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Comment by gigel82 | Hacker News Reader

Lenovo left a sour taste for me after they pushed a BIOS update through Windows Update on my daughter's Flex that bricked the device (in the middle of a school-week, while she was doing online school).

There were dozens of reports of the same problem from other owners of that model, yet they refused to acknowledge the issue was theirs or offer any self-serve option (I remember most laptops nowadays can re-flash the BIOS from an attached USB with specific format and layout, but I presume they saved a couple of cents by removing that feature from the Flex models). Luckily the laptop was still in warranty and I got it "fixed" after 6 weeks, but will never purchase another Lenovo product again.

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Lenovo also possibly sabotages SuperIO chip when the charging port breaks and pins come in contact or standard repair diagnostics is attempted[1]. Considering this is not widely spoken about, I guess this is limited to lower end models available only in developing regions of the world(which makes it altogether more sinister if done on purpose).

[1] https://youtu.be/kdQXSYUlUTw?t=615

I would take the video with a grain of salt - the guy says himself he doesn’t have the schematic, there might very well be an inline ESD protection IC connected to the pin..

But he demonstrates on camera, the pin from charging port leads directly to the SuperIO pin without any protections in between?

Besides there are several accounts of this on the comments of that video with similar Lenovo models. Sorin's viewership base in majority comprises of laptop repair technicians and he's quite respected in the community(Like Louis Rossmann).

I believe there is a setting to stop Windows from attempting to download/install non-Windows updates (including thirdparty drivers). If you still want automatic WU but not the other stuff, then you can set that.

Many years ago I remember reading about Toshiba laptops doing the same thing --- silently updating BIOS in the background and failing, resulting in a brick --- although that was the manufacturer crapware doing it, not Windows itself.

Personally, I never update BIOS unless there is a very good reason to, like a fix for detecting RAM or similar.

Luckily the laptop was still in warranty and I got it "fixed" after 6 weeks,

In Shenzhen, you can get your laptop's BIOS reflashed while-you-wait/watch. I was there a few years ago with a friend who needed his laptop fixed. Of course it wasn't a warranty repair, but the difference in MTTR (and cost --- about $20USD, and negotiable if you really want to) is a stark contrast.

>I remember most laptops nowadays can re-flash the BIOS from an attached USB with specific format and layout

Source for this? I've seen it available on various enthusiast desktop motherboards, but I haven't seen it on laptops. I haven't even seen it on the pricier thinkpad line.

For my Thinkpad X1 Carbon (Gen 5), I download the ISOs from here: https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/us/en/products/laptops-and-netb...

And I use my re-write of geteltorio to flash it on a USB drive: https://github.com/hspak/geteltorito-zig

I've done this multiple times now without issues, but your milage by vary!

I've done it at least twice with my Thinkpad T495. Bootable USB with El Torito format, if I remember it correctly. Using Lenovo official ISO images and instructions, etc.

I can't find any Lenovo official documentation, but if you google for something like "lenovo laptop fn+r bios usb" you'll find a bunch of tutorials for how the recovery works.

It does not work on the Flex model line-up though (I presume because they didn't include the bootstrapper firmware or some h/w component).

Instructions for one specific Dell laptop: https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-us/drivers/driversdetai...

Expand the "Installation Instructions" part, and you'll see "Updating the BIOS from BIOS Boot Menu (independent of operating system)"

I don't know if Dell supports it across all their laptops, but it has on the ones I've owned.

GP said the device was "bricked", so I'm not sure whether that feature would work. "bricked" to me would imply BIOS is broken (otherwise it's not really bricked because you can reinstall the OS). The feature on various gaming motherboards involves you copying the BIOS file on a formatted USB, plugging it into the motherboard, and pressing a button (on the motherboard itself). This works even if the current BIOS is broken/corrupt.

There could be something immutable that boots the BIOS that also checks for things to flash the BIOS with.

That's correct: the BIOS was corrupt; the machine had no display at all, so no way to enter the BIOS menu or "boot" an OS.

Other Lenovo laptops have a recovery mode (Fn+R) where some bootstrapping firmware would flash a BIOS from USB, they neglected to include that feature in the (presumably lower cost) Flex lineup.

Some folks out of support went as far as desoldering the EPROM with the BIOS and hooking it up to a flash programmer, to get the laptop unbricked.

I realize they have a lot of different models and probably a limited test matrix, but it's still unforgivable to push a forced update that bricks the device to this level (and until that happened I didn't even know OEMs can push BIOS updates over Windows Update, probably because most of my machines are custom builds).

> I realize they have a lot of different models and probably a limited test matrix

Why would that be hard? They're the manufacturer; all they have to do is keep a handful of every model they've made, stick them in a room connected to network and power, and have Jenkins run a job on them that flashes the firmware and reboots. I know I'm oversimplifying, but I don't think I'm oversimplifying by that much, and it shouldn't be hard for the manufacturer to keep test units of their own hardware on hand.

I had to do this recently on an old Dell XPS 9530 circa 2013.

It had been sitting in a cupboard for a good year or two and when powered on it produced no video output, or BIOS/POST screen. The backlight for the screen didn't even come on.

While it wasn't particularly easy to troubleshoot. I eventually managed to flash an uncorrupted version of the BIOS over USB and it's been working fine since.

Just did this about a month ago on my hp laptop

It is key for desktop motherboards, at least AMD ones where they reuse the same socket over multiple CPU generations.

I bought a motherboard and a new AMD Zen 3 CPU together recently. The motherboard wouldn't POST because the BIOS was too old to and didn't have Zen 3 support.

The only way to get it to work was to flash a new BIOS using the out-of-band update tool that works with just the PSU and USB stick attached.

Without that you would need a spare CPU knocking about...

Not sure what % of motherboards support USB BIOS Flashback but I remember AMD in Ryzen 2 era shipping out "loaner cpus" exactly for that purpose -- so people could buy a CPU/AM4 motherboard combo that needed the BIOS upgrade to boot it.

FWIW i just went through the exact same thing with my surface. "it's time to update" > "you're in an unescapable blue screen boot loop"

I have a fairly vanilla custom machine and hit this too. I think there's something profuooundly wrong with a recent windows update related to driver signing.

It probably wasn't "BIOS" persay, but the Intel Management Engine (IME).

Citation: I bricked my own Lenovo applying the IME "critical" update.

> will never purchase another Lenovo product again.

Even a ThinkPad?

You mean a laptop in 2021 that still only supports 1920x1080 resolution without a docking station? Or did they finally fix that nonsense?

You look wrong model.

I have the T490 bought a couple of years ago. It came with a 1440p screen.

I guess some models still have lower resolution screens, but I didn't look at then when I was evaluating the various options.

The laptop screen is fine, it's the HDMI out limited to 1920x1080 that's problematic. Carrying a docking station around defeats the portability of the laptop IMO. And it's not like there aren't better options than Lenovo...

> the HDMI out limited to 1920x1080

Well this really sounds nonsensical. I wouldn't believe if someone else told me but I feel like I can believe an HNer on such a subject. Thank you for letting us know. I would otherwise not imagine this can exist and wouldn't check when choosing a laptop. Now I wonder if my laptop supports higher resolutions on HDMI.

> Carrying a docking station around defeats the portability of the laptop IMO

You are not supposed to carry them, they are meant to be put on your table and stay there, already connected to external monitors, power supply and other devices, waiting for you to bring the laptop and connect it to just the dock.

Nevertheless small and lightweight "traveler docks" also exist.

There must be more to this story... My T440p and T460s from years ago both support 4K via display port and my T495 supports 4K via its HDMI.

Work issued T580. IT insisted docking stations were needed for higher resolutions. Doing some research, it turns out that is true but also one can buy a proprietary USB-C cable as well, my bad. It's the built-in HDMI that caps at 1920x1080 as I experienced.

I also bought a HP laptop that only supports 1920x1080 resolution in 2021 and it seems the optimal (for a laptop size screen) resolution to me.

As for docking stations - AFAIK today a docking station means a cube attached to any laptop with a USB-C cable. Lenovo probably expects you to use this: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/accessories-and-software/dock...

Unfortunately ThinkPads have a design flaw. On mine, if I use the LAN adapter that came with the device, I won't be able to use the adjacent USB-C port!

This is an invisible advantage that Apple has. Because Macs don't have a long tail of combinations of hardware, BIOS, firmware, etc they can actually recognize bugs and acknowledge them. This gives a better customer experience.

But because the hardware is proprietary, the length of that simpler tail still depends entirely on Apple's willingness to support it's legacy products.

This is true — and if you look at the history, it tends to support the person you replied to. They tend to support consumer hardware at least as long as most enterprise lines.

Apple’s policy is to support all hardware models for at least 5 years, 7 in some jurisdictions.

Considering that ten year old computers are still usable today, it means that the supported lifetime of Apple hardware is half of what it could be.

And it's not just the computer itself but the whole ecosystem that gets the boot periodically. Last year I built a Linux-based 24 track digital studio on the cheap by buying Firewire soundcards that no longer worked on the latest Macs. Great hardware that otherwise still worked perfectly.

It’s more that Apple is striking a balance between a reasonable hardware support timeframe and moving their software platforms forward with at a certain velocity without excessive legacy baggage.

Waste is a legitimate concern and Apple has very convenient trade-in and recycling programs to address that.

We wouldn't have to recycle as much if it was easier to reuse the machines in the first place. It's still planned obsolescence.

I consider it an extremely visible advantage.

They made a design flaw (too short flex cable for monitor) on some laptops but only offered extended warranty fixes to the less expensive versions of that laptop.

Apple is not the champion you think it is.

Also they made their phone have random errors and slowness if you replaced the camera module with no error message so that you would blame the tech shop you got it repaired at for "breaking it".

At least within the eco system, Apple aren’t going to push ads onto your computer.

The dichotomy isn’t Apple vs PC anymore. It’s walled garden vs freedom. If you’re going to choose a walled garden, Apple sure is the nicest. If you want to own your hardware you need to start supporting the smaller players.

I don't believe Apple will pushing ads, but their laptop can't run OS other than macOS. So if they do harmful thing for macOS, there's no way to escape with same hardware, until Linux hackers make it possible to run Desktop Linux.

^ Absolutely not true.

I even got Linux running on an decade old 12in PowerBook G4.

There is even a browser made for PowerPC, although the name escapes me.

Do you know what's happened on M1 Mac?

Linux is being ported to M1: https://asahilinux.org/

I run Linux on my Macbook Pro 2013.

They too bundle useless apps like News, Stock, etc. even if you don't want it or will ever use it on every Apple device.

You can delete most iOS apps: Stocks, News, Mail, Safari are all removable. Also they are not ads and can actually do something useful. MacOS is also ad free.

While I agree that Apple is much better than others in not bundling adware with their product (the exception being App Store, which is also an advertising platform for them) they do bundle many apps with their device. And bundling is also a kind of advertisement / promotion. And on ios you can't remove some of these apps but only hide them.

> they can actually recognize bugs and acknowledge them

Unless it’s a hardware flaw and then they will usually ignore it until it looks like they may be legally compelled not to.

GPU failures, display flex cable issues, insufficient heat dissipation, the fact that the 16” MBP GPU pulls 100% power when connected to an external display, the fucking butterfly keyboard.

Don’t get me wrong I like my MacBook as much as the next guy, but if there is a hardware problem in a MacBook you’ll be lucky if they even acknowledge it.

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