Apple Watch production delayed as engineers wrestle with quality issues | Hacker News Reader

Apple Watch production delayed as engineers wrestle with quality issues

asia.nikkei.com

142 pointsgmays118 comments

Hmm, some of the details of this story doesn't seem to agree with most Apple-watchers (as in people who try to figure out what the new features on the new products will be).

For example, the story mentions the addition of blood pressure sensors as a reason for the issues:

> The next Apple Watch will come with new features such as blood pressure measurement, they said, which means production involves fitting a greater number of components into a similar size body.

Mark Gurman of Bloomberg says there is "no chance" [0] that the Apple Watch 7 will have blood pressure sensors. He points to his story with Debby Wu [1] instead:

> The new watches also have screen technology that brings that display closer to the cover glass using a different lamination technique, Bloomberg previously reported. That display layer may be causing some of the production woes, the person said.

It's probably a combination of larger watch sizes, new techniques/technologies, the usual upgrades, COUPLED with covid-related disruptions that are causing the delays!

---------------------------

0: https://twitter.com/markgurman/status/1432798940676730886

1: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-31/apple-s-n...

The article also says that the watch has a complete redesign, which as we know is rumoured to occur this year? So that adds more confusion.

>some of the details of this story doesn't seem to agree with most Apple-watchers

This is Nikkei, they have an exceptionally poor track record on anything Apple, as a matter of fact I cant even remember single decent signal coming from them. They are even worst than Digitimes.

Basically a few years ago every single news media saw Apple headline drive click rate, and they decide to join the rumour race. And you mention Mark Gurman of Bloomberg, but before ~2015/2016 he was at 9to5mac.

> This is Nikkei, they have an exceptionally poor track record on anything Apple, as a matter of fact I cant even remember single decent signal coming from them. They are even worst than Digitimes.

> worse than Digitimes

What's wrong with digitimes?

My own guess though is that manufacturing in Vietnam not working out for them.

> What's wrong with digitimes?

They publish pretty much any rumor that comes to them with close to 0 verification. Hard to trust anything when they are the root source.

And not just on Apple btw, on anything IT.

Nikkei weaponizes headlines. Not a tabloid but highly politicized. They run "weather balloon" articles and partially fabricated leaks all the time.

And they own the Financial Times now too.

The new Samsung Watch 4 can measure blood pressure, but only after calibration with another device.

I wonder what the accuracy of that is vs on-wrist measurement of something like SpO2. If it’s anything like the latter then it’s essentially nothing more than a worthless gimmick.

I had an samsung active watch. It took them over a year to roll out blood pressure and only worked in conjunction with a samsung phone(although the functionality itself had nothing to do with the phone).

It was decently accurate at reproducing results that were close to the calibration device. I do remember people complaining that it was only accurate when the BP was close to what you calibrated it to though. Say for example you measure in rest and then you try to measure during heavy exercise the heavy exercise measurement was off.

So basically another gimmick like SpO2 then.

Re potential features such as blood pressure, there's an ArsTechnica article [1] today that might be useful - if you like Ars, that is.

Headline and sub-head read:

> Report: Big new health features are coming to the Apple Watch—just not this year

> Temperature and blood glucose tracking could arrive as soon as 2022.

Ars refers to the conflicting analyst reports in its intro:

Analysts and reporters have published conflicting reports about what to expect from the next Apple Watch. Some, like Nikkei, claimed it will have new health sensors, but others like Bloomberg's Mark Gurman have said that this year's model will offer no major new hardware features amidst production constraints.

[1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/09/report-big-new-healt...

nice find! No real opinion on Ars, though Nikkei is probably towards the bottom of trustworthiness for this kind of stuff

> It's probably a combination of larger watch sizes, new techniques/technologies, the usual upgrades, COUPLED with covid-related disruptions that are causing the delays!

I believe the explanation is much simpler, and it is they havent't yet finished moving manufacturing to Foxconn's Vietnam factory

If you use your watch for just athletic stuff and getting push notifications, Garmin watches like the Venu are a much better piece of hardware and software. The battery last for days, the app on the phone is better, the tracking is better, the sensor integration (Ant+) is better, and there are entire ecosystems that revolve around the Garmin/Strava combo.

IF you are looking for more of a SOAW (Smartphone On a Wrist), I think iWatch is probably the best thing on the market.

I still don't understand how a watch with declared battery life of 18 hours is considered acceptable, or even supposed to exist in 2021. Any competitor offers at least 5x of such an essential parameter for a wearable.

Necessary edit: don't get me wrong, I understand how useful or good it can be feature-wise, but this is still a huge dealbreaker.

I think because most people don’t need it more than 18 hours per day? If you’re taking it off at night, you might as well drop it on the charger.

Especially when I'm traveling (normally), an additional thing to charge is just more overhead. I have an older Apple Watch and I just don't use it very much. When I do, it's for hikes and, barring major upgrades, I probably won't upgrade and may get a new Garmin at some point.

You may be using it for more than 18 hours per day if you're trying to sleep track

Fortunately it doesn't take 6 hours to charge! I'm still not sure where the 18 hour number comes from, I use mine for close to 24 reliably. About 1 hour charging every morning while I'm at my desk not doing much physically anyways is all it takes. Before the WFH times I'd charge it in the morning after it woke me up and maybe in the evening if the charge was below 30% so I'd be certain it would get through the night.

In that case you could probably get away with just charging it for a bit in the evening and a top up in the morning while you get ready and be able to wear it basically all day. It's supposedly 90 minutes to 80% from zero and that should get you to the evening where it'd be good to unplug and unwind for a little bit anyways.

Actually one of the best features of the apple watch is that it can wake me silently (so as not to wake my spouse) and I can adjust my alarm schedule on my phone (without digging through tiny menus, which are even worse on a Garmin).

So I have developed a habit of taking off my apple watch when I sit at my desk. By the first time I think to look at my wrist, it's charged.

I put it in sleep mode all night, and wake up with plenty of battery anyway.

It takes about an hour to charge, so I just schedule the same time every day to charge it (after I get home from work, while I eat dinner).

Sure it's one more thing to manage, but having it wake me up with vibrate every morning is worth the small hassle.

Usually people charge them during showers. It charges quite quickly. The watch part is additional as funny as it sounds.

Yes, but the Apple Watch will compile the Linux kernel twice as fast as those other watches.

Seriously though, my Apple Watch is definitely the one device that runs out of battery the most in my life. I would love more battery life, so long as it doesn’t compromise any of the functionality or design. But there’s the rub.

I've recently been wondering if it would be technically feasible to make one of those more traditional metal watchbands, where the metal elements would be Li-Batteries. Perhaps too small though.

I think the tricky part would be the linkages where you'd need an electrical connection. Making that robust enough to be in the band but not too bulky would be a serious challenge. You'd also lose the big variety of bands and the sweet profit margins that they bring.

I don't know if there's been a regression since the series4, but my Apple watch easily lasts 30-36h (maybe I'm just too sedentary these days with WFH + occasional ride).

Even on busy weekends where I'm out all day with multiple "workouts" it usually lasts the day fine.

I felt that a battery that lasts one day is better than one that lasts something like 6 days. It is easy enough to remember to charge at night. Yes, one can’t use sleep features, but I am ok with that.

When you are in apple ecosystem, unlock phone with watch, unlock Mac with watch, accept Okta verify (2FA) on watch without an unlock, etc are life changing things for me.

What sucks is that I can’t gift it an Android/PC person without replacing thousands worth of everything else.

I have a Garmin watch and I just charge it while I'm taking a shower. Easy to remember, and I've had it for a few years and it's never run out of battery.

Yes but what if you take a shower every days ?

That's what I do with my Apple Watch, too. I wear it 24x7 excepting my daily shower.

The amount of coping is strong in this post.

Can you name those competitors? For example a Samsung Galaxy Watch 4 lasts a day or a bit more. Nowhere near the 90 hours mark.

Garmin can easily last a week or two.

Sure but how many of those are actually comptition for Samsung Galaxy watches or Apple Watches? I have a Fenix 5 but wouldn't consider that to be competition for an Apple watch due to the terrible display and lack of apps. Easy to get a weeks worth of battery if the device doesn't run anything.

Competitor as a fitness watch? Definitely. For my use case neither galaxy watch or apple watch clarify as a anything but a glorified kid toy.

I use the Garmin solar instinct. It lasts 30-40 days on a charge. If it doesn't get any sun (winter months), its ~22 days on a charge.

Sure but how is that a competitor for an apple watch? At least a competitor to me would have to be able to run the equivalent of Fantastical and Omnifocus.

> Sure but how is that a competitor for an apple watch?

Hopefully you understand that watches can still be competitors in the smartwatch space even if they don't have feature parity?

Absolutely, though in terms of battery life I find it quite odd to compare a barebone watch like the Garmin to apple or samsung watches. I am not surprised that a casio watch has a better battery life either.

Pebble Time Steel can last up to 12 days, with the screen always on.

Pebble is so good that I still keep 2 extra ones in their unopened boxes, for the day my current one fails.

I love the features, and I charge it every night (with 50% spare as well).

I don't understand why I need to wear my watch 24 hours a day. I wake up, put it on and wear it until I go to bed. While it is charging it is my nightstand clock.

Other than the nightstand clock thing, this is how I wear my "real" watches too.

Because sleep tracking and an alarm that doesn’t disturb your partner are two of the best features.

I have a different sleep tracker and me and my partner use a wake light, so I don't find these things relevant to my use case. A quick poll of my friends is similar, although one uses the sleep tracker and charges while getting ready in the morning.

The Garmin watches have Pulse Oximeters in them that tell your your 02 saturation while you sleep, breaths per minutes, and use that data to calculate all sorts of metrics for you.

I haven't found the battery life to be an issue. Part of that is how quick the Apple Watch is to charge. I throw it on the charger when I wake up, and it's charged by the time I get out of the shower.

Exactly this. At some point I stopped being a nightly charger for all my Apple devices and find more convenient times to charge. Sort of lazy, but I would rather have my phone within reach while I'm sleeping and plug it in when I can't use it (shower, out running with my watch). Same goes with the Watch. More useful to be with me while sleeping.

This. Getting something like the Belkin 3-in-1 Wireless Charger with MagSafe at work has been a lifesaver. I get to work, throw on my phone, watch, and AirPods, and within an hour everything's charged back up. Having a few charging pucks around the house also helps.

I like wearing my watch at night for sleep tracking, and the longer it's on my wrist, the more data it's capturing, which my hope is that in the years to come, can be harnessed for improving my health, somehow.

The 18 hour battery life is the price you pay for at least 5x the functionality of competitors with better battery life (somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but you do realize the reason other wearables can get away with much longer battery lives is that they are capable of far less).

If you JUST want a pedometer, heart rate and sleep monitor that syncs with Apple Health and can also send push notifications when in Bluetooth range of your phone... then the going price on Amazon right now is around $30-35. For something that looks nearly identical to an Apple Watch, and has a battery life of 7-10 days. And for which you can find non-proprietary metal or leather replacement bands for ten to twenty bucks.

It's insane at this point. I resisted getting a smartwatch for years, because I like the aesthetics of traditional analog watches, and did not want to charge a battery every day or two. Especially when the cheaper options a few years ago often required you to disassemble the band to reveal a USB male plug for charging, instead of just attaching a magnet to the back.

But for "starter" smartwatches, prices have fallen and quality risen to the point now where you can try one out as a next-to-free impulse purchase, and just shrug and move on if it's not for you.

Now I'm hooked on it. I don't so much care about push notifications for calls and emails, etc (i.e. my phone is already right there). But it's pushed me to walk about twice as many steps per day as I used to, and get about an hour more sleep per night. I've lost over 20 pounds since buying mine six months ago, from no conscious lifestyle changes beyond that. Plus the aesthetics have grown on me, so I don't think I'll ever be going back. On the other hand, I wouldn't even consider "upgrading" to a true Apple Watch until their battery life improves 5-10x.

Battery life hasn't been an issue for me on the Series 5. I put it on when I wake up at 7am and when I go to bed around 10:30 I usually have about 40% battery life left. I don't sleep with mine on, so it charges at night, but even if you did you could probably get by on charging it for about an hour a day. My wife plops hers on the charger when we watch TV in the evening.

The one nice thing I've enjoyed on this version is I went with the one with cell service. I haven't used it a ton, but it -is- nice to be able to leave your phone at home. I wouldn't intentionally make or accept calls on it, but having kids you always want to be reachable so in the case of an emergency it works fantastic.

It's a good way to force yourself to disconnect from work email and social media for a bit, but still be reachable. Leave the phone at home, and just wear the watch. You can still take a call or reply to a text from the wife in a pinch, but doing email or checking twitter/Facebook/hacker news isn't an option.

I try and do this now when I go out with the kids to the park so I'm not tempted to be buried in my phone.

I put on my $30 watch on Monday, and usually have 30-40% the following Monday when I put it on the charger again for an hour. I’ve developed the habit of charging it during a weekly meeting Zoom call that I have at work.

If you really want a “smartwatch on your wrist”, because you’ve wired up all your home appliances into Apple’s ecosystem or some use case like that, then great. A smartphone’s battery life may be acceptable.

But if your use case includes, “track my heart rate 24 hours a day, my overnight sleeping patterns, and be an alarm clock and practical timepiece”, then paying hundreds of dollars for 18-36 hours of battery doesn’t really make a lot sense against the other options available now.

> But if your use case includes, “track my heart rate 24 hours a day, my overnight sleeping patterns, and be an alarm clock and practical timepiece”,

That's how I use my Apple Watch. But I don't leave it on for a week straight, I take it off and charge it when I hop in the shower. I haven't found a use case for the shower yet, but it could happen.

The other thing I didn't mention in my original post is Garmin watches are _meant_ to be used disconnected from the phone and internet, whereas the designers of the iWatch and Android watches assume you universally have a cell signal.

Retaining nearly all of your capabilities is a huge selling point for me since I spent an enormous amount of time away from cell towers and wifi in the outdoors.

This is strange to me: We’re likely less than two weeks out from this device being announced alongside the new iPhones. How can “small-scale” production only be beginning now?

I think the reporting is confusing issues with 2022’s Apple Watch & the upcoming 2021 edition.

If this report is true, Apple will delay the announcement. They're not going to pull an AirPower with a product as important as the Watch.

Why not? They do it with their Macbook all the time

When they announce that a Mac will be released in a month, that's because it's already in volume production and they know there are no manufacturing problems. If the manufacturing is still being worked on and they can't know when it will be ready then it isn't safe to announce the product.

> and they know there are no manufacturing problems

There are always manufacturing problems, and new, even significant ones, are discovered all the time.

They might delay the announcement, but at some point the cost of further delays will grow beyond their projections of what shipping a first batch of faulty products will cost them in repairs/replacements/legal fees.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/382260/segments-share-re...

Mac revenue is somewhat small and stagnant while wearables revenue is growing and it's probably their future.

They can announce mid September and release in October. Maybe the rumor is surfacing now but the production issue happened weeks ago.

I wouldn't be so sure, the device is being announced in two weeks but it is unlikely that we will be able to buy it straight away.

We might find that the release date for purchase is some time away.

Edit: Actually the article refers to blood glucose monitoring, which points so it being the 2022 model. However, the article does say there is a complete resign, which is also rumoured for this year model. Who know.

If the Apple TV 4K is any indication, there's at least a month lag between announcement and shipments.

Even with a month’s lag products would already be in mass production, it regularly takes over a month just to ship goods from China to the US & Europe. Lead time on a new production line can easily run from six months to over a year depending on complexity.

If they’re still having problems with the production lines they’re not going to be shipping to customers in a little over a month, short of using air freight to get goods across, and that would make a substantial dent in profit margins at scale.

Apple does fly a lot of their products out of China so it doesn't take a month.

Yup. Last year I bought Apple Watch and it left China in next day.

> short of using air freight to get goods across

Most iPhones and Apple Watches I’ve ever purchased on launch day ship via air from China to a FedEx hub somewhere in CONUS, then on to me. Takes about 3 days…

Blood glucose monitoring is defined going to be interesting to watch. I wonder if they're planning on doing it in a similar way to supersapiens.

There's no way Apple would design any device which would, I quote, "insert a thin, sterile filament into the skin" to draw interstitial fluid. The Abbott sensor is designed to be worn for weeks on end.

How else are they going to monitor blood glucose? Finger prick tests?

They could miniaturize a specialized spectrometer of some sort I suppose. I don't know. If I knew, I'd be doing it now - that's quite literally tens of billions of dollars that people would throw at you faster than you'd be able to catch it.

E.g. https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/104/1/0...

Yeah, that’d be a very rewarding problem to solve.

'January 2017 at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, the company unveiled the Changhong H2 with NIR spectrometer', not sure if this was ever released, but suggests miniature spectrometry is a thing...

The rumor (based on acquisitions Apple has made) is that it will be based on sweat, using sensors built into new watch bands.

I read that it would be stricly optical:

https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/07/14/apple-supplier-la...

"Rockley Photonics says that its system uses infrared spectrophotometers to detect and monitor a wider range of health issue than the green LED systems in most wrist devices."

I also remember paging through this fascinating investor presentation document from Rockley:

https://rockleyphotonics.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Rock...

HN discussion from a few months ago on this specific topic:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27030689

Looking at Rockley stuff in particular makes me hopeful this could be solved, if it's solvable with spectrophotometry at all. I'd even be OK with something larger, perhaps ankle-worn, as long as I don't have to puncture my skin at all.

You know how expensive it is currently. Even if it is not perfect just a few mouth recover the costs for health style user. ( not group 1 please )

mentioning the blood pressure sensors is probably a sign that this isn't the 2021 Apple Watch

The article also says that the watch has a complete redesign, which as we know is rumoured to occur this year? So that adds more confusion.

Are Apple Watch engineers doing better or worse than they would otherwise by being remote? Genuinely curious.

Working remote from Cupertino or remote from China? Travel/Quarantine restrictions in China might actually be a bigger factor. Who can forget the infamous Tim Cook anecdote [1] about Apple resolving problems in Asia:

> One day back then, he convened a meeting with his team, and the discussion turned to a particular problem in Asia. "This is really bad," Cook told the group. "Someone should be in China driving this." Thirty minutes into that meeting Cook looked at Sabih Khan, a key operations executive, and abruptly asked, without a trace of emotion, "Why are you still here?" Khan, who remains one of Cook's top lieutenants to this day, immediately stood up, drove to San Francisco International Airport, and, without a change of clothes, booked a flight to China with no return date, according to people familiar with the episode.

[1]https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-promotes-sabih-khan-sv...

I find this to be encouraging. I like that Apple is continuing to push the envelope and that means engineers should be wrestling with difficult problems. Delays happen, but better than releasing a dud like that terrible keyboard design a few years ago.

I wonder how many engineers quit because of the client-side CSAM scanning, and whether it delays things at Apple.

I know one Apple employee (albeit not an engineer) who already quit, and another two who started looking for other jobs.

Apple has likely been doing server side scanning for years.

So if they want to quit because now it’s client side to improve privacy then good luck to them.

I just don't see any appeal in a smart watch, I already have my phone pinging me all the time wanting my attention why would I want a second source of that as a wearable. The only thing I can think of is health monitoring / fitness and I would rather have a Garmin there where the sensors are far better.

Same here. I got a Garmin watch several months ago, and so many people have asked "why didn't you just get an apple watch?" Then I have to give them my whole spiel about hating the constant distractions and oh by the way, have you ever tried turning off notifications on your phone...

> have you ever tried turning off notifications on your phone...

Yes. I have them turned off. Could you please expand on what you mean there? Thank you.

> Then I have to give them my whole spiel about hating the constant distractions and oh by the way, have you ever tried turning off notifications on your phone

oh by the way, have you ever tried turning off notifications on your watch? It's as easy as on your phone.

Have had an Apple Watch since 2015. Took me about 30 seconds to permanently disable all unwanted sounds and notifications then, when I first got one. It's been six years now. They're all still disabled.

So frankly? This isn't a real issue.

Garmin make great fitness watches but they’re not a replacement for an Apple watch if someone is looking for a smart watch.

The multiple days-long battery life sure is nice though.

What are the capabilities of the Apple Watch beyond Garmin Vivoactive? Especially for people not already in the Apple ecosystem

Better smartwatch features, generally. So stuff like support for contactless payment, phone unlocking, etc.

Both of those work with the Vivoactive 4.

Garmin Pay has very poor support in the UK. I bank with Barclays and that's still not supported.

It’s not a second source, it becomes the only source as it turns off your phone notifications. It also leads in shorter distractions as you can quickly check if a message is important without pulling out and unlocking your phone.

It also does a billion “nice to have” things like card payments which work with your mask on, walking directions with convenient and easy to read arrows, and so much more.

It’s certainly not essential but I have worn mine every single day as it certainly provides value.

That's what I thought when it came out initially, but after the series 4 release, I decided to get one, and I use it many many times a day:

* Apple Pay on the watch is the fastest way to pay on any NFC enabled POS; now works on Caltrain as well. * Silent haptic alarm, which doesn't wake up your partner * Passwordless macbook unlock * Automatic phone unlock when using a facemask * Overnight HR measurement, if you want to track how overtrained/rested you are * I use it to open my front door and garage door via siri when coming back from a bike ride or run (I don't need to carry my phone for this). I don't carry keys with me. * Listen to music/podcast while on a run without my phone. * Control media without taking out my phone. * Vectorized maps and gps tracking for running/cycling and uploading to strava (workoutdoors app) * Strava app * Interval timers when at the gym * Easy continuous visibility of air-quality/UV/temp-range/hours-of-sunlight-remaining on my main watch face. Useful information when planning outdoor exercise. * I occasionally do high altitude climbs, and hikes, so I'm looking forward to upgrading to a newer model with continuous elevation readouts and SpO2 readings. * Use it to ping my lost phone * Flashlight when you're in a bind * Navigation while cycling * Pick up calls when you're hands are full and you're phone isn't nearby.

etc etc etc

Also, a quick way to check the time.

That’s a bit tongue in cheek. Then again, I didn’t wear watches before; time alone didn’t seem a good enough reason. But that, combined with other benefits, works for me.

In the first months after starting to wear a watch (smart Apple or any other kind, really), I kept forgetting that it also tells the time. The habit of looking up the time on the phone was so deeply ingrained, if I tried to find out the time while in a bit of autopilot mode, I'd always reach for the phone, instead of looking at the wrist.

Yep. I didn't think I needed the always on screen, but once I upgraded checking the time is something I do all the...time.

Add to this - it's a more convenient approve button for my 2FA app, and Audible app.

> I occasionally do high altitude climbs, and hikes, so I'm looking forward to upgrading to a newer model with continuous elevation readouts and SpO2 readings.

I also use it for this reason, but I've found that these activities can often be much longer than my the battery can last on my S6 in airplane mode with an activity running (~6 hours).

For this reason I'm considering a watch with better battery life built for this purpose such as Garmin or Coros. The recently announced Coros Vertix 2 has a mind-blowing 140 hours battery life with full GPS tracking [1].

I don't foresee Apple reaching this level of battery performance anytime soon, specifically because of the other reasons you list why the Apple Watch is useful. I wonder if we'll see a trend of people owning multiple wearables for specific reasons, with the Apple Watch being a daily driver.

- [1]: https://mobile.coros.com/vertix2/

I've been watching videos of the watch recently because I'm considering getting one, seems the overall improvement besides its use for fitness it's not needing to reach out for your phone as often as you'd do without the watch to check notifications etc. which could lead to distractions (e.g. I might as well check Instagram now since I unlocked the phone already).

So it helps reducing the use of the phone which also gives you more battery for it, the worse thing of the watch though is battery life which I hope the 2021 model improves upon.

> it's not needing to reach out for your phone as often as you'd do without the watch to check notifications etc

I bought my first AW for the fitness aspects, but the above has become just as important. I'm not in a position where I can turn off all notifications, but I can glance at my AW mid conversation when I get a notification w/o missing a beat. If it's something I need to handle, I can excuse myself. Otherwise, it is way less of an interruption.

If you are only interested a device that can display the time, you may want to check out one of these bad boys. No charging required for seven years.

https://www.casio-europe.com/de/produkte/uhren/vintage/a168w...

When properly integrated with your phone, the smart watch is not a "second source" of notifications, it's the "primary source", and, being on your wrist, it's easier to check/dismiss those notifications.

Cool. Any thoughts on the Apple Watch production being delayed as engineers wrestle with quality issues?

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