the library is charged for a full-price purchase of the media (I read somewhere that this is in the $80–100 range). The big drawbacks here are that (a) the cost will be unpredictable and (2) the library will feel tied to the service thanks to sunk costs.

We're still in the early days of figuring out how to make digital media work and balance the needs of libraries and publishers. I like the convenience of being able to borrow anything without waiting with Hoopla although their ereader kind of sucks, and because of the economics, if my library has a book in both Libby and Hoopla, I usually prefer to do the Libby borrow since that money's already spent (plus their reader is better), but it's enough of a toss-up that if the Libby copy is checked out, I'll go with the Hoopla one.

———

1. At least two. But these are the ones I'm most familiar with.

2. If you ever visit the picture book section of your local public library you will see this limited lifetime exhibited in dramatic fashion.

3. For legal reasons, your library does not purchase it's paper books, DVDs, CDs, etc. at the corner bookstore or Amazon, but through special purchasing agreements that, again, depending on the publisher, will result in the publisher being paid more than they might otherwise get. My first experience of this was when I was publishing a magazine. Library subscriptions almost always came through a service which paid me the full annual subscription price, and then turned around and charged an additional fee to the library. I believe that something similar happens with books where the library pays the service cover price plus X and the publisher receives the full cover price, but I'm willing to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable than me spouting off in a footnote.

>This is meant to be somewhat equivalent to the purchasing process for books and other physical media where it's expected that the book will have a fixed lifetime after which it is no longer lendable.

I wish the people who say, in this thread and everywhere else library ebook lending is discussed, "Why aren't all ebooks always available to an unlimited number of borrowers?" Publishers can reasonably expect that any physical book will, sooner or later, need replacing. An ebook won't.

There is a good debate to be had on whether the Overdrive or Hoopla or some other lending model is more appropriate for ebooks, but that's orthogonal to the above. People need to have a grasp of the basics before discussing anything more detailed.

What exactly is the point of a library in this case? Why doesn't this Overdrive company simply have a direct-to-consumer site with some kind of payment scheme?

One thing that's going to have to change is the cost of ebooks. Amazon pricing is insane and I can't say that artificially scarce check-outs is a more logical solution.

My main bet is that the IP enforcement apparatus gets stronger and stronger. Now is the time to grab everything you can from whatever source. youtube-dl, libgen, sci-hub, the-eye, even the currently legal things like gutenberg and archive.org...I'm working to go essentially offline on media sources.

Anyone know of any way to download regular backups of books on LibGen?

I don't know if I understood your question fully, but this is a guide on how to backup libgen: https://www.reddit.com/r/libgen/comments/6rr71h/for_those_wh...

You can adapt it to run partially only for the things you want, if that is the case. Hope it helps

>> What exactly is the point of a library in this case? Why doesn't this Overdrive company simply have a direct-to-consumer site with some kind of payment scheme?

The direct to consumer model already exists. Amazon Kindle provides this very well on a per book level via Kindle [a la carte] (and also for large groups of books via Kindle Unlimited.) There are also numerous site-licensed services which give total access to books for a time period for pay -- I used it in grad school. I also subscribe to OReilly Safari and love it.

The OverDrive/Libby model exists because it is free to the end user -- the public library is verifying you are a local resident and then using local tax dollars to fund the free service to residents.

I found Kindle Unlimited to be very like browsing the lower reaches of Netflix or Amazon Prime Video. I had good luck with post-apocalyptic zombie fiction, but nothing much else.

>The direct to consumer model already exists.

Which doesn't imply that more aren't needed or possible.

Why couldn't overdrive simply cut a deal where a group of people (a school, a county, a company with benefits) is allowed to 'check out' a copy. Archive.org has that sort of concept for individuals of course (for free). I don't see any value added by getting the library involved (which are mostly just free internet, warming/cooling centers and bathrooms for the homeless, a source of self-help books and romance novels for a tiny section of an ageing population).

To be fair, the feature creep in public libraries is important to keep the iron rice bowl full. It would be more honest to put together a local 'activity center' that happens to have a few books.

>> Why couldn't overdrive simply cut a deal where a group of people (a school, a county, a company with benefits) is allowed to 'check out' a copy.

That is literally what they did. In the US, most public libraries are at the county level (though some at the township level or city level (e.g NYPL).) The library is serving to validate residency in the county and to segment county funding from tax dollars to the private service. The rest of the service is between the end reader and Overdrive. Even the catalog appears to be a whitelabel service atop Overdrive's APIs. The Library checked-out list likely reflects an API call on Overdrive -- there is no way a county library has the sophistication to build this out.

Similarly, my employer used to pay for the OReilly Safari service which is very similar, except from corporate coffers.

Similarly, my University used to pay for a textbook service, this time from University coffers.

NYPL is a private nonprofit.

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