The sad thing is that they're still better than everything else out there. Which says a lot about the laptop industry in general.
I've got a zenbook 14, and it's tough of nails. Have dropped it so many times on hard surfaces and it's still trucking along.
Over the past few years, I've owned an Asus laptop (thin/light), two Lenovo laptops, and an HP. Before that, a large Dell gaming laptop.
Most recently, I had bought the HP Omen 15, but realizing that the screen used PWM below 100% brightness, I sold it and bought a Lenovo Legion 5.
The previous Lenovo is a Y540. The Y540 is arguably "good but not great" build quality. If you squint, it looks kind of like there could be a slight curve to the bottom of the monitor where the two side hinges support it.
The Legion 5 is really well built. No unusual give, very smooth running fans, etc. It's also been super reliable, better than expected battery - really nothing to complain about.
Now I imagine if you spend $2-3k on laptops, you probably think these $1k laptops are garbage quality, but they seem better than the HP Omen 15, and certainly better than the Asus and the $1700 Dell I bought 8 years ago.
Isn't that the normal way to dim an LED? Was the frequency too low, or what was the issue?
I know the Legion 5 is good, which is why I (foolishly) thought the Legion 7 would also be good. It's the inconsistency within and across their product lines, and their god-awful depot support, that's made it a game of Russian Roulette to buy a Lenovo device — some people still swear by them because they either luck into, or do the deep research to find, the very specific models within certain lines that aren't failure-prone.
The 720 and Legion 7 failed within weeks, not months, and the 720 went to the depot twice and had at least one repeat or new failure within weeks after returning each time.
The P40 broke my heart the worst, though, because it had every feature I wanted and I paid through the nose for it thinking it'd be a 5-year device, minimum. It didn't make it to 2, couldn't get a refund, and didn't have the heart to sell it even for parts.
The 720 and Legion, though, failed so quickly that I got refunds from their retailers; I couldn't possibly resell them, and with the Legion 7 in particular I wasn't going to gamble with their depot service rejecting warranty coverage for the fault as people were reporting on Lenovo's own forums, and especially after the touch digitizer failed after the _second_ depot service for the 720.
This list consists of companies that I will never, ever do business again. No matter what, period.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfish#Lenovo_security_inci...
Microsoft Oracle Facebook Exxon McDonalds CocaCola Monsanto
This is part of why people feel almost stuck with Apple. Their hardware is a lot better than most of the competition, though it comes with a price premium, and while there are privacy concerns they are less than with these shitware-loaded machines. You can also install Linux on them if you really want no telemetry at all, even with M1 Macs.
That really only applies to the consumer line. The thinkpad line is still pretty solid.
Meh. The trackpoint and keypad on my X1 are far inferior to previous Thinkpads, like the X220, before they decided their overarching mission was to make things as thin as possible. The trackpoint is sometimes unusable and is a chore to use at all times whereas the older ones were fun.
Both the old "Intel Ultrabook" and the new "Intel Evo" tightly restrict thickness in the 12-14" laptop segment.
I won't give Lenovo a free pass, but it's part of why keytravel and cooling solutions are pretty awful in modern small laptops.
How do those programs work? Do you need to meet a certain thickness to get called an ultrabook? Why can't manufacturers just opt out and make a notebook without "ultrabook" slapped on it?
Also you may know ThinkPad 25, that based on T470.
I was pretty happy with my surface, while it lasted anyway. Ended up with a defective touch screen that couldn't be replaced, so I just got a full refund (thank you extended warranty).
That being said, the touchpad on it is just barely "ok"-level and the webcam (on my older model) is just awful. The friction on the touchpad is so high my wrist becomes sore, and the webcam is located on the bottom of the screen (with a microphone on the bottom front edge near the trackpad!). Even though these flaws have required me to switch to a wireless mouse and external webcam, I'm still pretty satisfied.
For my next laptop, I'll likely either buy the newest XPS model (the newer ones have webcams at a usable position), or try the Razor again (the one I previously tried had quite a small battery life).
(I would love to know the series of events that led a high-end laptop to have a webcam placed at a position that is only optimal for looking up one's nose.)
edit: sorry, I just remembered -- I did have to replace the SSD on this thing when it conked out in 2019! fortunately I bought it refurbished with a warranty of some sort and they shipped a new one fast.
I think it wins on port options, the aesthetics you could argue as personal preferences, and optioned up it has the potential for maybe a better screen and a digitizer but at that point it loses badly on price. It's not a bad computer, but it's clearly a compromise on several issues and not really beating Apple enough at the stuff it does better that would compel a switch from purely a hardware or value standpoint. I think it's fine if you wanted to avoid Apple or macOS for software reasons, but that's about it. I've also had a pretty good track record with Apple hardware lasting ages while I watch peers with PCs that drop like flies every few years.
This is the point that many of us feel stuck with Apple. Every time I research Apple's alternatives I feel like I've wasted my time.
FWIW, I believe they've fixed this in recent revisions, as well as added a 16:10 ratio screen.
This is one of the very few laptops I'd consider vs a macbook at this point, especially given the preinstalled linux option.
For what it's worth, it's the touchpads and displays that keep pushing me away from the 13-inch MBP. I much prefer the feel of most PC precision touchpads to the grainy texture of the MBP touchpad. As for the display, I like to set high-DPI displays to 2x scaling, since it tends to look and work better, but the 13-inch MBP's 2560x1600px only has 1280x800dp of real estate at 2x scaling, which feels very cramped in comparison to the 1920x1080dp of real estate on my XPS 13's 3840x2160px display.
We used XPS 13s as lab computers at a previous job and they would just stop powering on eventually. Sometimes removing and reinserting the battery would bring them back, usually not.
The only real compromise that I've noticed is that the battery life isn't as good. But part of the reason for that is that it has an actual graphics card (albeit not a great one). So it's more of a trade-off than a compromise, the ability to do light gaming is worth it for me.
Not if you care about a good trackpad.
Definitely not if you care about running *nix with full vendor support.
Although I don't think Macs between 2014 - 2019 are as well built (have had a string of issues with those), I haven't had any other PC/Macbook last as long as that 2012 MBP. Some of my old Thinkpads still work, but have coil whine, noisy fans etc.
My Surface Pro was a hair below $2000. I was also considering a Lenovo X1 Yoga that was well above $2000. You sure that's competition on price?
On the other hand, that's a bit counter my experience. Working in a large company, I feel like walls keep emerging spontaneously and piercing through them is the bit that requires work. Often people inside the company cannot tell apart two teams working on related things, but the teams just won't talk to each other. Much less allow any kind of convergence to happen.
They haven't ever been better than Apple laptop hardware, even in Intel-land.
There seems to be this common bias in PC laptop evaluation that excludes Apple machines from consideration when doing comparisons.
Apple makes the best x64 laptops, and has for years. Sadly, they will stop soon.
I believe the ability to repair or swap components has always been better with Lenovo.
Apple beats Lenovo in a lot of other ways though, audio quality being one that I personally experienced. On my old T430s the speakers were so bad I wished they had just not included them at all. They were like the speakers in those talking greeting cards.
It was good for about a year. Then i started having connectivity problems. The Letter in the keys wrote off quickly. And a few of the keys started becoming less responsive. The quality just wasn't there.
Luckily, by then Apple came out with its version, and it's been flawless for a few years now. It's worth the extra money to go with Apple, if you're getting that kind of keyboard.
There are many many many many mechanical keyboard options to use with a Mac. If you're legitimately having difficulty finding a solution, feel free to reach out to me via the contact information in my profile and I'll be happy to make some specific recommendations.
https://www.keychron.com/pages/keychron-k3-wireless-mechanic...
Obviously that's all anecdotal and may be an outlier, but I don't find a naked assertion that "Apple makes the best x64 laptops" very convincing.
Yes, Apple did finally fix the awful keyboards on its laptops from 2016-2020, and their keyboards are once again quite good. The trackpad is what it has always been: the best on any computer at any price.
I'm not aware that Apple offers any kind of on-site warranty service, so that's a no, but the flipside is that you are much less likely to need it than you are with PCs. (Please, spare me the endless downvotes for saying this. I support hundreds of PCs and hundreds of Macs, and have for a couple decades now. I'm not just making this shit up for my health.)
Lets not promise the moon here. The M1's Linux support is far from complete and definitely not ready for general use.
Apple products (top case stickers notwithstanding) are fungible: just buy another one from any Apple store in the universe and restore your backup, and let AppleCare deal with the busted one on their own schedule.
There’s nothing special about your laptop except the data. The factory pumps out bazillions of them.
> Apple products ... just buy another one
I think you answered your own question. Buying a new laptop every time something is broken is expensive. Lenovo offers quite cheap extended warranty plus the next-day repair is great. (EU: I paid less then 50E for another year of warranty after the original 2 years)
I actually did this once and tried to submit a warranty support on day 1 of buying the new warranty and was turned down, but they called me about a week later saying they would waive the 30 days and ended up doing about $500 in repairs for $130 cost of the new warranty.
(the other condition is that you are only allowed one accidental repair event per year)
I doubt there are nearly as many people on HN making even one entry level Ford Focus a month in salary.
Along a similar line of reasoning, I totally understand if Coca-Cola bans soft drinks from Pepsi on campus. But I would be much less understanding of Ford banning non-Ford cars in their employee parking lots.
So will the Genius Bar. (If they don't, Apple has a 14 day return policy, so you can borrow anything they sell for free for two weeks.)
I need my laptop to work. If it doesn't work, I can't work. If I can't work, I'm not getting paid. That's why "next business day" is important.
My laptop contains sensitive data. Data which is encrypted at rest, but which I'm nevertheless not going to ship to goodness knows where, for goodness knows how long. That's one reason why "on site" is important. The other is that I paid a lot of money for a piece of hardware; I'm not going to faf about looking for some Apple Store (of which very few exist in my country).
Lenovo charges ~15% of the purchase price for 3 year NBDOS support, which is very much worth every cent. Tech shows up, replaces $part, leaves, and I can get back to work.
I'm the exact same way, which is why I have 4. Next business day is way too far away.
I always bring a mouse, I hate the little nubs even more :)
I experienced both on employer-provided MacBooks. Now, I may have been particularly unlucky here, but I think Apple hardware quality never having been surpassed is a bit of an optimistic statement.
Lucky you then, I literally just replaced an inflated battery on a Dell latitude, can send some cool pics of the thing being swollen like a wet nappy if you want.
I think the shielding of the power adaptor picks up some induction (or capacitance?) and you can feel that when you brush over it with your hand. If you use a grounded lead (the 3-prong cable that comes with the adaptor instead of the 2-prong duckhead) it doesn't happen. Because the voltage that will flow to ground and won't build up.
You can indeed feel it very clearly because it makes the surface feel rough and tickly. I'm also sensitive to it.
A lot of computers do this, my PC-XT did this back in the 80s. But Apple is one of the few with an all metal case. A lot of other makes have metal but it's usually just a sheet and not connected to the actual ground.
What I hate about Apple's current laptops is the sharp edges that cut into my wrists, and the keyboards that are too shallow to have real feedback. They seem made more to please the eyes, not the hands.
Apple laptops are always a fair bit pricier for a given set of hw specs than any other manufacturer would be.
Additionally, they lack any level of reparability and a trip to the genius bar will often be quite expensive. Hell, look at the debacle that was the butterfly keyboard they pushed for something like 5-6 years.
Apple's keyboards, even before/after the butterfly keyboard, are inferior (in my opinion) than the keyboard on the Thinkpad line, and feel quite mushy by comparison.
The aluminum construction is quite solid, but not without it's issues. They seem to get far hotter in my experience, but perhaps that's them acting as heat sink so I'll give that a pass. The hard edges on the case are a pain-point to me.
I know a lot of people seem to prefer the apple touchpads, but I've never liked them. I prefer physical mouse buttons, and the click never felt right to me on apple touchpads. Part of it might be that gesture inputs with the touchpads aggravated my RSI, so I was never able to make use of them.
All said, I don't agree with Apple making the best x64 laptops, but they fielded a competitor like many others. They have the advantage of being the only true Apple laptop though, so if you're all-in on the Apple ecosystem, they're definitely the best choice. Otherwise, there are many laptops that might surpass the macbooks, depending on your individual preferences.