Linux on the Framework Laptop
frame.work
frame.work
I absolutely love this laptop. It had been awhile since I built a computer (let alone a laptop). The DIY kit instructions and the construction of the machine itself are very well thought out.
I am very excited for a future where we can measure the lifespan of our personal electronics in decades rather than months.
Congrats to the Framework team!
It's easy enough to manually configure scaling for the various things that are just browsers and I may do that, or use something like GDK_DPI_SCALE. Frankly, "browser-ish" things and the Terminal cover a very large fraction of what I use the thing for.
Fractional scaling is easy to just turn on in the Display settings but I don't love the results and don't want to really deal with what if anything turning it on will do to Steam/ScummVM/whatever. I haven't really played with it much, though.
Unfortunately, 13" is definitely too small for me (in terms of ergonomics). Are you planning on releasing models with a larger (and matte) screen in the future?
Also, could the keyboard "module" in theory be fully customized by the community (so as to support ergonomic layouts similar to ErgoDox, include a trackpoint etc.)?
Finally, why only 4 expansion slots? AFAIU there's no Thunderbolt card(?) yet, so I need every USB slot I can get my hands on and 2 (4 - 1 HDMI or DP slot - 1 PowerDelivery slot) would definitely not be enough!
That was Intel's concession on blocking PCI-E 4.0: they wanted to mandate Thunderbolt over Type C as the official external PCI-E interface in enterprise, when the entire industry went with OCuLink instead, due to actually being enterprise-grade (it uses the replacement of the SFF-8644 (multiuse, commonly called MiniSAS HD), the SFF-8611; some mobos use SFF-8644, and SF-8644<->SFF-8611 cables exist) whereas Type C is not.
When they got their way with USB4 mandating Thunderbolt, PCI-E 4.0 finally was ratified several years late.... PCI-E 4.0 is now so late because of Intel's ridiculous tantrum that only two generations of PC will use it, and the world is proceeding directly to 5.0. Some products have already only exist in 3.0 and (soon to be) 5.0, skipping 4.0 entirely.
@nrp, can you comment on upcoming models? Would love to have a 15" or 17" model with the same swappable ports but with a beefier processor and much larger memory capacities.
The larger frames might allow for more ports, but I'm not sure if you're limited by the number of PCIe lanes on these processors.
I think a Ryzen offering would also be welcomed.
Lastly thanks so much for this product and for first-class Linux support.
Framework community discussion: https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint
Patents?
[1]: https://tex.com.tw/
Looks to me that to allow for even the low-profile Kailh choc switches, the laptop would need to be much thicker. (The DIY laptop is 15mm thick. My PCB+kailh+bumpons keyboard is 14mm thick).
https://github.com/saoto28/pineapple60 This (for the ThinkPad T470) barely fits, and that laptop is 24mm thick.
- VMs for testing eat up memory fast. - A deep disk IO cache dramatically speeds up some workloads, even if processes aren't allocating the memory themselves. - Running a bunch of microservices locally (we have a webpack-based app that eats 16GiB easy - yes, yes... we're working on it).
I think 64 is a bit extreme these days for a personal computer if you're not running a stack of VMs. Servers are a different story, of course.
If you have complex virtual setups (or use Chrome, according to some, I won't known since I barely touch it these days) then you might need it.
In other words, you don't really want this laptop at all.
"I would buy it if it had a non-chiclet keyboard"
"I would buy it if it had a dedicated GPU."
"I would buy it if they had an AMD option."
"I would buy it if it were cheaper than similar models from huge established corporations."
"I would buy it if they figured out the tax and import laws for every country so they could ship it anywhere in the world."
"I would buy it if it didn't have an awful keyboard layout."
"I would buy it if its trackpad were as good as the one made by the richest company in the world."
"I would buy it if it had a trackpoint like one manufacturer puts on a few of their laptops."
The interesting thing about the Framework is conceptually some of this they can do with just module options or aftermarket components. Trackpoints or different keyboard layouts, different switch styles, different mainboards, etc, could all just be an option in the future since they can sell a kit of parts rather than having to build and sell a range of product lines.
If you're wondering about NixOS experience on Framework laptop, there is this blog post I've recently read: https://grahamc.com/blog/nixos-on-framework
I'm willing to take the gamble. Sometimes you have to help fund the change you want to see in the world.
But other times, like this? It's absolutely a valid approach. If a high-profile open laptop like this can succeed - which is helped at this scale by individual purchases - maybe some bigger players will take notice.
In this case, the 'bad outcome' is crummy thin-and-light disposable laptops with insufficient numbers of obsolete ports, proprietary drivers, bad thermals, and closed operating systems, and no options for power users who want good laptops. It has felt to me, for a long time, that Apple, Dell, Lenovo, HP etc. have been pressing further in this direction. My 'boycott' of these products is not heard in any of their boardrooms or design committees; the strategy of buying business' discontinued Thinkpads on eBay works for now but does not work long-term.
A successful Framework laptop might make some waves. Somewhere in some conference room, someone will float the proposal that their new mobile workstation should obviously save $0.25 per unit by gluing in the battery, this would be a data point to say that some people who might be making decisions like this would actually like a laptop that includes a screwdriver.
If the government was spending millions of dollars on ad campaigns to try to get people to use their faucet less, but they were not dealing with wasteful farmers, you may have an argument. But to say that people _shouldn't_ conserve resources just because they aren't the largest consumer of the given resource is ridiculous. Me being conscientious of how much water I waste from my faucet doesn't slow progress in dealing with the larger water wasters. There is no reason not to do it.
> fixing of most problems that should be tackled on the biggest contributing factors first, always
This only applies if you can only fix one factor at a time. That is never the case in real world, complex, societal issues. Society is not a computer science puzzle.
I mean.. that doesn't seem very far off from the truth?
Like the OP, I think one should analyze the problem before opting for the "obvious" solution. I did so with water a few years ago. IIRC, for individuals the biggest share is for showers, then toilet. These two account for two thirds of standard use.
If you encourage people to turn off the sink more often, you may gain 20%... of 5% of their average water needs, so 1% overall. If they take fewer showers, each with less water, they easily can halve their consumption, so a gain of more than 20% overall.
Sure. But politics of change happens only when an idea spreads. This happens only by changing your own attitudes first, and then trying to advocate it to others in your social circle. The more you believe in an idea, and personify it by adopting it, the easier it is for others to believe you and consider it.
This is what Gandhi once said:
> “We but mirror the world. All the tendencies present in the outer world are to be found in the world of our body. If we could change ourselves, the tendencies in the world would also change. As a man changes his own nature, so does the attitude of the world change towards him. This is the divine mystery supreme. A wonderful thing it is and the source of our happiness. We need not wait to see what others do.”
(This is what is drummed down to the quote - "Be the change you want to see in this world".)
Gandhi was a brilliant politician and this advise is psychologically quite profound - a lot of pessimism, frustration and anxiety that we experience is because we often focus on things that are beyond our sphere of control.
(Gandhi was not the only politician to have this idea. Muhammad, whom the muslims consider their Prophet, also advocated similar ideas in Islam and this is apparent on Islam's dictates on charity. Muslims in my social circle are literally taught that "charity begins at home". Apart from the poor and the needy, they are told to keep a major portion aside and first enquire within the family if anyone is in need of financial help, and then expand their search to include friends and acquaintances. That's socialism and distribution of wealth within a family / social circle, and the effects of that can be much more profound.)
Indeed, there is no point in having individuals resisting the system, rather changing the system itself would bring forth the systemic change we want.
Probably better to have legislations such as GDPR in place rather than people having to install a bunch of privacy extensions in their browsers.
I've had problems with Dells before - if it's out of warranty then tough, nothing we can do. I had a screen fail on my 2014 Macbook - luckily in warranty so I got a new screen, but it took a week for them to do it.
And, of course, I can upgrade the memory and/or drive any time I like - they're easily accessible and stock parts that I can buy from anywhere.
I think the trade-off on price for this repairability is well worth it. If I'd bought a Dell instead of a Purism I'd be SOL and looking at the cost of a whole new laptop now.
I wonder why they don't at least mark up the replacement? Or at cost means normal consumer cost and not BOM cost?
In the other end of spectrum Apple do these part swap with exact same margin as they do on a new devices + their labour.
I mean, if all that mattered were specs, we would all be running desktops at full desktop-class TDP. Or laptops made out of cheap bendy plastic with the latest CPUs.
Ergonomics matter, build quality matters, and for some the ability to adapt and upgrade is also part of the spec.
As someone doing just that (I do 99% of my work on my desktop machine), to this day I don't understand folks doing heavy development work on a laptop. If you need portability, remote into a desktop class machine. Sure there are times when you just can't (airplane, or camping in the middle of nowhere, etc) but those times are exceedingly rare.
Having done development work by remoting into another machine (specifically, RDPing into a "dev" server to use vendor-specific IDEs/tooling), I can't say it was an even remotely pleasant experience. I would've sooner preferred doing that work directly on my own machine, or at the very least in a VM if a specific OS and configuration is necessary.
Maybe the software you build and its dev tooling allows you t to be effective with a mobile processor, but for my needs it's not good enough.
If we look at a maxed out M1 Macbook Air it's $2,049.00 with 2TB of drive space.
The maxed out frame.work costs $1,917.00 with a 100 dollar deposit and that doesn't have a drive in because I don't trust WD with my data. If we add a 2 TB drive the cost is $2,316.00 or $2,416.00 with deposit.
Granted there are some trade offs. Take for instance the frame.work has more memory, but the dell xps has a 4k screen. I don't see any costs savings here and I still have to open this thing up, source a drive and put it all together which means I'm spending additional money on this.
Never mind that it doesn’t even seem you actually “maxed-out” either because I just made a XPS 13 Developer that costs US$2,459. So now you’re just comparing arbitrarily different specs.
Price is not that much higher if the promise to be able to keep upgraded is fulfilled, I totally can see this laptop being used (and upgraded) for at least a decade.
There is literally nothing on the market that is equivalent to the PC tower you upgrade through years.
And I truly love that they made the choice to use USB-C instead of proprietary connectors for the modules. It means that if the market really exists, we can hope for third party components.
The drive out cost on my Framework, which has a better network card, faster RAM (though the Dell RAM is soldered so it is better for battery), an SN850 SSD (I trust WD for the high-end gen4 SSDs), and better port options, was $2032.00. I could have shaved off more than $100 if I chose a different port selection (I got 8 total modules) and didn't get the AC adapter and I could have saved further money if I had chosen the SN759 and the non VPro WiFi adapter (which I probably should have in retrospect)
For $90 extra, I get something repairable, something that that will let me upgrade to 64GB of RAM (32GB is the max on the XPS 13), and something more versatile from a port perspective.
Framework didn't charge tax (that will change, I'm sure as soon as they sell the required amount in various states), but even if we account for that, that would leave us at $2240.38. I'm personally willing to pay a 10% penalty for having something more repairable and sustainable. (Also need to factor in the cost of a Costco membership
That said -- I just checked Dell's website and the Developer Edition with an i7 (1165G7 or 1185G7), 32GB of RAM, a 1TB SSD and 4K screen is $2159.00 before tax. So that's $80 more than my identically configured Framework, but with a lower quality SSD and WiFi adapter. The Dell has a better screen -- though I prefer the 3:2 aspect ratio of the Framework/Surface/Matebook X Pro).
I understand you CAN get a cheaper laptop, but as someone who will be returning the XPS as soon as the Framework arrives (assuming it is half as good as the reviews have been), I'm looking at something that costs the exact same and is also more sustainable.
edited to correct the price different between the XPS with tax and the Framework without. It is $90 difference vs $70.
This is exactly like the Dell or Lenovo. There's no difference at all. This laptop has not innovated in any way or have any features whatsoever that might distinguish it.
/s
If you don't see value for yourself in the obvious differences of this laptop, fine. But why snipe?
I don't care for the Intel board, so I will wait to see if they can produce an interesting Ryzen card. But that doesn't mean that others should wait.
It's awesome work. They deserve a congratulations.
Today it's likely we're bootstrapping off of more niche, enthusiast audiences to reach the mainstream, but over the longer term, the mainstream helps us fuel the ecosystem to keep delivering awesome products for smaller audiences.
I think today it is just became cheaper for sample companies to offer laptops that can compete with the big names. The Clevo machines of old looked really bad next to a MacBook, today, while still less nice, they are flat and light and minimal as well.
If there's anything that the past 20 years of American Capitalism has taught us: these companies should all merge, integrate their hardware and software, and then get a bunch of VC money until they are the single, truly-free personal hardware vendor in the market.
Beware of customs rules and import taxes in your country
There is a market.
Finding if model XX-YYZZ supported linux and then purchasing and installing myself seemed like something I didn't want to do. So having this page from the manufacturer which says these linux distros work and here are the pitfalls is very helpful.
You start to realize the problem is it seems to take a little while for hardware to get supported so linux laptops are always a little behind.
Edit: Impressive as in it's low compared to equally specced big-name laptops.
:P (i too wonder which way was intended)
$750 laptop, $360 RAM, $1000 SSD. The RAM is pretty reasonably priced, but you can get your own 4TB SSD for about $500 less. $150 less if you want the exact same model they're selling.
It's a much more reasonable level of markup than RAM/SSD upgrades from other manufacturers, though of course being able to bring your own is a major selling point.
I would expect that they should be be cheaper if they want to get ahead of the game.
price([A, B]) <= price([A]) + price([B])I mean, I'll happily sell you $100 Amazon products for $150 if you'd like. I can even charge for shipping, and not pass on the 5% cashback I get.
I've been thinking of doing that (when it finally launches in the UK..!) just to enjoy the promise of being able to. Even though they're offering RAM and WiFi cheaper than I could find it elsewhere in a quick look (Amazon & Scan).
Good way to not stay in business. At the very least, they need to mark it up enough to cover the credit card fees when they re-sell it, never mind the costs of the logistics of the resale operation.
If they had that and a supported eGPU configuration (or even an option with better graphics) I would probably retire my desktop.
https://www.reddit.com/r/System76/comments/k7xrtz/ill_have_w...
It's been some 10 years since everyone seemed to have settled on the "chiclet" style keyboards, to my own sadness
And unlike some companies (Purism, cough), their products are shipping at the estimated times.
I really hope they make it and I really hope it encourages other manufacturers to take things like repairability and sustainability more seriously.
Note, I use sway but don't notice much of a battery difference on gnome or plasma.
(I kind of suspect you might be limited to one though, assuming the power delivery controller can only really handle one external source of power)
Sadly it looks like the boot drive cannot be replaced in this manner. Many years ago I had a Compaq laptop with swappable boot drive. So one day you can boot Windows and the next day you can boot Linux. Without any external drives. (No messing with dual boot -- you replace the hard drive completely.) If this company offered a similar feature I would buy the laptop in half a second.
So I would imagine non-stick drives would work okay.
I too might consider the Framework laptop if I could boot both Linux and Windows off of a Storage Expansion card.
Note that even the Pi is not OSHW. With (considerable) of effort you could order the PCBs and the components and make one yourself. You'd need to reverse engineer the rasp. It's difficult to convey how amazing that is.
In full size mode (desktop) there is a visible selector for the country, but I just assume this was language selector.
The trackpad is solid but not quite to the level of an Apple product, at least when I'm running Ubuntu. I imagine as drivers improve over time it will only get better.
I personally dig the display but I am not doing anything graphics intensive so YMMV. The aspect ratio is great for editing text files, though!
It will replace my 5 years old Dell Latitude E7480 (extended with third party 32G RAM and 1 TB nvme).
And my colleagues in the IT department are also interested, like ifixit it reminds them of 2012 era macbook.
(Not sure how the terms translate, and there are more details, roughly: 1 year is a warranty where the supplier has to prove that the defect is not their fault, second year it is the other way round. In practice, if stuff breaks in the first 2 years that is no obviously the user mishandling the device, you get a free repair.)
So if you really, really want it right now I guess that's an option... But then it becomes a really overpriced laptop.
Are there any plans for a 15"? Are there any plans for a Ryzen option? Would love Ryzen + 32GB of RAM + a PCI-E 4.0 nVME drive, would be a nice performance boost.
the challenge will be how to wrap all this goodness in simplicity to reach mass markets. linux never really solved that.
but its the type of challenge that once its solved the world has changed...
The Framework Laptop is now shipping - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27926425 - July 2021 (761 comments)
I mean cursors are probably the most used keys and they are tiny and you don't have dedicated keys for PgUp / PgDown, Home, End.
I have money ready for a laptop, but still can't find anything on the market :/
Second deal breaker is Intel. I don't want to reward this company for doing basically nothing for 5 or so years and essentially releasing the same products under different names.
Apple flip-flopped on this in MacBooks going from inverted-T to full-height left/right and apparently now back, and as usual other manufacturers have seemed to follow. Just waiting for the "back again" to trickle down.
I just hope Framework as a company lasts until it is time for me to replace my laptop because I want their laptop to be my next one.
Is there any info on the thermals of the Framework laptop?
This article seems to go into some details and has pictures:
https://frame.work/blog/the-upgradeable-mainboard
Key quote:
"We’ve designed the thermal system in the Framework Laptop to handle 28W continuous processor load. By making space for an unusually large 65mmx5.5mm cooling fan and carefully designing our airflow paths, we’ve done this without sacrificing quietness. Our dual 5mm heatpipes and copper fin pack allows the CPU to run up to 60W turbo."
But 28W continuous is very promising!
I'm strongly considering getting one of these, but it's hard to take the leap to a newcomer manufacturer where I can't try before I buy.
Also, any idea why the i7-1185G7 is a full $400 more than the 1165G7? Comparison[0] shows no major differences I can see, just some slight clock bumps, and the fact that it's vPro capable (I guess maybe that's it?).
[0] https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/compare.htm...
Keyboard and touchpad are extremely subjective. As someone who has used ThinkPads exclusively for a very long time and is a huge fan of the trackpoint, I have largely enjoyed using the Framework's touchpad. The keyboard I am a little less certain about. Not having dedicated page up/down/home/end buttons is really throwing me for a loop as I tend to rely on those for navigation a lot. Chiclet keyboards are not my favorite, but I haven't found it uncomfortable.
But I've had a Dell XPS 13 for the past several years, and now I've gotten used to having those keys again, so if I switch, I bet I'll feel that pain again as well. But I also expect I'll get used to switching back.
[0] Then again, I am also constantly accidentally hitting the Insert key, which is next to Home, by accident, which is never what I want and ends up being more annoying than you'd expect.
I guess the next argument is that the laptop isn't watertight 50m under the sea?
I am looking at buying a new laptop and currently the Razer Blade 14 or Alienware R-something are the top candidates. Would have loved to buy a Framework laptop, but it doesn't look like GPU is a consideration in the design.
(I don't want to carry an external GPU around while travelling)
Issues with Apple’s philosophies aside, the M1 Air is the best laptop I’ve ever had. By far. The battery life and standby time are endless. I tend to only use it for 20 minutes on the weekdays and a charge lasts me all week, with slightly heavier usage on the weekends.
I don’t expect the Framework laptop to win in all categories (battery life, overall level of polish) but I think it will be very rewarding to build and take care of, and I plan to run Linux on it which I think will be a great opportunity for me to grow my skills, and also give me the opportunity to vote with my wallet for the change I want to see in the world.
Seems there will definitely be folks who can easily determine whether they're better served by a "portable gaming pc" vs a "laptop pc"--but there's some use cases where the decision isn't as clear cut so it'd be informative to see how people choose.
Interesting times in Linux land.
2022 as "Year of Linux on the Couch" finally? :D
Well, connecting tiny antenna cables is kind of a pain if you have fat clumsy fingers. But with a little patience it isn't a big deal.
(I’d love to attach an external GPU.)
But i guess you're right, the entity point above still stands imho outside of US, but on their warranty page there is at the bottom
"THIS WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS, AND YOU MAY HAVE OTHER RIGHTS WHICH VARY FROM STATE TO STATE OR PROVINCE TO PROVINCE."
My comment is that there really isn't much of substance in the article. It's very short and doesn't contain much information in it.
I like the Framework laptop, but I think this post doesn't do a lot.
Best of luck!
I agree that it's short, but I found the information very useful.
I've ordered a framework laptop (expected to be delivered today, if FedEx plays nice), and was really excited to read the content of the email. It's super helpful in deciding which linux distro I want to start out with, and has links to the forum threads where people are sorting out support for each distro.
Exactly the kind of content I need as I start down the path of getting the laptop setup.
So +1 for short, but I strongly disagree that the post doesn't contain much information.
Microsoft should buy this company right now.
This laptop is amazing. I'm only taking a first look at this now after seeing this product on the HN home page a few times.
The modularity and repairability.
And it runs Windows...
The modularity of expansion ports could be huge for travelers, executives, high-end users, and for consumers that want more options and more control over port combinations.
But this needs the backing of a large tech company to change the market fast enough to avoid getting squeezed out by Dell, Asus, and other large manufacturers.
If Microsoft is smart, they buy this company and bet billions to expand marketing, manufacturing, and logistics.
Also, knowing that a tech giant is backing the product for long-term customer support, etc. will help enterprises adopt the product.
This is easily one of the most troubling takes I've read on the web in ages, and that's saying something. If Microsoft buys them that would be the beginning of the end for everything great about Framework.
It's not like something has prevented laptop manufacturers from making hardware that isn't hostile to the user.
Anyway, if you want others to make a laptop like this, Apple would need to make one first.
I hope Framework remains wholly independent and continues to do what they're doing for a very long time, only with more resources and the stability that can buy.
However, I'm not sure that I get this. At the end of the day, we're talking about an MBP-lookalike that runs Windows and has non-soldered RAM. And kinda-sorta gives you an option to run Linux without paying the Windows tax, but only if you're willing to assemble from a kit.
That's... not terribly revolutionary, sorry. System76 has been doing the Dell-close version of this for years, to a tiny niche market. The only thing new here is the Apple-clone aesthetics rather than Dell-close aesthetics.
Plus, it seems like most of the comments here are along the lines of, "Oh, I'd love to buy one if only it had a different CPU or different RAM or different screen or different keyboard, etc etc etc". The target audience for something like this are such fickle unique snowflakes, that will never be happy with something that's aimed at a broad market.
Honestly, I think the hype here benefits artificially from Apple's recent bad press, and the intensity of HN discussion on iPhone photo scanning lately. I think there's clearly a lot of ABSTRACT interest in options and competition. I just question how much CONCRETE genuine interest there is in actually purchasing this actual product.
When they release an AMD motherboard I'm definitely going to order one.
More details here: https://frame.work/blog/the-upgradeable-mainboard
Key quote:
"One additional design consideration we emphasized is maximizing reusability. The mainboard is fully functional by itself outside of the system. This means that if you upgrade the mainboard in your Framework Laptop, you can take the replaced one and use it as a high performance single board computer. [...] We’ll offer the mainboard by itself in the Framework Marketplace [...]"
Aaaaand you have just validated the GP's point. :)
I love the concept and will check them out when I'll need a new laptop. But I am definitely a "fickle unique snowflake" kind of a customer.
There's also the issue of they missed the whole point of the product.
Personally, very excited to see this product, but I really want an AMD APU machine.
Yes an AMD APU with RDNA graphics in this laptop is what I really want.
That's... exactly what I'm talking about, though.
"Once they offer a bajillion options, we're all in!"
Yeah, but unless the base model sells like hotcakes, they'll never have the capital to offer a bajillion options. lol
Nobody that I have seen is saying the specs or look and feel are revolutionary, but I've never heard of a laptop with good specs that is user serviceable so easily. This is absolutely revolutionary to my life.