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Comment by AlbertCory | Hacker News Reader

People who say "they can just build their own search engine" should try Apple Maps.

Yeah, it's not bad, but from my 18 months in Google Maps, I know there's a very long tail you have to get through. They have huge teams working on problems so small you wouldn't even realize they were problems.

The first 90% of maps (or search) is easy. It's the 2nd and 3rd and 10th 90% that sucks up all the time.

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Am I crazy or are the people saying that getting the headline mixed up? Google is the one paying Apple fifteen billion dollars here, not the other way around. Why would Apple want off that gravy train? I’m sure they could make some search engine, but they’d have to be better than Google at monetizing it for it to be worth the effort.

I think the argument goes: Google is paying a massive $15B (or ca. 15% of Apple's profits) AND they are only doing that because there is more than $15B in value to them.

So if default iOS search has value in excess of $15B, Apple should just build their own and capture all of that value.

It's not an argument I agree with, and not one I think they will pursue.

Apple's P/E ratio is roughly 29. So, if you assume that the $15bn is pretty much all profit (for simplicity here remember), then the value of that for AAPL is roughly $35bn in market cap.

So it takes a really good reason to kick out Google from this situation.

> So it takes a really good reason to kick out Google from this situation.

Yes. The argument is that google makes more than 15b off that position, so the income has to be worth it by definition.

Of course, apple won't likely monetize it as well, so it'll be hard to justify that.

> Apple's P/E ratio is roughly 29. So, if you assume that the $15bn is pretty much all profit (for simplicity here remember), then the value of that for AAPL is roughly $35bn in market cap.

Not sure where you get $35B from. 15B * 29 = $435B

Typo. The $ was supposed to be 4. Thanks for catching that

If your employer is paying you 250k a year you shod definitely build something like this business and capture all that value!)

> People who say "they can just build their own search engine" should try Apple Maps.

... to be validated by concrete demonstration that Apple is capable of building an excellent service if they put their mind to it...

Excellent? It works but Google are pretty obviously the top dog here

Is this true? Apple Maps came out with a feature a couple years ago where it knows which intersections are stop lights v.s. stop signs v.s. uncontrolled side streets. Rather than saying “in 1000 feet turn left”, they say “at the light, turn left”. As opposed to “go past this light, then turn left,” or “at the stop sign, turn left. Then, turn right onto <street name>.” If you glance at the screen while this is happening, the upcoming intersections helpfully have the appropriate stoplight/stopsign/etc graphic on them. They’ve found a way to communicate instructions such that you never have to worry about lane positioning, or not being ready for the next turn.

Mind you, I juggle between Apple Maps and Google Maps on an iphone, so maybe Google’s features are different on Android. But this was the feature that finally got me using Apple Maps by default, and last I checked Google still hasn’t implemented anything comparable on Apple.

Google Maps does a similar thing with POI's like Starbucks or gas stations.

I always struggled with that. Way easier to visually identify a landmark that's on the road than adjacent to it, IMO.

Using Apple Maps in the few spots they actually care to fully support, and using Apple Maps anywhere else in the world is a very different experience.

While Google is able to deliver more or less the same product almost anywhere.

Google and Apple have been playing cat and mouse with their map data for a while now, with Google's newest version only existing in four cities: London, New York, San Francisco, and Tokyo.

Are those the only cities Google cares to fully support, or does creating new and more detailed map data take a while to roll out?

Apple Maps is a complete joke in India for instance. I’ve heard of stories of people getting lost because they followed it, then they open Google Maps and get the actual directions. Apple Maps is also almost never updated here. Good luck finding new places, instead you will find places that were closed 2 years ago.

I like its new UI but the most crucial parts of the Map such as directions are so horribly wrong that it would frustrate you.

I know it was trash when it came out, but Apple Maps surprisingly seems to often find significantly shorter routes than Google. Google Maps always tells me to go to the nearest interstate while Apple Maps seems better at recognizing if a local highway is actually faster.

I have to double check the routing on both to make sure they are not making me go through 20 traffic lights to have a 10% probability of saving 45 seconds and 90% probability of wasting 2 min.

I don't doubt that it's usable in the areas where Apple cares to make it so.

But as the comments make clear, it's all about the number of 9s in the reliability. If they're 99.9% reliable, that means 1 out of 1000 data points are wrong. You will definitely hit a wrong one. If it's 99.9999%, then it's 1 out of 1,000,000. You might not. Adding those last few 9s are incredibly costly.

I don't think this is an entirely apt comparison.

You actually mention that even Google Maps has problems. I live in the Bay Area and have constantly experienced problems with it, including it directing me to a block or two behind the actual destination, directing me to more congested routes, etc.

I think when Apple Maps first launched it definitely was not good at all, but at this point they're roughly the same. Neither are perfect and that's fine, but comparing them as being drastically different levels of quality seems a bit far-fetched, to me at least.

Google Maps may have problems, but Apple Maps still has _problems_. Apple Maps still regularly takes me down roads closed for months, and has huge omissions in the business data set. One glaring example of the feature gap is apple maps on desktop versus google maps.

I don't think Apple Maps is bad, btw, and i think it's very good that they're trying to nip at Google's heels. But it's not even close.

Apple Maps is on desktop, do you mean on web? Either way, try searching on DuckDuckGo: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=directions+new+york+to+los+angeles...

I guess I meant desktop web vs mobile web. And yeah, that's how I use it, through DDG. It's visually low density (in a bad way), and satellite view is terribly slow. Among other things. But I do appreciate that they're trying - Google shouldn't own maps

A great example: in Austin, most surface roads’ speed limits were reduced by 5mph a year ago. Apple has yet to update these in their maps, despite one of their offices being just outside the city.

Apple maps are horrible in Croatia and Slovenia. Routing is bad, and the actual layers with info are a barren wasteland.

Apple maps are basically only a thing in the US, specifically in NY/SF and that's about it.

I find Apple Maps totally fine and basically on par with Google maps today. It was indeed trash when it came out but I use it exclusively now and haven’t had any issues in a couple years. My one gripe is the deep Yelp integration.

Where do you live?

Apple is taking steps to move away from Yelp:

https://www.macrumors.com/2021/04/22/apple-maps-ratings-plac...

Thank goodness.

I think the biggest issue with Apple building a search engine is that it doesn't fit their brand and product suite.

Building a search engine comparable to Google requires utilizing tons of data and personalization in a way that Apple has never been comfortable with.

Apple is the company I pay more for and trust with privacy and not needing to spy on me for the sake of giving me personalized ads, while Google is the exact opposite.

It's out of date, but still an interesting read: https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat

>>The first 90% of maps (or search) is easy. It's the 2nd and 3rd and 10th 90% that sucks up all the time.

OK, let's look at it differently: was Apple smart to do Maps or not? Think of pros and cons and we know money means nothing. Apple has so much money they can spend $20 Billion in a quarter on it/them if they wanted.

They could do the same with a "good enough" SE and then let the heavy users set Google as default. Did they lose any users from Apple Maps?

Apple plays with lots of money and lots of time. They're definitely okay taking a decade and tons of $$$ to catch up to where Google is.

Another relevant point to consider is "is that 10% worth it?". The answer is absolutely yes - trust in a maps app is critical.

If they stopped sticking with Yelp, they would fare far better in my book. Reviews are a big part of what makes Google Maps awesome... for travel I use Apple Maps because the GPS voice on Google Maps is obnoxious and I don't like the UI that much, but Google Maps has a big win with reviews.

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