India's living dead | Hacker News Reader

India's living dead

bbc.com

242 pointsZeljkoS78 comments

>Finally, in desperation, he decided to break the law by kidnapping his uncle's child. He was hoping the police would arrest him and in doing so be forced to accept that he was alive - after all, you can't arrest a dead man. But the police realised what he was up to and refused to get involved.

Why does this sound like some sort of invincibility superpower? These people should form a league of the undead and go rob banks or something.

It's only a superpower in theory. In practice, the IRS has sued people for benefits collected from a not-really-dead person [1] without restoring that person to the land of the living. And then there's a case where a supposedly-dead person was given the death penalty [2].

If the state has an incentive to punish you, it will find a way.

[1] https://loweringthebar.net/2014/08/feds-say-legally-dead-is-...

[2] https://loweringthebar.net/2014/09/legally-dead-man-sentence...

obviously the superpower would be functioning in India - and just as obviously at some point you would do something big enough that they would have to do something about it. Probably the something like what was done in the movie Brazil when someone was legally dead but still alive.

Why assume India's government is any different from any other. There is no India's government. There's 100000 government departments that barely work together.

If you get one, responsible for enforcing the law, to punish you it is not going to make another department realize and admit its mistake and undo what they've done. It's just not.

Not in the US. Not in France. Not in India.

the implication was that if you did something big enough for some authority to say 'ok you are not dead you are alive' they would rectify the situation by expediently making you dead.

Then you would not have the problem of other departments needing to admit their mistake.

Except it'd be one department noticing you did something big enough and another department needing to admit it's mistake (and I might add: and now less inclined to do so it since you did something big) ...

>obviously the superpower would be functioning in India

The supposed kidnapping was a ruse, which the police saw through and just treated as a family dispute.

Most kidnappings are intra-familial, at least in the US—mostly related to child custody disputes. Are you saying that the police shouldn't get involved in those cases, either?

^ Sadly, kidnapping charges have huge consequences. They were designed to prevent a "kidnapping" in which a person tries to steal and keep a child. These laws were not designed to punish a parent returning a kid from a Yankees game late.

>They were designed to prevent a "kidnapping" in which a person tries to steal and keep a child

Aren't most of these kidnappings also intrafamilial? Even if you throw out the "parent returns a kid a bit late from an activity" cases, I think there are many more parents trying to take kids to another state to keep them full time despite a custody agreement otherwise than there are strangers just nabbing kids in parks or what have you.

Obviously they are saying that yes.

No, I’m saying the police did look into it, as they should, and found that in this case it wasn’t a serious issue but just a stunt. If there had been any genuine intention to harm or detain the child then of course it should have been prosecuted, but it seems that there wasn’t.

Ah that would be a great movie, but it’d be hard to suspend disbelief. Most likely you would just be treated as an unidentified person instead of untouchable.

I think in real life it goes “you are under arrest for kidnapping and impersonating a dead man.” The police choosing not to get involved is probably the least likely outcome, ordinarily.

Given the corruption involved, doing that would likely end up with you becoming actually dead. The police are usually involved in these scams in the first place.

Honestly, this was the most infuriating part of the whole article. Instead of helping the victim, the police turned on him.

If this happened to me the gloves would be off. I would threaten to kill them. If that didn't trigger them to attack me first, I would follow through. If the law of the land is not just then we are bound by a higher justice to act.

Just wait until we have like 14 billion people on Earth and we really start to lose control of all of these systems. I can see it now on NBC Nightly News with Lester Holt in 2040:

Lester: “A gang of so-called Shadow People staged a protest today, saying that they’re really alive. Are they? Here’s Suzie with more”

Suzie: "Lester I'm here in front of the capitol building today with a group of protestors who claim to be shadow people, and they want Congress to fix it. I had a chance to interview one of the members of this group:"

Suzie: "Sir can you tell us why you're protesting today?"

Protestor: "So I'm not sure what's going on but I just can't do anything. I went to renew my license but the system says I'm deceased. I don't have any of these documents to prove I'm alive. I'm like hey I'm right here talking to you ya know? But they just tell me I'm dead. I don't know what to do about it so that's why I'm here."

Suzie: "Sir can you tell us, are all of the members of the protest today, the so called Shadow People, actually dead?"

Protestor: "No! That's what I'm trying to tell you. We're not dead. I'm right here talking to you. That's why we're protesting."

Suzie: "It seems that way. Sir. But when you went to the BMV and found out you were dead, what was that like? Did you feel any different? How did that affect you personally?"

Protestor: "I'm not dead!"

Suzie: "Back to you Lester"

When you run out of social security id:s and start to have collisions.

when the database is so large, it cant be parsed in a human lifetime

They do recycle SSNs! I had a project where we used the death master files (they use to be more free/public, now https://ladmf.ntis.gov looks like they have a fee ). It was really interesting data pull sequences of users with the same SSN, similar names, and different birthdays. The users with typo SSNs were interesting too.

Sure, it feels like that to the victim of the forgery. But, the state isn't denying [0] that some human is alive. The evidence available to it asserts that the human is an impostor attempting to adopt an indefensible identity, as in the article. Presumably, the human would need to provide evidence that discredits the forgery underlying the state's belief (ex dental records, genetic evidence).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeing_Like_a_State

No it's not a superpower. They'll just throw you in a gulag or the equivalent and wash their hands of it. After all, you do not exist.

> Shaina NC, spokeswoman for the governing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), told the BBC that the current government has been very diligent in enforcing legislation to tackle corruption.

> "In a country as large and diverse as India you could have a few stray cases which do come up time and again, but the majority is insulated by the good governance of the Prime Minister, Narendra Modi," she says.

God the sycophancy of these politicians knows no depths. There is more air in outer space than these people have shame.

I was about to comment on that precise quote. Not a good sign of the political culture, one hopes it's an isolated incident. I mean, this sounds like something an official from North Korea might say.

Lest you think this is unique to India, here is a similar story from France:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/12/french-woman-s...

I'm sure this can (and does) happen basically anywhere, but according to this article one state in India alone has 40k ""dead"" people, so the scale is way different.

> I'm sure this can (and does) happen basically anywhere, but according to this article one state in India alone has 40k "dead" people, so the scale is way different.

India has about 20 times the population of France. So if it's normal for something to happen to 2k people in France, then that alone scales up to 40k people in India.

Uttar Pradesh has a population of "only" 240M, about 3.5x that of France.

Is there any indication that there are two thousand cases in France, though? So far in this discussion we’ve seen evidence of one.

No, it's certainly a much bigger problem in India than France. The intent was just to emphasize that “just one state in India” is not a small / low population place, but comparable to larger European countries. I did that pretty badly though.

To point out another mistake I made, I forgot to compare the population of the state alone v/s France – which is 3.5x, not 20x (as another commenter says [1]). So the equivalent case for France would be ~10k such cases, which would hopefully be reported about more widely.

--------------------------------------------

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28299098

In this case, the women allegedly played dead to avoid paying a 14000 euros judgment against her.

The article says that when the case against her didn't pan out for the litigant, they launched a new case, stating that this time they were attacking her estate as she was dead.

How this statement in court filings resulted in her being declared dead the article does not state.

I don't remember reading anywhere that she was at fault, for any of it.

The article speaks of 40,000 cases in just one Indian state vs one case in France. It's really not comparable. That being said the French administration is particularly infuriating and being locked out of everything because "opening bank account requires a proof of residence" coupled to "you need a check (thus bank account) to get your university dormitory room" can definitely happens. And while honest citizens are easily screwed it doesn't even remotely stop fraud which is massive, with a billion of euros scammed out of the wealthfare every year (https://www.google.fr/amp/s/lexpansion.lexpress.fr/actualite...)

In France the problem with fraud and excess registrations has got to do with data segregation. Files can't legally be cross-referenced between the ID system, the fiscal system, the healthcare system and so on. That leads to a lot of cruft. In Japan they've got tons of dead people still legally alive, it's a pretty common issue.

As for bank accounts, you need KYC everywhere, at least in Europe. I don't see how France is specifically problematic in that respect.

I just want to say that these are unrelated: opening a bank account doesn't actually require a proof of residence in France by law, it's the banks themselves that often require it (but when you move abroad they are generally happy to update your address without proof), needing a check for renting is absolutely infuriating but also not a legal requirement, only something private landlords usually ask (publicly subsided housing and student accommodation organisations that regularly see foreign students generally allow other means of guarantee).

So these are entirely problems with private actors, not the French administration - you will find that the French administration is often very helpful when you need to pay things to them, most means of payment are possible, foreign credit cards are no problem for example, and they even take American Express for paying fines.

And wealthfare fraud is not conducted with checks, although it might require false proofs of residence.

Proof of residence is not required by law for bank accounts, but banks are on the hook when dealing with non residents, in particular regarding anti-laundering laws. Technically it’s a private sector decision, in practice it’s a result of the different gov entities requirements that lead to the current situation.

Of course it’s not just french banks, having foreign accounts is just becoming more complicated in general IMO.

While proof of residence isn’t necessary, you do need some sort of identification right? This due to anti money laundry laws. A bank in Europe must be able to prove that an individual is who he is. The identification will indirectly prove that someone else has verified the individual’s residence. If you then move, it doesn’t matter since you are already identified.

Yes, you need ID either way. I think Bank of France will open you an account without any other condition than proving your existence, but without any convenience on it outside of the bare minimum (it’s part of their role as a societal service)

Well, the thing is that the ID asserts that there is a government party that is a guarantor to that you exist and you are who you say you are. So by showing them the ID they know that all the work is done to assert this and they only need to match the persons face/bio to the card to assert the identity.

All banks in the EU are bound by law to assert that the person doing a transaction is who he is and is identifiable. So it’s not just because their “role as a societal service”.

> So these are entirely problems with private actors

The CROUS, which manage the dorm in my example, are a public actor.

In Spain there's a very similar immigration catch-22. You need to be registered as a resident (and hence have a stable address) to get an identity card, but good luck doing pretty much anything (including opening a bank account or renting a flat, which almost always requires a bank account) without the identity card. It's possible to open a bank account as a non-resident to break the loop, but this requires a certificate of non-residence (!) which takes several weeks to get.

Everyone I know who came to work here from abroad just either went to a "friendly" bank branch where they turn a blind eye and open an account for them without the certificate of non-residence, or "cheated" the system by registering as a resident at the address of some coworker, boss, acquaintance, etc. (without really living there, of course). The latter is so widespread that many websites for immigrants describe it as "the" way to do things, they don't even mention the "orthodox" way, which makes sense because it's just not practical. It's ridiculous.

I am from Brazil, living in Brazil, have accounts in Brazil, and so on.

And got stuck for a while in a similar loop when I decided to get married.

The marriage office wanted me to prove my residence, and it had to be MY residence, not partner, not parents, it had to be mine.

Meanwhile the places I attempted then to rent to fix the previous issue, wanted proof I had a high enough income to rent them, but wouldn't accept my future wife contribution to it properly.

The deadlock was broken only when one day the broker called me, saying some dude was offering his apartment for a really cheap rent because it was an emergency for him. (his mom got cancer and he decided to live with her and use the rent money to help pay her treatment)

I accepted, and had to live in the apartment alone for some 2 months before I could go register my marriage.

If it wasn't for my landowner misfortune I wouldn't been able to get married.

Then right after got stuck in another loop: I was candidate for council elections once, the party lawyer promised to take care of everything for me, but he didn't, despite the fact I spent 0 money and got 0 donations, government decided I was potentially corrupt and took away my voting rights (and in Brazil this means you basically become a non-citizen, you can't get a passport, certain IDs, participate in competitions and so on).

I found that out AFTER I married and took my new wife to the voting office to change her name in the registry. So I went to see how to get my citizen rights back, and found out a need a lawyer, it is mandatory, you can't just represent yourself to send the missing documents, you need a lawyer. So I need money, so I need a job (I have a company but not enough money for lawyer, wnated extra money). Then I found out to get a job legally, you need to have the voting rights.

I am breaking now this deadlock by getting hired by a foreign company instead, then I will use the money I get working from the foreign company to pay the lawyer.

But it made me wonder, I am fortunate, what about people that don't work with stuff that allow them to get a remote job with a foreign company? Will them be forever non-citizens?

> "cheated" the system by registering as a resident at the address of some coworker, boss, acquaintance, etc. (without really living there, of course).

This could be a feature of the system, not a bug. In order to make it work you need the implicit endorsement of the person whose address you are using; presumably there could be repercussions for that person if you turned out to be problematic, which would apply a "character test" of sorts to the residency system.

Yeah, I have thought about that, and I also think it may be intentional, for the reasons you mention.

But it's quite ugly that in order to implement that "endorsement system", they push you to lie, because both the letter of the law and the forms that both the immigrant and the "helper" person sign are quite unambiguous: you are declaring that the person physically lives in that address, which is not true.

If they want an endorsement system, they could explicitly create one.

There was a recent Hindi/Bollywood movie on the same subject showcasing the plight of the living dead. Kaagaz (Hindi for Paper): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaagaz

>..he still hosts, every year, a re-birthday party, with guests sitting round a large beautiful cake. As the knife slices into the intricate icing it becomes clear to his guests that it's just a decorated cardboard box - a gimmick.

>"Inside it's totally hollow. Some government officials are like that too - vacuous and unjust,"..

That symbolism is absolutely savage and beautiful.

I hear that in Sweden it's not possible to not notice that "you're dead".

All your bank accounts and other things are quickly closed. And since Sweden has a war on cash, and is a highly digital society, you will definitely notice. You may not even be able to get a library card, if your ID number is declared "invalid".

It's apparently very rare. But have enough people, and eventually someone will make a mistake and declare the wrong person dead.

same in Iceland. When my dad (actually) died, everything in his life ground to an instant halt. As soon as he was registered as deceased in the government system, bank accounts froze, we automatically got letters from a bunch of agencies explaining that they got an update on his status, and in many cases those letters had instructions for next of kin to resolve matters, like collecting life insurance, etc.

The biggest hassle we faced, which wasn't that big really, was going to the bank, with our passports and the death certificate, and asking to have the money transferred to my mom's account. His current bank was even able to contact other banks and we found that he had a couple of old accounts in other banks that we didn't know about. They gave us documents to go there and get the remaining balanced moved.

Getting his online accounts sorted, however, was a different matter. Please leave some kind of "in case I'm dead" envelope for your next of kin with passwords and a description of your digital footprint. It was incredibly frustrating trying to get access to his photo albums and documents on G Drive, for example. I managed to dig out a password at the end, but it took me weeks of trying all sorts of things.

Whoa, how'd you find the password?

That’s not the point of TFA! They’re talking about people who get victimized by people who convince the state that they’re dead when they’re not.

That's not the point of the comments section. They're talking abotu a relevant topic, not the article.

I was specifically addressing the problem in the article where people are surprised to come back to their property to find out that "they're dead".

I'm saying that because in Sweden you IMMEDIATELY find out that "you're dead", you won't have e.g. the problem where your property was actually transferred to "your widow", as was mentioned in the article, before you even know that a process has started.

It's like an alarm. Sure, it won't prevent all burglaries, but (assuming the alarm works, in this analogy, and calls you) you'll find out immediately that someone is in the process of screwing you.

So yes, actually. I think a major enabler for this problem is the fact that in India you DON'T know if you got declared dead. Which really helps the ability to create this kind of fraud.

Yes, this kind of thing must require some preconditions. Among them, I expect, a lack of reliable ID among the poor. Look at it from the government official's point of view: Someone claims to be a person declared dead, because that person owned land. What proof can they offer?

Catch-22 is starting to sound less like a comedy these days. Probably one of the funniest chapters when everyone is trying to explain to Doc Daneeka that he is dead.

I imagine it is no fun in real life. The more you try to prove you are who you say you are, the more you sound like a fraud. How do you prove you are you, when every evidence you provide is considered falsified.

This is a result of pervasive and systemic corruption.

There’s a dark comedy movie in which a bank officer takes out an agricultural loan (for digging water well) in a victim’s name. Of course the water well exists only on paper and money is promptly pocketed by the banker.

After a few years government appointed loan collectors knock on the victims door. He is flabbergasted and seeks an educated well wisher’s help. He comes up with a brilliant plan. The victim files a police complaint that his water well has been stolen. Hilarity ensues! I don’t recall how it ends though.

If I remember correctly the person who signed the papers for the well inspection was charged. Apparently the fines were higher because of the way the complaint was posed, it became a criminal case (of well theft) rather than a civil case.

This was a well-written article, and a very interesting read.

It must be horrible to have a situation you have no control in destroy your life, then consume you until (and if) it is solved.

It sounds like it is too easy in India to declare someone dead.

You just have to bribe someone in the govt and get the death certificate.

You just need a piece of paper from a crematorium saying they buried such and such a person. Crematorium workers don’t earn much so if you bribe them sufficiently you will get it.

You use it to apply for death certificate. And that’s about it. First hand experience.

I think aadhaar card copy is needed but it’s not difficult to obtain especially if you know the person.

Property laws in UP are a nightmare. There are all sorts of laws that allow land mafias to seize property at will. I recently had a family member who passed away (for real) but while going through the paperwork I reallized there are so many loopholes and opportunities for land mafia to essentially claim the land as their own that I cant imagine what itd be like of one of your family members claimed you're dead. Quite frankly I feel like there is no concept of land ownership there unless you are physically present to enforce it yourself.

As someone from here this news doesn't even bother me. I mean really not. On a scale of "nothing" to "serious" aspects of corruptions and everything else in this country I see this at "comfortable".

That is why whenever something seemingly Kafkaesque is mentioned from Western world my reaction ranges from more offensive "Weaklings!" to less offensive "Ah, first world problems!" :)

And that, maybe, tells the state and scale of things here. Been so for years, decades and it's getting worse every year.

I wonder how this kind of fraud will interact with the widespread use of biometrics to assert identity.

This reminds me of a Defcon talk.[0]

In Australia before a certain date the states/feds didn't keep a record of your face if you got a licence/proof of age card. If you find yourself in this position all that is required is non photo id and a statutory declaration signed by friend to authenticate your identity.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FdHq3WfJgs

Also most the opposite of this used to happen (and maybe still does?) in New Zealand - using birth certificates from dead people to generate an identity.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/benefit-fraud-tops-23m-in-reco...

On the bright side. Dead people don't pay taxes.

Unfortunately they may have trouble getting employment to have any income to not pay taxes on, and a long list of other problems.

About 85-93% of employees in India are in the informal sector,[1] where the employer does not care about whether the employee is legally dead, and taxes are not paid either way.

1. https://www.businesstoday.in/jobs/story/labour-law-reforms-n...

A paradise for a free labor market. I hope the predominance of informal employment continues even as India continues to move toward a (post-)industrial economy.

I wonder if Indian laborers share your view that their economic system is a paradise?

They don't pay income tax. They still have to pay all the other kinds of tax like sales, service, etc.

> He added the suffix mritak - meaning "the late" - to his name, becoming "the late Lal Bihari", .... But it wasn't enough to change his situation.

I really liked this man's sense of humor.

There is a Bollywood movie about this name kaagaz.

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt9569610/?ref_=m_nm_knf_act_i2

There is a movie on this, Kaagaz. Pankaj Tripathi is the actor.

The situation is very true and I have heard this from many of friends that there relatives did these to snatched piece of land from there immediate brothers and sisters.

This is what happens when corruption is systemic in a country.

This is a really old article

It was published 6 days ago. Unless you mean the issue the article is discussing is old?

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