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Show HN: We'll save your ass one day

custodly.ssl.dotcloud.com

12 pointshagyma26 comments

Oh, hai.

I tried this idea in application to the graphic design area specifically targeting logo and brand designers [0]. It was called CertTime and it failed spectacularly. It was pretty much like selling insurance to the ignorant.

The actual idea got substantial support of the Logopond community when I first described it [1]. I also solved the usability and trust issue by outsourcing time stamping and actual signing to VeriSign. The service took the client's file, made a self-extracting archive out of it and then signed the exe with Microsoft's AuthentiCode [2]. Checking the time stamp was as easy as right-clicking on the .exe and checking the Digital Signature tab. I think this idea was a stroke of genius... but in the end it did not matter.

I got ZERO traction. In retrospect I should've paid closer attention to the lack of interest I got on Typophile [3][4], where the community is more mature and less excitable than on Logopond.

That said, there is a number of companies that offer similar service - Surety, GuardTime, Recomobo, Digistamp, MyOws, etc. Some are based around a technical solution [5] while most are based around "we are lawyers, we swear it was done on Jan 1, 1913, and you must trust us" kind of approach. MyOws would be the most active in consumer segment, and they have accumulated their current user base through iPad giveaways and what not.

Finally, I want to say - good luck, guys, hope you can pull it off. There is a need for a very simple digital notary service, but it comes with the need to educate your target audience. I was not up for that, but perhaps you are.

[0] http://swapped.cc/certtime and http://certtime.com

[1] http://pondpad.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3578

[2] http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms537361(v=vs.85).as...

[3] http://typophile.com/node/62669

[4] http://typophile.com/node/63838

[5] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3161.txt

(edit) Oh, by the way. Regarding the "what is it in you" point. My idea was to establish a sizable userbase of people routinely using the service (in part by integrating with various graphic design galleries and portfolios around the web), use that to demonstrate the consumer-level need for trusted timestamping to VeriSign and other companies and then try and sell the company to them. See, they are in a situation when a lot of money and effort is spent on deploying and running timestamping infrastructure (for example to support codesigning), but they have no way of charging for its services directly. If one can prepare and proof a paid market for them, they could not not be interested.

Trying to charge people directly for this sort of service is unrealistic at best.

(edit) Dug up the Q&A, which took me several weeks to put together - http://swapped.cc/certtime/faq.png - it has some lesser obvious points to consider and mull over.

Thanks for describing your experience. This site really was some kind of a hackathlon for us. Not to mention the need for it.

Sometimes I was in the need to secure a document, sealed at a lawyer. My clients wanted to be sure that the information won't change in case we have to say good bye. :)

Anyway... This is our very first public product made for anyone. I hope you guys like the idea. We can take it to any level if needed. :)

With all due respect - your service as it exists is completely useless. You either need to be prepared to go to the court to testify for other people or you need to provide reliable, court-tested technical solution for trusted time-stamping.

Basically consider this - if the push comes to shove and someone is getting served C&D letter or worse yet getting sued over their idea, how exactly does your service help them? Or even how would you use in such situation, since you said you built it around your personal need?

Oooooo... that's way too serious. I will be more than happy if I can just show you as goodfellas what have i thought of a little earlier.

And again... this is a concept, that maybe useless, but it was a lof of fun to create and learn from comments it receives.

Reminds me of the old "Poor Man's Patent": Write your idea, invention, etc. on a piece of paper, and mail it to yourself in a sealed (possibly certified) letter as proof of date of invention.

Unfortunately that, and likely this, will provide little legal protection:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/innovation/the-poor-mans-pa...

Bragging rights, however, are now yours for posterity, which might have its own value to many - just don't think this will help you out in court, particularly without third-party auditing (not that that would help much, either).

True!

This actually is the poor entrepreneur's experimental patent.

We should settle this case outsite the courtroom ;)

While I understood (I think) the purpose of the site, I couldn't help but hold a reserved amount of skepticism. "What's in it for you?" underlined my consideration of using this service. It appears to be free. I don't see any ads that might supply you with ad revenue. I'm keenly aware it costs money to purchase a domain, host a site and buy an SSL certificate so obviously you'll incur costs--so how is it you plan to recoup them. I can't imagine I'm being provided a service out of the generosity of your kind heart. So then I start thinking, maybe they'll charge you to unlock it? Or worse, maybe this is not a protection service at all, maybe it's a mining scam, to steal ideas.

Perhaps I'm being overly skeptical, but I thought I'd share my thoughts so that you might be aware of them, and figure out a way to address them to alleviate some paranoia of your potential customers.

Here is my corresponding blog post: http://hagyma.posterous.com/entering

We are totally working on something else by the way... As you see in my blog post, I saw one of my ideas appear on another site... so we came up with this concept to save my ass on the first place. :)

And using the generous offer from dotcloud for beta users, this with the ssl is hosted for free.

What a brilliant way to steal ideas, upload your best stuff to me :)

Thanks! If the concept works out though, we'll implement some client side encryption, so we won't be able to see what you submit.

There are no attachments yet, but if there will be, you can just have your own way of encryption and load a single file up... but that won't prove you later on...

Not easy...

I can't figure out the point of this website.

From what I can tell, you enter in your idea, and it basically timestamps it for you. Then if someone else makes it big with the same idea, you can say "Hey I thought of that first."

You seem to be saying that the website will help prevent the idea from "getting out" before I can implement it. But I don't see how entering my idea to a website will stop other people from finding out about it or independently thinking it.

I'm confused, and could use some more explaining about what this is and why I need it.

I think it's for things like copyright claims. You upload something and you can prove that it's been there since whenever and that you haven't tampered with it.

This site is not a time machine... too bad... but... Let's say you have an idea. Obviously somewhere else on the planet anybody can come up with the same thing same idea.

That other guy publishes it first while you are still in the making. If you save your idea here, you'll be able to prove that you did not steel it.

It is just a concept site. Tell me why it sucks! :)

A truly useful trusted timestamping system should prove that Alice said x at y time. By asking only for name/email on your form, I don't see any way of cryptographically verifying Alice's identity.

You are right.

This is one of the reasons why this concept site is a tiny, tiny idea saver, that may save a couple of rookies along the way.

I can't see custodly in a defense case just yet.

Is that an advert in your captcha? Seriously?

Crappy, ha? I saw it over on techcrunch the other day. Solvemedia. I thought we should try it out.

Why?

mostly it looks really bad... but sometimes it surprises you with a logo :)

When you click reload on the captcha, it just loads an iframe with the captcha text in a div. (div#slog)

I may be not enough informed but if someone create a patent one of your idea, even a website like that won't do anything?

If you have proof that you had something working before a patent was filed, you are saved I think.

Still, legal issues are hard to crack... we should just keep thinking on how to avoid lawsuits and patent trolls.

Why is this better than encrypting a text file with my idea written down and sending it to myself via email?

You can manipulate emails later on, while on this exerimental site, your released info has the lock up date, so visitors can be sure, it has not been changed since creation.

It should be "lose", not "loose". Please fix that.

Thanks! Will be fixed in a minute! dotcloud push :)

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