Brussels battles old prejudices as it frees unloved river from its vault | Hacker News Reader

Brussels battles old prejudices as it frees unloved river from its vault

theguardian.com

147 pointsf_allwein78 comments

They didn't bother cleaning it up for that long because the stench down-river from Brussels went into a flemish area and when they did finally succumb to pressure from the flemish side to cleanup the stench of this river they mismanaged the effort and the project was late and had a minor corruption scandal.

Calling these prejudices "old" is a stretch, it's only in 2016 they saw that fishes could survive in the river.

And there was a dispute a few years ago with one of the companies that cleans the waste water that flows back into the river. They stopped operations and the pollution wiped out the fish all over again.

> They stopped operations and the pollution wiped out the fish all over again.

Sounds like they shouldn't be paid for any of the work that they undid by this

You expect to work forever after getting paid once?

Depends on the contract. Cemeteries do exactly that.

Differs from country to country I think. And even in some of those countries where grave leases are indefinite, they are eventually going to have to face the fact that as the population of earth grows there will be less and less available space for new graves, and at some point they will likely have to change the rules to allow for grave reuse even in a lot of places that currently have graves last “forever”.

For example: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-28/cemetery-space-is-fil...

Norway:

> § 8. Protection time for grave and burial site.

> A grave can be used for a new burial when at least 20 years have passed since the last burial and the articles of association for the burial site do not stipulate a longer protection period.

> Urns can still be put in a coffin grave even if the protection period according to the first paragraph has not expired.

> When a burial site is closed, it must be protected for at least 40 years after the last burial.

From https://lovdata.no/lov/1996-06-07-32/§8 and translated using Google Translate with additional manual correction of one word that Google Translate misinterpreted.

In a eastern european country the grave is leased for 7 years. After this period if you don't extend the lease, it will be leased to somebody else. You can burry anybody there but i think that there is a period of time before you can burry the next one.

I expect protecting the environment to be the modus operandi.

Lack of funding to do so or simply to save money isn't an excuse to relinquish their liability for damages.

So if you found yourself in the position where if you weren't cleaning up other people's mess then the environment would be damaged, and you weren't being paid, you would keep doing it?

If so, why aren't you putting yourself in to that position right now? And assuming you do start, at what point does it become specifically your obligation such that you think you should get sued if you stop doing it?

It became their obligation when they signed a contract taking responsibility of cleaning the river.

If they wanted or needed to relinquish this responsibility they should of utilized the court system, arbitration, or sold off through bankruptcy the obligation.

If I was in charge of this project would seriously consider as a goal to clean the waters enough to allow the survival and massive reintroduction of Painter's mussel in the city.

Small native species strongly linked with the history of the country. Its direct link with the Flemish painters school, and with Brussels old kitchen would have a strong touristic appeal.

Would have also a educational value creating a sense of proud among citizens, and a big environmental value as umbrella species for introduction of nature in the city and other endangered species of native mussels.

All that they need is to assure to keep a minimum constant quality in the water and suddenly you have an army of small long-lived water plants generating crystalline water for free as result.

A start could be to culture it in temporary flat cages that could be moved to other places in winter or if needed. Could be seen as a live water analysis system that will trigger a fast alarm in the case of toxic waste being dumped to the streams. You could put 'live filter cages' with a lot of painter mussels and maybe a few number of rarer species here and there among them and place it as necessary. Seems feasible.

Are you saying Brussels didn't care because the problem went to a Flemish area? Almost unbelievable to hear about prejudice from a place like Brussels.

Brussels is as much flemish as it is wallonian.

Officially perhaps but nobody in Flanders cares about Brussels.

Belgium is pretty provincial, but there is plenty of improvements in governing that the Brussels area can enact themselves... A simple one would be to merge the 11 communities and not have a different police force govern each side of a main street. Another one would be to have an agreement on how to manage a tunnel that crossed multiple communities.

Brussels is _very_ Belgian. An utterly divided place but not necessarily undemocratic.

Welcome to Belgium! There’s a multitude of examples. :)

Usually problems like this are fixed because the people who vote for you complain. But Belgium, in spite of its small size, has a hypercomplex democratic system which is also fairly split between a "Flemish part" and "Walloon part" who will essentially battle each other.

Another example of the kind of political culture in Belgium: a big reason Belgium has a very high national debt is because in the interest of fairness both sides got treated equally in all things: "waffle-iron politics". What this meant in practice is that of side A got a new bridge somewhere because it was needed, side B also got a new bridge, whether one was really needed or not. This kind of waste occurs everywhere to some degree, but Belgium really perfected it to some kind of (expensive) performance art.

None of this is not a problem unique to Belgium, and occurs in international relations as well, or in the US between states at times. Politicians in Belgium however are too busy fighting on which language to use in Brussels and similar Very Important Issues™ so everything moves at glacial speeds :-/

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffle-iron_politics

2016 was when large shoals of fish were identified, which rather implies fish could ‘survive’ in the river well before that

In downtown Seoul, the Cheongyecheon stream was vaulted and paved over in the 1970s. People more or less entirely forgot it existed. In the early 2000s a program was put in place to tear up the roadway that sat on top of the stream and turn it into an urban park. The program was unpopular at the beginning because it eliminated valuable roads and cost almost a billion dollars to fix.

Today it's enormously popular, has won numerous global awards for urban redevelopment, and offers a wonderful quiet respite from the grind of the city.

Bonus, they found numerous ancient artifacts during the reclamation and integrated many of them into the system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheonggyecheon

But can LA do it with the 710?

I even saw a K-drama which had some key scenes shot on this river. Ji Chang-wook throws his wedding ring into this river and Kim Ji-won recovers it afterwards.

https://youtu.be/n8-VZcycUCA

A similar thing has been done in Utrecht. The city’s moat was paved over ages ago in favour of roads. Now they reopened it for water again: https://www.ontdek-utrecht.nl/de-singel-is-rond/

It’s only a small river, but Tokyo also buried the Shibuya river years ago and most residents forgot about it. They recently uncovered it and are still working around the development around it.

Google’s new (from 2019) Tokyo office is beside the river and named Shibuya Stream after the river.

It still smells pretty bad though :/

"The stream helps to cool down the temperature on the nearby areas by 3.6 °C on average versus other parts of Seoul"

Economy greatly improved, energy requirements decreased, people more happy and healthy and a touristic attraction and nicer city. The project is paying for itself, it seems...

In Dallas, there's an old joke about the fish in the Trinity River swim backwards so they don't get the water in their eyes.

It always amazes me how there's all of the old black&white film of industrial waste just pouring into whatever water was nearby (river,lakes,etc). However, we know it still happens today, they just get more sneaky about it. Again, in Dallas, a slaughter house was found to be dumping blood and waste into the river by a drone flying over head and the color of the water had an obvious color change to it.

Have you seen the video of the US army disposing of 10 tons sodium by dumping it into an eastern Washington lake? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY7mTCMvpEM

Clearly, there's nothing wrong with that, just listen to the music. If it was bad stuff happening in the film, they would have used scary omninous music.

That's the most hilarious video I've seen. The lack of concern for safety, environmental impact etc.. is just amazing. To think how much our views have changed in just 70 years.

Here's another classic one from 50 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6CLumsir34

The lake was already alkali and didn't have fish, mitigating the impact (sodium reacts with water to form lye, but the lake was already basic enough that it likely didn't have a large impact on the PH).

https://cen.acs.org/environment/sustainability/tons-sodium/9...

Very cool, I never honestly thought about the state of the water before the disposal. I'm a bit surprised that fish and amphibians can live in the lake now. Thanks for the link!

Next time on Cody's B Lab...

As compared to other environmental hazards the US army has wrought, this honestly seems relatively well thought-out and harmless.

They should have dropped barrels of sodium on Nazi dams instead of bombs.

Sodium is harder to transport than bombs.

The problem: a war in which you take away the ability to live on the land ("scorched earth") leaves a lot more refugees and resentment behind. Do you really think Germany would be the lighthouse of democracy and economic powerhouse that it is today, had its foundations been destroyed post-WW2?

What happened to Germany (territory shrinkage and economic sanctions) after WW1 incidentally shows this story pretty well.

The army never, in any country, had any problem with pollution.

They are also a lot more likely to treat it so it is safe to put in. Not large company wants to be caught polluting the river, the EPA fines add up and are slowly getting worse.

It's worth it. Montreal and it's surrounding cities neglected the river and canals, which supported local industry and transport, then used to dump toxic soils from digging the subway, or dumping untreated sewer water. After much cleanup, there are many spots where we can swim, kayak or even surf. It has completely changed some neighborhoods (Verdun, Saint-Henri, but also going from Bellerive to Boucherville islands).

I flew into Fukuoka once and out of the window could see beautiful beaches in sheltered shallow bays completely empty. No one on the beach, no one sailing or swimming. Asked my hosts about it and they said no one goes in the water because it's polluted. That's was a damn shame.

Similarly, the Rhine, one of the largest rivers in Germany, recovered well after cleanup efforts in the 1980s: https://whatsupgermany.de/father-rhines-recovery/

And the Ganga. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollution_of_the_Ganges

They're finally trying, but last I checked it remains incredibly polluted.

The Emscher, a tributary to the Rhine that flows through the Ruhr area, is also being restored for around 4.5 billion Euro.

In Boston, similar emotions pertain to the Charles River, which runs through it majestically. It’s currently swimmable on many days after decades of cleanup, but finding a Bostonian who would be comfortable taking a dip wouldn’t be easy. Same situation with the Boston Harbor

I grew up in Boston and actually did some sailing on the river as a kid - we coasted around in Sunfishes for the most part. Unlike literally every other sailing instruction course I ever took there was no forced capsizing tutorial to learn how to uncapisize a Sunfish - mostly because nobody's parents would ever sign onto a waiver that said "Oh btw, we're going to briefly dunk your kid into the Charles".

I love the Charles River and spent a lot of time growing up around it in Cambridge and city-side on the Esplanade. I've got great memories from both Pops and pop concerts in the Hatch Shell - but yea, no where in those memories is anything about voluntarily going into the river - avoiding even dipping a toe into that was ingrained into us at a young age.

Anecdata time. I am from elsewhere so I didn't have that sort of context. I had a chance to be rowing on the Charles at some point but forgot to bring water with me so I just drank from the river with no ill effect. Water seemed pretty clear and fresh. I also remember around that time there would be periodic news praising the river cleanup success so I probably never got to see it dirty.

And you're saying you're currently not a Zombie? Oh vanish the thought!

Actually, yea, I think the river is quite clean. Especially now that I've seen bodies of water that have an oily sheen on them - and ones that sting if you get them on your skin. I think I'd probably be pretty adverse to swimming in the Charles - but I'd definitely prefer it any day over False Creek in Vancouver.

My biggest concern with questionable water these days is always the bed they rest on - usually the water tends to be pretty clear even in heavily polluted areas (though oil floats so some forms of pollution are quite contrary to that) - but all the really dangerous stuff tends to slowly separate out and settle on the bottom. It's when kids get in and kick up the muck at the bottom of one of these rivers that I get most concerned.

Also yea - this is pretty much all anecdotal as well.

Some forms of environmental pollution or toxicity, like bacteria, can result in an infection that makes you sick, or not. Other forms, like heavy metals (common in industrial sites), can cause serious chronic problems through prolonged or repeated exposure, but are not necessarily going to cause much harm from a single low-ish dose.

I capsized in the Charles one summer around 2007 or so (and swallowed some water) with the MIT Sailing Club. I didn't have any immediate ill effects but about 5 minutes after I got back to the dock I was afflicted by the most painful earsplitting headache I have ever experienced even to this day. I curled up in a ball and thought I was dying of a stroke.

The Charles was cleaned up by 2007 and was not dirty.

Not sure if you've ever seen this, but former (Massachusetts) Governor Weld staged a little publicity stunt several years ago by jumping into the Charles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiGbMmqrYrY

I spent July 4th, 1993 on the Esplanade in Boston. I won’t forget the loud groan from the crowd around me followed by collective “ewwws” at the sight of some drunk people on a boat falling into the Charles.

I grew up in the Boston area in the 60s, before the Charles River was dammed to prevent Boston Harbor tides from flushing into the Charles Basin. Driving along Storrow Drive at low tide in summer was a malodorous experience.

Then in the 80s, long after the dam was put in, they had enormous air bubblers in the Charles Basin to stir up the stagnant bottom water. Fun to sail through.

Thanks for introducing me to the word "malodorous"

There's even a well-known song about the Charles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62XRy-jFCm8

London has many "vanished" rivers, the most famous of which is the Fleet.

In earlier times it was nice enough that a royal palace was built on its banks, but by the Restoration it had become what Neal Stephenson's _Baroque Cycle_ described as a "river of shit" (the palace had been converted into a prison by then, too).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Fleet

'the palace had been converted into a prison by then, too'

So considerate!

Well I would also be apprehensive about swimming in a river described as "swimmable on many days".

Merry Christmas! Happy New Year! Otherwise, get the f out of the water.

Even most beaches on the ocean have days with no swimming flags caused by algae bloom, storm drain off, excess sewage release in the area, etc.

That seems like it must be an exaggeration. Not once in my entire life have I seen a beach closed due to any of these factors. I know it happens, but I don't think it's as common as you make it sound. The only time I've ever seen a beach closed was due to rough surf.

Of course, I don't claim to have been to most of the beaches out there, but I've been to a few! Have I just been getting really lucky?

I've been going to the beach several times a week for about 13 years, even during winter. Never seen it closed. They monitor water quality regularly and the results are readily available.

You're lucky. I live near the Baltic Sea, a relatively shallow sea with a very narrow link to the ocean, and agricultural runoff and sewage from 100 million people drain into it. We have very regular algae blooms, typically late summer when the water warms up sufficiently (for some reason, even though it was very hot, very little this summer).

The sewage problem is largely solved nowadays, thanks to modern sewage treatment plants, but thanks to the disastrous EU agricultural policy (CAP) there has been no improvement at all in the agricultural runoff for over 20 years.

Happens enough times in LA to have a page that tracks it: http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/phcommon/public/eh/water_qu...

Sure there are always exceptions, and it may have been just some unfortunate phrasing, all I know is that the phrasing explicitly didn't specify that the river being unswimmable was at all an exception.

It's like if you asked a lifeguard if it was safe to swim and they replied "Many people survive".

I didn't grow up in Boston but spent a lot of time sailing (and accordingly, a decent amount swimming) in the Charles River Basin in the past several years (go Tech Sailing!). Only once ever had a bad experience - got terribly sick for 24 hrs after a windy windsurfing day where I was in the water more than I was on the board. I was told this was "river fever" and it happens from time to time! Otherwise a great body of water.

The days the Charles is unswimmable is a few hot summer days after rainstorms (and in the winters when it freezes up!). In the summer the water is warm enough and the runoff after storms brings in enough nutrients from the city that cyanobacteria grow like crazy and create a paralysis risk. On these days the Boston DCR does a pretty good job making sure everyone knows to stay dry for the day.

The water in the Charles feels slimey. Like it has a thin microcoat of grossness on top.

A map would be nice. More info https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covering_of_the_Senne

Also: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senne_(river)

In a way Copenhagen has done a similar thing. The harbour used to be a terrible mess in 1995 with sewage and whatnot going in but these days the water is so clean that swimming in the harbour became a thing. Last year the Diesel harbour busses were replaced by electric ships and the seafront is a place where tons of locals hang out and enjoy the city in summer.

Maybe, just maybe, we'll be able to uncover Ladegårds Å and get rid of the terrible concrete street mess that is Åboulevard.

The sewer museum mentioned in the article is excellent. Easily on par with the Musée des égouts in Paris. I highly recommend it.

The south fork of the Chicago river was called bubbly creek. Because cow carcasses dumped there by the slaughter houses caused bubble to form — 50 years later!

I live next to the river, it's open here. But honestly it's just brown water and I have never seen a fish in there for 20 years. I still see pipes coming from houses into that river, so I wouldn't be surprised if some households their toilet water still flushes to it :P

This whole project feels completely useless to me. The part of the river they are uncovering is right next to the canal of Burssels and in the middle of an industrial zone. https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9027531,4.4087939,15.97z?hl=...

Other parts of the river they are discussing in the article are all right next to the canal and in either entirely build up or industrial areas.

The "dead" part of the river they are talking about is the one running under Brussels. Ther's always been an water cleaning station downstreem of Brussels so that Flanders didn't really get all the shit from Brussels.

Wow. Just wow. That any money would be spent on something like this in a city like that.

Brussels is the saddest, most dilapidated, neglected western European capital I’ve ever been to and I’ve been to many.

I mean it’s so filthy, so filthy that bud drivers refused to park their buses at one of the biggest train stations in the city because of the amount of human excrement from the homeless population.

Sure, dig up a river famous for being an open sewer… boggles the mind.

Free the River Fleet!

Currently the River Fleet isdiverted into a sewer, but it sometimes overflows into the Thames, or backs up into office basements…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Fleet

Looks lovely from the old paintings, there’s supposed to be barge moorings in what is now the sewer.

The Thames overflow comes out under Blackfriars bridge, however the the Thames Tideway tunnel is being built to reduce overflow events:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Tideway_Scheme

So there’s the Crossrail tunnel, Thames Tideway tunnel, and the recently completed National Grid tunnel to carry extra electricity through London.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Power_Tunnels

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