A lot of people are getting the OnlyFans story wrong
twitter.com
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> So why the rule changes? Because last December the New York Times published an opinion piece by Nick Kristof caller “The Children of Pornhub” that accused the site and its parent company of profiting off revenge porn, child porn and sex trafficking.
How do you get from 'opinion piece in a newspaper' to 'gigantic transnational financial infrastructure company changes its rules'? In my experience, huge companies do not make changes like this purely on the basis of newspaper columns.
Was there legal advice? Political pressure? Regulatory pressure? All of those would be much more material than a piece in a newspaper.
Journalists with an agenda use a disingenuous tactic, if they have a problem with a person or entity, they'll call up their sponsors, business partners, vendors, etc, and say "we're writing an article on X's platform which has been found to have (controversial material framed in a negative context), are we to believe that you're supportive and would your company care to comment." This leads to the company panicking, going completely defensive, and killing all contracts, services, and pulling sponsors or place of employment from the person whose being targeted in what is often just a hit piece with unverified out of context accusations. So yes, journalists, especially those that work for outlets like the NYT's can have someone's sponsors, money streams, etc pulled out from them by asking so called "innocent" questions in a passive aggressive way. They've done this numerous times not even giving those accused to respond, sometimes the article never even comes out. It's one of the abuses of power you can see in journalism today, where agenda driven journalism is used as a weapon to get someone removed from society, bank accounts closed, etc. Some targets are too big for it to work, or can lose a few sponsors, but they do it all the time.
If a journalist blows a story out of proportion, then usually nothing happens and the story is forgotten after a few months.
But in the porn hub story, the uncomfortable truth is that there was a lot of involuntary porn on the platform. The NYT story just made it a bit harder to ignore that uncomfortable fact.
And it's not like mastercard just changed their policy on a whim based on a single NYT story; credit card networks have always been known to kick all kinds of sex related services off the platform. Sex related businesses have been complaining about that for ever.
1. https://www.pcmag.com/news/pornhub-reveals-explicit-traffic-...
“Of course the New York Times article came out, so even if the information was sensationalized or whatever, MasterCard had to cut them off... It was out of MasterCard’s hands...” No, they made a political-humanitarian choice to use their gatekeeping to influence the world. Same with Apple choosing to go to war with CSAM, we can talk about worries about their methods or whatever but these big companies are making their own choices and they could choose to just ignore the problems with marketing spend, do like Amazon does and purchase ads about how green they are and how they improve local communities and whatever. They chose to instead take their own moral stances and act accordingly, they weren't forced to by some article. And as far as I can tell it's not a purely calculated profit move either.
For that better OnlyFans and PornHub also have agency. So yes MasterCard is making a decision to put financial pressure on a sleazy industry overall, but then PornHub is making their own choices to screw over indie creators and bank on their bigger porn producers. They could instead say, “hey, the indie porn market is about to face this stressor, we could lean into it and become their main ally and then we will basically corner the market on the indie/amateur stuff as others flee.” The business case is not at all open-and-shut you-must-screw-over-the-indie-producers. The story link above acts like this decision was forced; that decision is not forced upon them either. OnlyFans doesn't have to stop doing adult content. They are choosing to pivot away, we'll see if their choice is successful.
I think it's easy to point to "religious groups" and op-eds and not to the overall regulatory push into more aspects of the economy.
In a real world, where people are prone to moral panics, the press is driven by clicks and agendas, politicians are corrupt and routinely abuse power, and businesses love to cover their asses - a single accusation in anything sex-related could cause a lot of damage to any business, whether truthful or not.
Definintely disagree. Stories can be published that are sided, contain bad facts, are missing highly relevant facts, and the narrative can be set in the public consciousness as a matter of record forever.
It’s always a risk-reward issue. Banks are more than happy to work, as long as they can profit enough
My partner, a journalist, has gotten death threats just by being at peaceful protests against certain groups that have wealth and pull in the community - just because members of that org were certain the journalist was the main provocateur. It’s just absolute paranoia. But it is a tell isn’t it? Maybe the rich and powerful should be worried about the common people learning about some truth that they invest a lot of resources to keep secret?
Also I think you may have to look and see how much journalists make. To be so entrenched in a mass conspiracy that takes down whole networks of industry, I’d negotiate a better salary then the equivalent of $20/hour.
This is like arguing that hooligans engaged in vandalism are virtuous because they're not millionaires.
You're failing to distinguish between journalists publishing a balanced truthful article in which the truth makes someone look bad, vs. "nice business you've got there, shame if someone were to publish a hit piece in a major media outlet."
There are some people that enjoy the power trip of forcing the hand of large companies, and there are others that will get behind a cause dogmatically and are capable of inflicting extreme damage -- no conspiracy required.
That is what I suspect happened with that NYT piece, because its depictions of PornHub were distorted and off-base. And the damage stretches far and wide.
And judging by the Twitter thread this seems to be the case.
Sorry that happened to your partner.
I am surprised that death threats are still around. Is it not actually a crime or is anonymity so good that law enforcement can't trace them or do the recipients or police just not bother following up?
I agree with your overall sentiment, but the fact that a journalist may make $20/hr is all the more reason for motivating them, individually, towards uncovering mass conspiracies. In other words, a large scandal no matter how true or not that garners a lot of attention is sure to lead to potential writing prizes, more compensation, bonuses, etc. So while I don't think every media company has some grand Murdoch-like figure that can play individual journalists like puppets, I do think there is a lot to be gained by an individual journalist leaning towards being overly harsh.
It's the publisher and owners who make that choice. In fact on occasion some publishers acquire exclusive rights to a story just to bury it: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/national-enqui...
That's a stretch. What else will you have us believe? That the New York Times intends to be a politically neutral voice of reason? No, sir. Maybe in the 1950s, maybe before the Internet, in those halcyon days when newspapers had a good slice of the nation's ad money and lots of competitors and earned money by attracting from a broad swath of readers to earn money from ads — instead of reliably enticing specific kinds of readers to pay for their content. [2]
The job description of contemporary journalists, and especially journalists at the New York Times, is to build narratives™ and use them to influence the world. That's what you'll learn about pursuing a modern journalism degree, and that's what will get you career success at the Grey Lady — doubly so since the Trump election. This is not a conspiracy theory against "the media" or even a secret; the Times has overtly published opinion articles to this effect [1], declaring this approach to journalism righteous and good, the appropriate approach for our times.
Maybe they're even right, and even if they're not, at least they're not Fox! But we're a long way from just "ask[ing] questions."
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/08/business/balance-fairness... to start with; one can find others, see also general coverage of the trends in pieces like https://www.city-journal.org/journalism-advocacy-over-report...
[2] From the City Journal piece above: "The intent of post-journalism was never to represent reality or inform the public but to arouse enough political fervor in readers that they wished to enter the paywall in support of the cause. This was ideology by the numbers—and the numbers were striking. Digital subscriptions to the New York Times, which had been stagnant, nearly doubled in the first year of Trump’s presidency."
Did PornHub have revenge porn, child trafficking, etc. on the site? Yes. The twitter thread concedes this point. So this isn't "just a hit piece with unverified out of context accusations". Is that fair game to report on? I'd certainly say it is.
If you're going to publish a potentially explosive article about something, is it better or worse to reach out to sponsors, partners etc proactively to get their reaction in the published piece, or should you surprise them with it? IMO the former makes sense. To suggest that these sponsors would somehow not be at all affected if a reporter didn't call them up doesn't match with reality at all. We've seen too many viral boycotts to count at this point.
> They've done this numerous times not even giving those accused to respond
Well, how long is long enough? If you were required to wait for someone to respond before publishing it would be a fantastic stalling tactic, wouldn't it? You could just keep putting it off and off.
The problem here, IMO, is twofold: there is a payment processing duopoly, and societal mores are still very puritanical. These are the cause of the problem, not the article. Yes, Kristof wrote an article that resonated with those two factors but what's the alternative, not publish controversial stories that might have a negative effect?
Go ahead and have a read, I'll wait.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/04/opinion/sunday/pornhub-ra...
Point here being, anyone doing this is not a journalist; the scenerio described is not journalism. In using the word it belittles and compromises the trust in legit journalism. And it gives the violators the privilege of the label without actually doing anything to live up to the definition of the word.
If your pet barks, do you call it a cat? It's not fair nor honest to call this type of schlock journalism.
While not bulletproof, this filter is handy.
I think that the MC and Visa duopoly that effectively governs what kinds of goods and services are permitted in society is immoral and concerning. I think the Kristof article and the Visa/MC issues need to be talked about separately.
It was an incredibly visible and influential accusation that seemingly came out of nowhere from arguably the most prestigious newspaper in the country, and legitimate businesses like PornHub and MasterCard are terrified of brand association with child porn and sex trafficking -- if those stuck, it's corporate suicide.
You're right that most opinion pieces don't make a shred of difference. But this particular one, because of the seriousness of the allegation combined with its plausibility, did in a big way.
With PornHub that makes sense because the type of content they provide is the crux of their businesss.
But does anyone care or know what MasterCard is associated with? I would not even think to blame PG&E for providing electricity, even if the recipient turned out to be doing some super illegal things with that electricity.
So I am not convinced by reputation damage to payment processors. I am more convinced by unacceptably high chargebacks and fraud, but even there it is hard to explain the about face that payment processors have made here. Curious!
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/04/opinion/sunday/pornhub-ra...
"Your company provided the electricity to take these pictures. Now that you know are you going to continue to facilitate known predators?"
The average layperson would care if MasterCard got hit with a headline like:
"MasterCard processed payments for Very Bad People for months/years!".
Layperson: Guess I'm calling my congressman and switching to Visa!
I assume MasterCard would (a) retain some very good PR firms to assist with keeping their image clean and (b) distance themselves from anything that might tarnish their image, like, well, regular porn websites.
Can you show anything aside from just speculation?
> Ackman, who has four daughters, was outraged when he read how one teenager ended up a Pornhub victim... An influential shareholder activist, Ackman immediately thought about the growing interest in ethical, or ESG, investing... He was friendly with Mastercard’s then-CEO Ajay Banga, whom he had met through a mutual friend. Ackman texted Banga, providing a link to Kristof’s story with his tweet: “Amex, VISA and MasterCard should immediately withhold payments or withdraw until this is fixed. PayPal has already done so.” ... Banga quickly wrote back: “We’re on it.”
https://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/b1s9f698vwhczr...
But if you somehow don't trust that and you're asking for someone to report on the confidential goings-on of internal meetings at MasterCard and nothing else will satisfy you, you're not going to get that here on HN.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornhub
> In December 2020, following a New York Times article on such content, payment processors Mastercard and Visa cut their services to Pornhub. On 14 December 2020, Pornhub removed all videos by unverified users.[15] This reduced the content from 13 million to 4 million videos.[16]
Well, they made changes based on the popular reaction to a newspaper column. I’m not sure why you’d point fingers at the column when the obvious reality is that it simply reflects societal norms.
The amounts are minor as far as payment processors are concerned, but those payment processors want to avoid governments getting up their grill.
By acting "proactively" on anything which smells of controversial or bad PR (and nothing does that more than accusations of child trafficking, not even actual child trafficking), regulators see "self regulation" and go look at something else.
The actual profit in this specific case might be small but there are lot of money in things related to adult content. They are all now looking for a trustworthy processor. Also even for non adult content lot of people will prefer having payment processing partner who will not kick you out based on some newspaper image. There are lot of grey area in most of the business, specially the biggest ones.
https://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/b1s9f698vwhczr...
> “Because they had a download button that actually transfers from their servers onto the devices of millions — I think it was up to 130 million a day in 2020 — of visitors to the site, they have been responsible this whole time for record keeping. So what that means is they violated the criminal code of the United States millions of times, tens of millions of times,” she says.
Is this actually true? How is streaming not transferring under the law?
Edit: This article is also interesting in that it characterizes Mickelwait as a "human rights activist" without mentioning Mickelwait basically being the COO of Exodus Cry, which is an anti-gay/abortion/LGBTQ group among other things.
I'm not sure if this has been tested in courts, but there seems to be a legal theory that a streaming function corresponds to broadcasting (only creating transient copies, if any, by default) while a download function corresponds to publication (creating a permanent copy by default). I'm not sure which definitions apply to 2257, but US copyright law says that copies are "material objects [...] in which a work is fixed". So if your system is only designed to transfer into volatile/transient storage, you can apparently argue that you're not responsible for creating copies. I suspect a similar distinction is being made here.
> Edit: This article is also interesting in that it characterizes Mickelwait as a "human rights activist" without mentioning Mickelwait basically being the COO of Exodus Cry, which is an anti-gay/abortion/LGBTQ group among other things.
This kind of laundering is common in opinionated outlets, and ostensibly neutral ones aren't immune either. Keep an eye out for sources being described with phrases like "concerned parent" or "concerned resident", for example.
> One of the primary sources in Kristof’s article is Traffickinghub founder Laila Mickelwait. She also works for the group Exodus Cry, a Christian group that is among other things anti-sex, anti-homosexuality and, naturally, anti-semitic.
While the article itself was a spark, this group has been lobbying for years and pushing from every imaginable direction, including lobbying payment processors and suing companies left and right. So yes, the article was just one tiny piece of the puzzle, but Exodus Cry is the real puppet master.
> Which, to be clear, they kinda were. PornHub was notoriously bad among the tube sites for its reckless lack of content moderation and exploitation of the people whose videos ended up there. Because of the story, Visa and MasterCard both cut PornHub off.
This should be fairly easy to verify and would corroborate the thread
By Thursday of the next week, December 10th, Visa and MC had cut them off. Discover had followed the next day, the 11th. The Washington Post article linked below includes a statement from MC which reads:
"Our investigation over the past several days has confirmed violations of our standards prohibiting unlawful content on their site. As a result, and in accordance with our policies, we instructed the financial institutions that connect the site to our network to terminate acceptance."
See: https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/pornhub-crack... and https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/12/10/pornhub-m...
Any and all websites that allow user published content runs into this issue. It's just a matter of how fine a comb the investigations want to put on it.
So I think the possible brand damage alone could have caused a panic, simply because this particular type of damage could be absolutely horrendous.
It’s important to note that this isn’t wrong or malicious: many things most of us approve of (e.g. ending child labor, environmental reforms, banning dogfights, etc.) followed the same process. The concern is transparency and whether it’s effective at the stated goals: for example, I think trafficking is evil but I also think that the best way to support it is by ensuring fewer people are financially desperate rather than driving them underground where abuse is more likely and harder to prevent.
You'd think, but no. In my experience working at a large tech company, executives cared a lot about what the New York Times in particular thought. A piece published by them would have immediate attention from those executives, and it'd be our problem to respond, even if the original article wasn't well founded. Once I figured out how much leadership cared about NYT, I even justified one engineering decision based on "what would NYT say". And it worked.
It doesn't surprise me in the least that MasterCard cares so much about what the NYT prints.
> Political pressure? Regulatory pressure?
You're on the right track. If you think (correctly IMO) that politicians and regulators read NYT, then pressure from these groups is going to come soon after the NYT piece is published. Best take action before that happens.
Such an article is forwarded to “leadership” and “the board”. Boards in particular, who hire and fire the leadership, prefer collecting advisory cheques without getting any side looks at the country club.
> The new MasterCard rules are a direct result of this, which basically means an overwrought Christian anti-sex fever dream is now dictating sexual content online.
That's right, the state of everything was "dictated" by a guy writing an article.
So article wasn't the source, it was just another piece in the path of Exodus Cry's rampage. They have a huge legal team and they've been attacking this from every imaginable angle.
Someone peed in the ocean and they are draining the entire sea to "fix it". That's not the fault of the pee-er nor even the person who yelled "someone peed". It's the fault of people who didn't understand what that meant before draining some 20% of the matter on earth.
Until that happens, pretty much every single website with user generated content is at risk in some degree.
>Or that OF can't figure out how to verify their creators.
OG does in fact verify every creator. The problem is no company at that scale is going to site down and review every single piece of content they post after that verification which may or may not include other participants that they could not verify. That's what this policy change wants to enforce (which any webmaster would know is prohibitively expensive to do without being Google).
“ Exodus Cry is a non-profit advocacy organization seeking the abolition of the legal commercial sex industry, including pornography, strip clubs and sex work, as well as illegal sex trafficking. The organization originally developed out of a weekly prayer group founded in 2007 by Benjamin Nolot, a filmmaker and member of the charismatic Christian International House of Prayer.”
In fact, MasterCard might lose enough business that they might reconsider. So this can’t be the full story.
https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/bill-ackman-...
Kristof's piece wasn't the first I'd heard of the "Traffickinghub" campaign but it seemed to be the first time a lot of people around me did.
What wasn't widely known at the time was that basically all their "data" was either exaggerated or outright fabrication, with near-zero sources, and backed by religious fundamentalists. That didn't start coming out until the damage had already been done.
"Won't somebody think of the children?!" works every fucking time though.
https://exoduscry.com/downloads/Statement-of-Inclusion.pdf
I'm sure there's much more to the story, but thought it worth at least looking at the vision, etc. from this company given the accusations made against them.
Easy. the reporter isnt just launching the page and waiting for a reaction. They probably used those accounts to report to authorities and timed their story with an expected result from the investigation.
There's no magic to it except for the ability to post the news piece and have the public think "they are just reporting on it"
It’s just a bigger market when people can feel like they aren’t a complete sex worker, and can actually share that they are on OnlyFans, same way they can share their Twitch.
The US doesn’t need to fine or litigate them if they want to penalize them heavily, they can just pass a “consumer protection bill” (so Walmart and others can pay <1% instead of ~2% on all credit card payments).
The same newspaper ran similar tactics against YouTube which resulted in colossal changes. These kinds of stories have an enormous impact, magnified I think by company's (in the case of YouTube, advertisers, in the case of OF, payment providers and investors) being terrified of snowballing bad PR in social media.
It's strange but in the modern world yes, 'old media' can have transformative impact on corporations.
This brings this conflict out of the realm of adult entertainment and into a broader conflict between incumbent central providers that are held to regulatory standards and apps providing a platform for individual contractors that don't follow those requirements. It's in the same field as people arguing AirBNB is only able to exist because it's allowing people to operate hotels without having to comply with hotel regulations, and Uber allows people to operate taxi services without complying with taxi regulations. OnlyFans was giving individuals a way to produce adult films without having to comply with adult film regulations related to age and consent verification of the performers.
A single adult video studio might have a maximum of a few hundred people who they have to keep records for. Those people are paid per shoot, and the content is owned by the studio. There is a high ratio of revenue to number of people whose records must be kept.
On OnlyFans, they have a huge amount of people producing a small volume of content and making very little money, of which they only get a cut.
Also from a legal perspective it is very risky to take on that liability for so many creators. All it would take is one screw up on checking date of birth on an ID, and now OF is accessory to sex crimes.
Their behavior certainly goes way beyond their legal mandate, if not in the USA then for in other countries. Certainly arbitrary, within international context all but certainly illegal. Considering the impact that have had around the globe with their abuses, arguable even covert state terrorism.
However, they are essentially untouchable. Any substantial threat to these companies will have several huge economies instantly through all their persuading power at whomever may cause pose that threat. I don't see that changing as long as these companies are such a convenient tool, in a system where literally everything is ruled by capital (how conveniently).
But the system will erode itself, step by step. Until it does come to a collapse. Good luck with that day, for I hope to not live to see it happen (it won't be pretty).
So I don’t think it’s so much “abusing a dominant position” as “being subject to so many regulations and potential fines that it’s almost always better to just not engage in some business than to take any risk”. Lost revenue from OnlyFans is peanuts compared to potential fines for “facilitating sex trafficking”.
So it’s easy to cite 1 case of beastiality and later say there are “200,000 illegal articles” when 199,999 could be spanking.
"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that.”
- http://cbldf.org/about-us/case-files/obscenity-case-files/ob...
I argue: prostitution is illegal but not reprehensible.
I can understand wanting to fight revenge porn, child porn, human traficing and exploitation, but we’re also making it unreasonable for prostitutes, porn stars and cam girls to do their job. And I kinda doubt that these rules makes much difference to the unlawful actors in those businesses.
I was mainly pointing at the fact it’s “more obviously” illegal than, say, facesitting or spanking.
In what sense are those things illegal?
Interesting article about a protest in 2003
Downvote me all you want for feeling that way.
Humans don't reason with large numbers very well and I have a hunch that OF was just another recent victim of this psychological phenomenon. Especially when I read attempts to cast them that way with
>In May, BBC News revealed the site was failing to prevent under-18s from selling and appearing in explicit videos, despite it being illegal for children to do so. At the time, OnlyFans said attempts to use the site fraudulently were "rare".
but end up also mentoning:
> Under-18s have used fake identification to set up accounts, and police say a 14-year-old used her grandmother's passport.
aside form these mentions, most of the article focuses on prostitution. Which is a much more gray moral quandry than underage participants.
Can anyone here argue against prostitution per se? I'll listen.
I've done some stripping when I was young. I did it because my gf was doing it and was making a lot of money. This was the only way we could make good money without breaking the law.
I've met the most broken and scummy people there is during that time. It ultimately broke our 7 year relationship. You pay an emotional price for making easy money. You have to be very stable to be able to endure that kind of work over time as you deal with a lot of broken people doing very intimate work. Drugs are very accessible and an easy fix to deal with the emotional toll.
People who can work in this industry for more than a year and leave unhurt probably belong in the 1% IMO.
1. legal protections for the performers
2. "not broken" people who are driven away due to seeing it as "skeevy"
3. As seen here, other mediums where the performer has almost 100% control over the audience?
I imagine in some bizzaro world where cash registery workers are "illegal" that you'd run into very similar problem. People suck. And these "dirty" jobs make you run into sucky people more often.
Do you think there’s a way of mitigating the risk of being hurt / lowering the emotional price for sex work?
If you don't think objectifying women harms them, then that's not a "good" argument, I guess.
FTR, I'm against laws controlling consensual sex. Not all harmful behaviour should be criminalised.
The problem that's particular to sex work is legal systems that fail to prevent coercion. This is exacerbated by religious advocacy groups that try to make sex work harder without making it safer.
To accept the argument at all is to agree with the original premise. Which I don't, even assuming we could come up with a definition of objectification we could both accept. But... let's give it a go.
Let's posit there is a thing that happens called objectification. Whatever it is, it causes men to treat women badly, specifically, causes unwanted advances and sexual harassment.
A man somehow catches this because he can pay a woman to give him an orgasm. He doesn't even have to actually do it. Just knowing this is something he can do is enough. Then he goes out and... what? Expects to be able to pay every woman for orgasms? He won't treat his woman boss with respect? I'm trying to understand the mechanism here.
Does this same phenomena happen in any other arena of life? Is it a kind of bigotry? Does bigotry operate a similar way?
> ...the Johns are treating women's bodies as something that can be traded commercially. The more that is normalised, the more it damages all women - not just prostitutes.
Sex workers are "selling their bodies" no more than your local bartender or barista does. Sex workers provide a service no more magical than they do either. If you were to expand on this "selling their bodies", I think you will find that it is meaningless.
So, no, I don't think it's a good argument at all until we can demonstrate that "objectifying all women" is something that happens when prostitution is legal.
my country certainly thought so with fast food a few decades ago, despite it arguably contributing to the obesity epidemic. And alcohol a century ago.
I agree with you, just pointing out society's hypocrisy.
"On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows."[1]
The increased demand for sex work in the wake of legalization results in more people forced into involuntary sex work, despite the presence of legally-protected sex workers.
[1] https://papers.ssrn.co/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065
I've been a customer of several sex workers in many countries and most of them are actually OK with their job and lifestyle (I've asked several). In many places it's the best/only opportunity they have to earn good money and be independent. They find it better to sell their bodies for 1 hour tops with rules and regulations to several men than to have to marry and stay with one man that hits them and makes their life miserable
Another thing I've found by experience is that most women see prostitution as a temporal thing to make some money and then quit. I'd love to see research on the topic but from my experience it's a job that they do for months, maybe 1 year at maximum, but do enough money to quit and do something else.
I think overall legal prostitution is way better than black market prostitution. No-prostitution just won't ever happen no matter what, isn't it the oldest of jobs?
There are lots of jobs that cost the workers something precious. Banning them is likely to hurt the workers, not help them. To help the workers, opportunities for learning marketable skills must be presented, and productive job positions created.
yes, but many actions have those links. this is the basis for the war on drugs that is just now ending in my country.
The argument isn't "does it affect people", but "does it CONSISTENTLY affect enough people negatively that it needs to be outlawed/extremely restricted?" Many of the argument I read against prostituion would be solved by... making it legal and having legal protections of workers. Or at least decriminalizing it for workers so they aren't punished for reporting abuse.
The argument for is pretty compelling: consenting adults have the moral right to sexual privacy, and other adults do not have any moral rights to pry or interfere.
The argument against must be at least as clear and compelling, not "well, it's complicated..."
You've completely removed all the main "negatives" of prostitution, saying those aren't "real arguments."
While it's possible that heroin injection and prostitution may be done in a safe and clean way, the reality is extremely far from that in both cases.
Even if a person safely uses it, and can safely and legally maintain their addiction, heroin is inherently harmful to that person.
Is sex work (prostitution) inherently harmful? I don't think so. Sure, there are plenty of closely related things that are inherently harmful, but sex work can be done without them.
There is the idea that because heroin use often involves second-order effects like shared needles, overdose, etc. that it should be prevented. The reality is that most efforts to prevent heroin use tend to make these second-order effects more prevalent.
Recently there has been a movement to decriminalize drug use, including heroin. The idea is to replace measures that work to prevent heroin use with measures that work to help people overcome heroin addiction, and safely use heroin in the mean time. This way, we fight the second-order effects directly, which is much more effective.
It's a similar story with sex work. Many efforts to decriminalize sex work still have the end goal of getting people to stop engaging in it. This is in contrast to legalization, which would promote sex work while working to minimize the second-order problems that are common to black market sex work.
This is the crux of GP's question: Is there any good reason outside second-order effects to get people to stop doing sex work? I personally am convinced there are none, though my conservative Christian parents disagree.
The same argument could be made about IT. Prostitutes sell their private parts, programmers sell their brains.
> The same argument could be made about IT. Prostitutes sell their private parts, programmers sell their brains.
I don't think this works, because a brain is a "tool" used to "produce" a service, while a prositute is actually just providing their body to be used. They are competing with puppets and animals (e.g. https://www.vice.com/en/article/dpdnp7/yo1-v14n10), and are as such reduced to objects potentially beyond human dignety.
The military is probably a better analogy. Well paid with few skills required to enter. High risk of permanent injury. Generally not reviled with paternalistic and degrading thoughts about those who choose to do it.
It's like being grossly obese - it speaks for itself.
Now some people can pretend they're happily obese - they're not fooling anyone but other fools.
Whether or not being a fool should be illegal is a different matter. My take on it is if it's not hurting anyone else - go for it, just don't expect medical treatment for self destructive behaviour afterwards - we have an over-abundance of fools on this planet as of late.
In theory I think so too, but in reality I'm going to guess most of the actual trafficking isn't actually happening in the open on one the biggest adult sites. They just have the biggest targets to hit.
How about the argument that if prostitution is legal, it's possible for an illegally coercive (trafficked) business to pose as legitimate; whereas if prostitution is not legal, any appearance of prostitution can warrant scrutiny.
Some people offer things for sale which they don't have any right to sell. That doesn't imply that those who do have that right should be prevented from exercising it just to make things easier for law enforcement. You do more direct harm by unjustly prohibiting the activity than you stand to (possibly) prevent.
If you don't think coerced sexual activity is r-pe, or you don't think that enjoying r-pe is wrong, the argument falls apart, of course, which is why this comment section is the way it is.
I hate that we seem to have come full circle:
1. Write coherent, long-form articles which require sustained attention to write and read, but unfortunately can't be easily discovered or nonverbally reacted to by people sitting on toilets.
2. Write intentionally length-limited microblog posts or "tweets" as a cute experiment in brevity by design and creativity under constraints. There's no room for nuance and multi-person conversations are abysmal, but at least your stream-of-consciousness musings have the potential to be "liked" by toilet-bound readers across the world jonesing for buttery-smooth exploding-heart animations.
3. Write coherent, long-form articles, but then break them up into snippets of at most 280 characters, tweet the first one, then reply to yourself dozens of times to reconstruct the original article, forcing readers to scroll past dozens of redundant copies of your profile pic (which of course doesn't depict you) and your clever-only-the-first-two-times pseudonym, truncated over and over, only to invoke a third-party article reconstruction service by replying "@threadreaderapp unroll please."
Agreed that it can be clunky to read depending on the platform, but there's a reason lots of prominent personalities and bloggers still use them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_styl...
Too bad the inline reply style got lost in email culture, but it's good to know it's alive and well on Twitter!
To me, at least, the inline replies were always a signal that a conversation was about to degenerate into an interminable running battle over minutiae.
But Twitter gets you views, so we're stuck with this.
I have no idea why payment processors get to choose and pick what they want to process and what they don't.
If you are going to be a legal dualolopy, then you can't cut off payments like you can't cut off power or water.
Personally I breaking thei anti-trust behavior entirely, so people have options.
Puritanical and evangelical lobby groups pushed these laws through Congress, and now they are reaping the rewards. It's unfortunate that the rest of the world has to suffer for this failure.
I agree that it is not just the Christian right who has engaged in this, though. Famously, boxer Jack Johnson was charged for human trafficking for driving his girlfriend across the border. Their consensual relationship fell into the “immoral” bucket by the standards of the time because it was interracial.
Put another way, do we have a right to sacrifice one population to protect another? Allow me to doubt it.
It kinda feels like OnlyFans has somewhat normalized/popularized young women going from Instagram 'influencer' (sometimes starting underage unfortunately, HS kids use it) to pornstar, for young women who otherwise probably wouldn't have entered the world of porn if it weren't for the fact that the hot Instagram girl -> monetize IG popularity via OnlyFans porn pipeline hasn't become so normalized.
You're doing that one way or the other. The question is merely which one should be protected and which sacrificed.
If that's the price to pay in order to rescue vulnerable people who are being exploited and trafficked, very much so. Sex work is a decadent luxury at best; human freedom and agency are worth so much more.
> thereby putting them in danger?
There's no proof that legitimate sex workers are being "put in danger". They might be de-facto forbidden from engaging in that line of work, but there's a solid rationale for such a policy; it might just be the best we can do given our broader circumstances.
And those claims are in fact used to crack down on prostitution and sex work in general - like a backpage crackdown.
How might you edit the article to remove the "Christian bashing" while also being clear about the influence of Christian conservatism on the topic?
How can we make a clear distinction while also being clear about the anti-sex ideologies that come directly from Christian conservatism?
Is there a specific secular influence that is worth pointing out here that the article missed or glossed over?
We could literally spend our entire lifetimes arguing about sex and society's view on it over history. This twitter thread was already annoying enough to read without that context.
I’m skeptical that we would be seeing the large scale changes to sites like Craigslist, Pornhub, and OnlyFans just because of a NYT article and some prude Christian activists.
And where do you think FOSTA-SESTA, the legal troubles and the sudden shift of mind from payment processors comes from? Do you think they randomly started to care out of nowhere?
At a high level, yes companies are being forced by payment processors and legal troubles, but if you dig a bit deeper, it almost always trace back to christian fundamentalist lobbyists such as Exodus Cry
Environmental impact is mitigated by newer proof of stake tokens. Cardano, Solano, Polkadot. Also, Ethereum is moving to proof of stake eventually as well.
Slow confirmation times are also solved by these same coins. Even ETH with proof of work has a quick confirmation time. Also, for payments over the internet, confirmation time is not a big deal. It's more an issue when buying something in person.
Price fluctuation is an issue, but we do have stablecoins. However, there are only a few.
We do need ATMs, but that also does not matter for online payments.
Fiat to crypto translation layer is probably the main issue in regards to online payments. However, setting up an account on Coinbase or Binance is pretty similar to setting up a PayPal account. Then you can pay any merchant with a QR code or address or whatever, using any of the coins Coinbase supports.
There are crypto enthusiasts in every jurisdiction, with various motivations, including legitimate ones. They will speak out for any undue burden.
IMO here in Canada it's near-feasible. Most people can purchase Bitcoin near-immediately with a bank transfer. Slightly more complicated than linking your PayPal account to your bank.
We saw how it played out with funding of WikiLeaks for example. We need cryptocurrency to avoid this happening again.
It became extremely difficult to prove that there are not naked children on our platform. So we've decided to take our money and run.
There isn't many (moral) ways to allow for reviewing every submission manually while also getting content published in a timely matter. Not for a site this size.
PIX is so good because there is no middle men, no transaction cost(for now), just an easy money transfer
Solutions like PIX would remove completely the pressure that credit card providers have on companies and individuals, especially when it comes to sex work
On the other hand, because of fraud (social engineering), the central bank is looking to allow for cancelling payments, but afaik there is still nothing planned
Sounds like they're still allowing nudity but disallowing "sexually explicit conduct" and will clarify what they mean by that soon...
I think people should just mind their own business and stop policing what other people do. "If you don't like it don't watch it". As long as it's not illegal leave people alone with their fantasies. Don't be so damn judgmental. It's just sad how sexually repressed some people are and that they think they have the right to control other people. It feels like we are one step from starting to burn "witches" and books again.
these "people" get it. They just don't care if it's rape or a rape fantasy. or in fact just regular vanilla sex between a couple. They want it all gone. For everyone.
> It's just sad how sexually repressed some people are and that they think they have the right to control other people. It feels like we are one step from starting to burn "witches" and books again.
tbf that's almost human nature at this point. Some people just enjoy leading/ruling/controlling others. This is just another form of control for them.
Isn't this the crux of the issue? That's what Mastercard is saying, too. As long as you've super duper verified that this video is legit consenting adults, you're good.
It's in Visa's PR interest for these high visibility events (like OF's ToS Change) to happen before Visa announces their ToS changes.
OnlyFans and other sites were in violation of these rules for very long time.
Edit: fix typo
I think the big problem is actually with fairly recent changes in how the rules are applied (and maybe to the rules themselves, not just application) to intermediate distributors between the producer and the consumer which has caused existing sites to have compliance issues.
Even then, they have to setup some payment processor, on top of domain/hosing costs and find some solution on designing the actual page. Mostly doable, but a pain. Except I don't think we'll have FOSS payment processing software until (if ever) cryptocurrency becomes mainstream.
This is like asking why everyone uploads to Steam when they can just publish their game on their own website. These services are selling convivence and curation (and to a much lesser extent, "security". i.e. the website isn't full of viruses), like 90% of the big websites.
I assume these rules will make accepting paymets impossible for any adult site with live-streaming, and for Cam sites, that's their core business.
Potential answers include a move to cryptocurrency to avoid payment processors, or a move to strictly non-explicit content to appease them.
In the near term, either would decimate these sites. In the long term, crypto might be better for performers, as the cam sites could take a far smaller cut of payments.
We don't even have to dive into content aggregation/recommendation algorithms to realize how terrible this is.
I think it's stupid to pay for porn when there's so much available for free but who am I to judge what people do with their money and body as long as it's consensual adults? Plus if we are to enjoy the free stuff, we also gotta make sure the content creators get paid. Cuties was allowed but onlyfans isn't okay?
Also this tweet thread doesn't seem honest imo. It seems more like a political attack against christians. The author wants to lump all christians as one but doesn't want that to be done to all sex workers? As someone who's lived in both Hindu and Muslim majority country, the whole anti sex work and anti porn thing isn't a Christian exclusive thing. Anecdotal but my Christian side of friends and family are very tolerant of gay and porn unlike my Hindu and Muslim ones back home.
The Tweet author thinks Nick Kristof is right wing? I can't take this thread seriously if the author can be so blatantly wrong for political purposes.
> if we are to enjoy the free stuff, we also gotta make sure the content creators get paid
What do you mean by "paying for porn" versus "make sure the content creators get paid"? Do you mean pay content creators as directly as possible, rather than paying distribution/publication platforms?
I'm not in favor of big corporations, but in this case, the rules made by Mastercard seem sensible to me, and I'm not surprised that the Pornhub/Onlyfans are gonna position themselves as "being forced by the big companies to abandon the creators they support".
like pretty much every industry nowadays. If I had to scrub my life of everything profiting off of exploitation, I wouldn't have much left. Even if my computer survived, I wouldn't even have animated pornography because the animation industry in general is also exploitative.
To each their own, but I just see this as the latest example of taking a nail out by demolishing the entire wall. The nail is still there and there's a bunch of non-nail material hit in the crossfire
> Almost the entire anti-trafficking movement is an Evangelical project to get liberal supporters to sign off on a laundry list of Christian anti-sex policies. It’s been one of their most successful propaganda projects. It’s also likely gotten a lot of sex workers killed.
I'm libertarian, do what you want with your body or money but know the risks. That said, someone could also argue that making it more difficult to sell your porn or get involved in the seedier parts of this PROBABLY stopped some people from ruining their lives, staying off drugs, etc.
Again, don't like either argument, but there are two "probably" sides to this.
That said, OP's claims on the concealed religious motivation and the negative effects of current sex work policies on consenting workers are essentially true.[1]
The president of the Adult Performance Artist Guild has written about the negative consequences of MasterCard's restrictive policies for performers ("I have received numerous reports of workers being removed and having no way to pay the bills because their income was taken away").[2]
Unfortunately sex work research shows that closing sites like Backpage does reduce the capabilities of sex workers: "the financial situation of the vast majority of research participants has deteriorated, as has their ability to access community and screen clients".[3]
Groups seeking to eliminate sex work often present misleading information and advocate policies that make sex work harder but not safer. There are policies that can improve safety and consent without harming consenting sex workers, but those policies need to be created with context and measurable consequences in mind, not sensationalism.
[1] https://newrepublic.com/article/160488/nick-kristof-holy-war...
[2] https://www.thedailybeast.com/porn-world-we-are-sick-of-mast...
[3] https://antitraffickingreview.org/index.php/atrjournal/artic...
That propaganda tactic is probably more effective in that area than any other, but it's not exclusive to it. It's basically an attempt to hide a large system of exploitation in the shadow behind a very narrow sympathetic story, and that's standard operating procedure for people who create those exploitative systems (see also: gig work, child labor, etc.).
(not a judgment on what they do but the reality of the situation
Kinda, huh? Of course the more important point, according the thread's author, is that:
"Kristof’s story might have been correct on some of PornHub’s abuses but it was deeply manipulative and painfully wrongheaded about sex trafficking in porn and, like almost anything he writes about sex, a filtered version of Christian dominionist propaganda"
Sure, okay. In the future maybe these sites shouldn't sexually exploit children. Then they won't be exposed to such right-wing attacks.
"65% of adults in the United States identified themselves as Christians."
That Pew survey suggesting 65% are Christian seems vulnerable to the halo effect - a little irony is present in the name. People who were conditioned as children to believe they ought to believe in Christianity (which is different from believing in Christianity) will answer 'yes' to such a survey question even if their measurable actions like church/mosque/synagogue attendance or OnlyFans donations indicate differently.
[1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-...
Q on your side is the antifa of the other side, just a name for an nondescript group you disagree with.
65% of people saying they’re Christian in a survey doesn’t mean 65% of people are part of the most strict faction.
Pornhub was actually peddling in CSAM and revenge porn, and rape being sold to consumers. They are cracking down on payments, because of the reputation risk, and plain old morality. This has the risk of pushing some sex-workers into less safe avenues. We can debate this - and there is a healthy debate about that.
But in modern media, you don't just need facts to make a opinion, a group that is a outgroup that you can attack is also necessary. Hence this article.
hence this article.
The argument for payment processors having too much power was had over a decade ago when they everybody stopped allowing donations to Wikileaks.
No, they shouldn’t have that power, it should be the courts who shut down only fans by jailing the people who work there. But I’m also not going to shed any tears over some people who willfully exploit children losing their ability to make money from it.
CP also breath air, time to make it illegal?
There is no point foregoing privacy if authorities don't even try to precisely target bad actors but decide to nuke the whole area with a 100 Megaton Tsar Atomic Bomb instead
Essentially, there was recognition that ALL kinds of things could be seen as connected to a bad thing. But for the miners, we would not have extracted the iron ore that was used to make the steel that was used to make the firearm that was used to shoot the victim, etc. So "proximate cause" is a discussion of whether or not the degree of connection is close enough to make the blame ridiculous or not.
Not really taking a side in this debate here. Simply pointing out that just coming up with a slew of "but for" causes is not a libertarian trump card for everything. Societies and systems can rightfully draw the line somewhere more reasonable.