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Comment by neverywhere | Hacker News Reader

China is pretty scary in this way. The Han ethnic group is the majority in population and leadership and it is enacting policies to suppress the population numbers of non Han-ethnic groups in the country.

They do it via birth control and family separation so it happening slowly but it is still decreasing the population of non-Han ethnic groups in comparison to the Han ethnic group.

When this was done elsewhere it was declared as the worst form of racism/ethnocide/genocide, but in China it is accepted standard practice.

Imagine in Donald Trump wanted non-whites to be forced on birth control in the US or if Israel wanted its Arab population on birth control -- there would be uproars and rightly so. But somehow China is getting away with this behaviour towards its ethnic minorities.

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>Imagine if Israel

You don't have to imagine.

https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-ethiopians-coerced-into-bir...

The fuller quote that you conveniently leftout for it to match your sources is:

> if Israel wanted its Arab population on birth control

(emphasis mine)

So, for a start the article is about something completely different.

Secondly the article seems pretty open about the fact that the claims are dubious at best.

I guess it's ok because it is not as if Arabs are being forced on birth control, only Black Jews.

Thank you for emphasizing the key point.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2013-01-28/israel-admits-injecti...

ok sure, replace arab with black then. This whole thread is about poor treatment of ethnic minorities, and the point of the comment I replied to is that we wouldn't tolerate forced sterilization of an ethnic minority group from a country like Israel. My response was that Israel has already done this, and we all seemed to tolerate it just fine.

My point is that you respond to one claim with something else while cutting the context and pretending it is the same.

And as I already pointed out the article is pretty clear that there isn't actually convincing evidence, especially not against Israel (it seems to be about a possible rogue NGO or something?)

>My point is that you respond to one claim with something else while cutting the context and pretending it is the same.

Here's the bit I responded to.

>Imagine in Donald Trump wanted non-whites to be forced on birth control in the US or if Israel wanted its Arab population on birth control -- there would be uproars and rightly so.

I don't think that questions changes much if you replace "Arab" with any other ethnic minority group in Israel. Black Ethiopians are an ethnic minority group in Israel, and they were given birth control against their will by the state of Israel.

>And as I already pointed out the article is pretty clear that there isn't actually convincing evidence, especially not against Israel (it seems to be about a possible rogue NGO or something?)

Israeli officials admitting they did indeed give them birth control isn't strong evidence against Israel? What about the source below?

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-ethiopians-fool...

> there isn't actually convincing evidence, especially not against Israel

There seems to be a very obvious bias in your comments. This is a fact accepted by the Israeli government that I have already pointed out to you, but you keep ignoring it.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2013-01-28/israel-admits-injecti...

The reason companies and celebrities on Twitter don’t denounce (as they would if this were happening in Israel or Italy), is that one, it would impact earnings and two, they hold China as different enough that they’re different and they can do different things and we won’t be too bothered by it.

> birth control

If you're referring to the now-obsolete one-child policy, IIRC, they do this to all ethnicity. The ethnic minority usually got more slack when the government enforced this policy.

> family separation

Mind elaborate a bit?

He's referring to the forced/coerced use of IUDs, which are technically birth control.

I was referring to this: https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53220713 : "China forcing birth control on Uighurs to suppress population, report says".

https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we... : China cuts Uighur births with IUDs, abortion, sterilization

Not OP, but China does many shady things in the Uighur region. For example:

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/ch...

> The ethnic minority usually got more slack when the government enforced this policy.

More importantly, the policy officially allowed minorities to have two children, which is very much the opposite of driving down minority numbers relative to Han numbers.

There is a popular poem reflecting the Han's view of what their government thinks of them:

一等外人，二等官

三等少民，四等汉

>> China is pretty scary in this way. The Han ethnic group is the majority in population and leadership and it is enacting policies to suppress the population numbers of non Han-ethnic groups in the country.

Factually incorrect. It is the opposite. Quite many ethnic groups had more right than the Han majority.

One example:

"The policy also allowed exceptions for some other groups, including ethnic minorities."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy

It’s worse than birth control. There are concentration camps in xinjiang. Called “re-education” or “vocational training.” There are many places to begin educating yourself on this (not directed at the person I’m replying to, but to the downvoters). You can start here if you like. Hrw is human rights watch. https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/19/break-their-lineage-br...

> enacting policies to suppress the population numbers of non Han-ethnic groups in the country

It is terrible.

It is also common, although thankfully not so much in the 21st century as in previous.

Of the top of my head... Americans, British, Canadians, Australians, Spanish South America, Germany, Russia, Various Balkan countries. My African history isn't very good, but I'd imagine there too.

And these are just examples of state-sponsored and facilitated, non-genocidal (so leaving out direct murder) attempts to shift the majority ethnicity within an area.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_frontier https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_... https://australianstogether.org.au/discover/australian-histo... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Uruguay https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Poland_(1939%E... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Balkans

This is nonresponsive nonsense. First, you can't just link half of wikipedia and assume the correct supporting argument must be in there somewhere. There's a huge difference between different types of population control measures.

But more to your direct point: the CCP is engaging in forced sterilizations right now in 2021. See sibling comments with links.

I linked "half of wikipedia", because that's in how many countries changing majority ethnicities has been state policy.

I'm not one to often bring whataboutism into arguments involving China, but I think it's an important point of context that many of the world's now-stable countries either perpetrated same or were victims of it.

It doesn't begin to excuse or justify it, but it does provide some perspective on the darker parts of our own history.

These arguments are not unknown in the discourse in western media, but it's always good to fact-check. Do you have any report or data on these at hand? I'd expect amnesty international for example to have complied info on such cases.

AP News article on birth suppression: https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we...

Thanks, this looks really well-researched!

"an AP investigation based on government statistics, state documents and interviews with 30 ex-detainees, family members and a former detention camp instructor. "

There are increasing number of reports in Canada that Indigenous Women were forcefully sterilized in the last few decades. Women who gave birth in hospitals had their tubes tied after giving birth. I agree this is a one of "the worst forms of racisim/ethonicide/genocide". And yes, I dont understand why more (white) Canadians are not aware of this, and why there has not been a larger out cry over this. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/report-indigenous-w...

[Edit] I am against forced sterilization by anyone on to any one. I want to highlight that sterilization has happened in recent years in Canada. As the message above me points out, there is very little outcry in North America. Here is a data point where sterilization has happened in Canada and there is very little public outcry or knowledge of the situation.

This is important and equivalent. Forced sterilizations of minority ethnic groups by the majority ethnic group is a crime against humanity.

yea exactly thing is most people don't want that to happen today.. in Canada.. and the government also.. nor do we want it to happen in west Taiwan... i don't get these peoples arguments that because other people did evil crap west Taiwan should be allowed to do it as well? is that what your trying to say?

I didn't intend this to be an argument FOR forced medical procedures. I think forced medical procedures of any type are wrong!

I wanted to add a data point that forced birth control happens in Canada. Forced birth control is not something limited to the CPP handbook.

but you agree it should not happen or are you saying because it happens in Canada, we should be fine with it in happening in West Taiwan? whats your opinion on forced organ harvesting? and slave labour ? i mean slavery did happen in the past and now most places ban it but since it did happen its fine for West Taiwan to do it? or Libya?

i just don't get the argument that because X happened in X place, people from X place can't be against it in another country? when they are against it happening anywhere, including their country.

I don't agree with forced medical procedures at all. I think the world should be upset with Canada, with CPP, and all the other cultures who are doing it. I agree, regardless of your cultural background, you have every right to be upset with genocide/racisim/terrible thing in another country and in your home country.

I don't want to tamper anyone's disgust. I would like to add that it happens in my home country and it breaks my heart.

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