Comment by snowwrestler | Hacker News Reader

Comment by snowwrestler | Hacker News Reader

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Honda does not give me an SDK and API to run arbitrary software on the computers in my Civic either. But obviously I own it.

The state of federal law is that you own your iPhone and can run whatever software you want on it. Jailbreaking is legal, largely because you own your iPhone. The law just doesn’t force Apple to make it easy for you.

On a practical note, I’m interested in thoughts on why Apple might try to lock down multicast, specifically, but I have to scroll through dozens of comments arguing about a software system (iOS + App Store) that is now over 13 years old. Is there anyone on HN today who does not understand how iPhone software works? Why do we have to rehash a decade-old conversation on every single iPhone/iOS Apple story?

EDIT - Since I’m still in the edit window, I might as well link to a comment that seems actually useful and relevant to this blog post:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28287064

There are other interesting and useful comments if you scroll down…

> Why do we have to rehash a decade-old conversation on every single iPhone/iOS Apple story?

Because people are mad - still, and baffled - still, that Apple is successful and prosperous despite not catering to the niche needs of your average HN commenter.

There's also an easy solution: don't buy an iOS device.

You would think so, but the repeated comments you see in every Apple story makes it seem that folks cannot get over the very existence and success of Apple's device and app store philosophy enough to let any other discussion or criticism emerge.

> Why do we have to rehash a decade-old conversation

Because there's new people in the world every day and they need to hear this important conversation, which is new for them. If you are already aware, it does no harm to you to just ignore the conversation.

Honda could decide that every new sold car in future will phone home at the press of the ignition and check if the driver should be allowed to start the car. The software techniques to turn every car sold into a leasing service is not difficult to implement.

If there is such software is inside your civic then no, you don't own it. Honda does. The word "ownership" is in part defined by the ability to exert control. If Honda controls who drives the car, where, how and when, the owner is indisputable Honda.

This is why right to repair laws are important. If you buy the hardware, you should implicitly have the right to modify the software in-so-far as it is physically possible given the hardware package purchased.

It's entirely within the rights of a company to lock down their hardware if that's how they sell it to you, but it should be equally within the rights of the hardware owner to bypass those "protections". If Honda decides to lock ignition behind an arbitrary clearance check (pulling a John Deere), they shouldn't be able to retaliate if that lock gets bypassed -- as long as that distinction exists, we will always be proper owners of the things that we buy.

> Honda could decide that every new sold car in future will phone home at the press of the ignition and check if the driver should be allowed to start the car.

They may be mandated to do so:

> U.S. Senate bill seeks to require anti-drunk driving vehicle tech

* https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senate-bill-seeks-requir...

See also BMW and microtransactions:

* https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/2/21311332/bmw-in-car-purcha...

> The word "ownership" is in part defined by the ability to exert control.

If we were to upgrade the saying "possession is 99% of ownership" to the digital ream, it would be something like "control is 99% of ownership." The distinction between possession and control is only relevant for smart devices.

This is already the world we’re in with digital car keys that have been a thing since 2020. I still own my BMW which supports them.

Yes and they should consider doing that. After all, Trump supporters may drive their Civic to the Capitol. Our democracy dies in darkness!!!

> Honda does not give me an SDK and API to run arbitrary software on the computers in my Civic either. But obviously I own it.

Cars and their infotaiment systems aren't marketed as general-purpose computing devices in the first place. iOS devices very much are.

Plus there's far more mods available for honda than there ever will be for Apple. Modding them, tuning the ECUs, aftermarket hardware and software, you bet baby. The car hacker community is very alive

Apple has been crystal clear in their marketing and documentation about how app development and distribution works on iOS since the day it was announced in 2008.

The specific question here is why Apple is putting new restrictions on multicast. Unfortunately all the informative comments are far below this rehash sub thread.

But are regular users aware of any of that? Do they know how app publishing works at all? Do they know about the absolute disgrace that is the app review process and the "guidelines" it follows? Do they know they can't sideload apps? Do they know every single binary that an iOS device runs has to be signed by Apple?

I bet they don't. And Apple would've lost some part of their user base if they were honest about this with their users, not just developers.

Though around me in particular, many people became acutely aware of that in 2016 when Pokemon Go became huge and those with iPhones found out they can't just download the game from somewhere else and install it to bypass the geographical restrictions in the app store. Some made separate Apple IDs for a country where it was available. Many were envious to those who use Android, because you'd just download an apk and be done with it.

Oh no, you think that if only the users knew about X then they would care, when really they don’t care so they have no reason to know about X. Not to get too off topic but Epic thought they’d have popular support for their new App Store but the entire world just shrugged and saw it as a greedy play for more money.

Anyways I digress, though you really think that Apple not wanting you to install an unsanctioned iPhone app is going to cause outrage? Sideloading has been a thing for a long long time

The modern era provides individual humans with greater access to information and ability to publish information than has ever existed before.

If “regular users” aren’t taking the same stance as you, maybe it’s not because they aren’t aware, maybe it’s because they have different use cases and priorities.

Every app they download is distributed through the app store. If it doesn't fit the app store rules, it simply never materializes, and so no one ever sees it. You only become aware of these limitations once you want to make an app, modify someone else's app, or, like in my example, want to use an app that isn't officially released in your country.

Apple is very good at disguising these limitations such that you don't notice them unless you start actively thinking about iOS development one way or another. In other words, you only become aware of the walls around the walled garden if you try to escape it.

The day the iPhone was announced they stated that the app model would be http based apps that could be installed from anywhere.

> Honda does not give me an SDK and API to run arbitrary software on the computers in my Civic either. But obviously I own it.

I can install any aftermarket parts I want to install in my Civic, because I own it.

But you might also make your car illegal to operate on public roads, depending on where you live.

Honda isn't part of that decision, and the laws apply equally to vehicles of all makes. As long as you don't modify emissions, you actually get quite a bit of leeway.

But you might also make a novel improvement that benefits all of your fellow users. Think about how many iPhone features were dreamed up not by Apple but by developers or even “hackers” who figured out a clever approach to a common problem.

I use the “flashlight” on my iPhone all the time but I remember when the only way to use it was to open the camera app, switch to video mode, and turn on the flash. And Shortcuts is one of the most useful app available for an iPhone and it was an idea patched together using APIs in a way Apple never intended. In fact, Shortcuts could be way better if Apple didn’t have so many seemingly random and arbitrary limitations.

Well, Honda does actually offer an SDK for its cars, but it looks like their cert expired.... https://developer.hondainnovations.com/

> Why do we have to rehash a decade-old conversation on every single iPhone/iOS Apple story?

Because this is the possibility of people to cash in on their "I told you so". Also, it is not too late to either change direction or jump ship; if we take this without complaining, the situation will only get worse.

> Honda does not give me an SDK and API to run arbitrary software on the computers in my Civic either. But obviously I own it.

You are bound by 17 U.S.C. § 1201 to not attempt to alter the car in ways Honda does not approve.

> Jailbreaking is legal,

Not that simple. Since the DMCA/EUCD, it's complicated.

>Honda does not give me an SDK and API to run arbitrary software on the computers in my Civic either.

If something goes haywire in my phone, it can't possibly turn into a 2 ton death machine, which is something that can happen with a car. Cars have stringent safety regulations that cell phones do not. So... bad example.

Because its the obvious outcome of the ancap principles that many on here are strongly in favour of. Company appeals to the largest market share by designing devices that work well for the majority of people. It just happens that HN readers are in the minority on this one.

Multicast can certainly be used to fingerprint a network. I have done that for making apps automatically switch settings.

It is not clear to me why it would it would be different from the “Local Network” permission.

Slightly OT, but thinking about your comment I wonder if there’s any correlation between people who don’t care about general purpose computing and people who drive commuter cars. I would think probably so - in both cases, many just want a box that gets them from point A to point B with no interest or concern about what’s going on inside the box.

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