Apple employees organizing for 'systemic change' in workplace | Hacker News Reader

Apple employees organizing for 'systemic change' in workplace

thehill.com

59 pointsevo_929 comments

"The truth is that for many Apple workers -- a reality faced disproportionately by our Black, Indigenous, and other colleagues from minoritized racial, gender, and historically marginalized groups of people"

Chances are these Apple employees are mostly middle-upper class trust fund whites who went to expensive colleges, often exclusive ivy leagues. They use emotionally charged language and minorities as a shield against criticism. Saying that you're doing something on behalf of the marginalized is highly effective at disarming people.

"we are faced with a pattern of isolation, degradation, and gaslighting."

This is also a disarming tactic. In reality they are gaslighting us.

"When our stories are collected and presented together, they help expose persistent patterns of racism, sexism, inequity, discrimination, intimidation, suppression, coercion, abuse, unfair punishment, and unchecked privilege."

A bog standard laundry list of critical social justice language. That "unchecked privilege" makes the list of grievances betrays any possible seriousness.

"aren't all given equal rights."

Which rights are they missing exactly?

> They use emotionally charged language and minorities as a shield against criticism.

Not only against criticism, but against actual understanding.

See: the usage of recently coined, or at least re-popularized words ("minoritized", "gaslighting") that are weighty with implication, and light on concrete claims or accusations.

> Which rights are they missing exactly?

Forcing this explanation would move the debate into an area they worry they can't win, so they couch their complaints in -isms and -ations, and go no further.

Like most people, I know that racism, sexism and inequality exist. But they are not magic words that absolve you of actually making an argument.

It's infuriating, to be frank. The issues are too important not to have a serious, sober debate about how to address them. We just can't seem to get there.

> racism, sexism and inequality exist

At the very least, the burden of proof must be on the accuser to point out where and how they are taking place.

The well-known parable of the hare and the scorpion - or the man/woman and the snake or the same thing in any of its guises - comes to mind here: Apple thought it could appease the mob by playing the DIE [1] game, flying a few rainbow flags and saying some words in the required lingo. The mob handily made use of Apple's eagerness to seem hip to the new thing by launching an inside attack on... Apple, the company which hired them to stave off just those attacks. This is neither unexpected nor undeserved, in fact I'd go so far as saying that any company which tries to appease the mob deserves to get burnt by it. The lesson to be learned here is not that these companies are rife with all those oppressive things they are being accused of by the mob, nor that the companies necessarily deserve to be burnt. It is that they should not ever think they can get away from the mob by giving in to its demands. Just like those who live by the sword run the risk of dying by it, those who invite the mob often end up succumbing to it.

[1] Diversity, Inclusion, Equity

Please don’t let critical race theory in. I’m so dissatisfied that I have to spend so much of my time discussing identity politics, as opposed to... you know building cool stuff

This is what happens when you stop hiring on merit and allow too much dead weight in your organization.

I'd say it is a natural consequence of specifically hiring people who have been trained to look for evidence of discrimination and racism everywhere, no matter how slight.

Not being cynical, I am genuinely curious. As most of these employees are based in California, which is an at-will-employment state, what is stopping Apple from terminating the ones making the noise but under the guise of poor performance (PIP) like most of the other FAANGs do?

Disclaimer, I am not a lawyer:

California labor law prevents employers from firing you for engaging in "protected activity" [0][1], which includes labor organizing and forms of political speech. They can still fire you for a long list of other reasons, though.

[0] https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/Glossary.asp?Button1=P

[1] https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/labor/harassment/political-reta...

I understand that part, you cannot terminate someone for organizing. There have been posts here about Amazon and Google using a PIP as a "legal" means to terminate someone, so I'm curious if a large portion of "loud" individuals at Apple are suddenly going to have productivity issues all at the same time

I wonder how many Apple employees with real greivances about long hours, illegal labor practices, harassment, etc. will keep quiet given this website's thorough use of culture war vocabulary. I've experienced bad working conditions at big tech companies (Amazon mainly), but would never lend strength to a movement that so clearly exists as a vehicle for identity politics.

I'm also a little (not a lot) surprised at the lack of clear examples. The language is 100% vague accusations of abuse and mistreatment. Did the people who created this website experience any of it firsthand? Why can't they be more specific? Why didn't they gather more concrete examples before going public?

Oh the old “I would vote left, but this minorities shit is driving me away”, and “this discrimination is all made up”.

Here's the main quote from the article:

“For too long, Apple has evaded public scrutiny. The truth is that for many Apple workers -- a reality faced disproportionately by our Black, Indigenous, and other colleagues from minoritized racial, gender, and historically marginalized groups of people -- the culture of secrecy creates an opaque, intimidating fortress,”

The organizing site, from yesterday:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28280134

The factories with suicide nets to prevent "worker" suicide from awful conditions building Apple devices should be more than enough to shutdown Apple. Workplace issues in the US are the cherry on top of the putrid Apple sunday of human rights violations. Antitrust, spying and a litany of other wrongs should be considered before attempting change vs total liquidation.

Apple isn’t directly abusing Foxconn employees, Foxconn is. It’s a problem with the Chinese working culture and how easy it is there to abuse workers. They would have to move operations to a different country at this point.

That still doesn’t excuse the juicy hypocrisy.

Apple demanded the nets, meaning they were an active participant in the abuse: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1357833/Apple-respo...

First, the rate of suicides at these factories is less than that of the background population in China.

Second, Apple is far from the only company that uses Foxconn for manufacturing. Other major customers of theirs are:

  * Acer
  * Amazon
  * Apple
  * Cisco
  * Dell
  * Google
  * HP
  * Intel
  * Lenovo
  * Microsoft
  * Motorola
  * Nintendo
  * Sony

Do you suggest we shut down all of these companies too?

Consider that Apple has publicly done more to ensure reasonable working conditions for their third-party suppliers than the rest of the companies on this list combined.

"Do you suggest we shut down all of these companies too?"

Yes. Allowing it because "everyone else is doing it" doesn't make it right.

See my first point for how that falls apart too.

Suicide stats are particularly odd in China, go to the statistics section:

https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_China

Also, looking at:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

"The total number of Foxconn employee suicides is unknown."

If the total deaths are not reported how can we compare?

> If the total deaths are not reported how can we compare?

So if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying we don't have to data to even determine whether or not there's a problem.

At the same time, you're willing to shutter the vast majority of the world's consumer computer hardware businesses over it?

Are you saying this isn't a problem? https://www.scmp.com/article/733389/struggle-foxconn-girl-wh...

You're the one saying we don't have the data. And trying to backpedal your way out it by highlighting a single sob story.

Now that the veil has been lifted, you will start hearing about a lot more abuses at Apple. Unfortunately before their recent announcement about photo scanning, any mention of issues with Apple would get you quickly downvoted. How much more proof do you need that Apple is primarily a cult?

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