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Comment by fecak | Hacker News Reader

Professional resume writer here. Quick review.

We don't use first person voice on resumes. We use 'implied first person' (no 'I'). So "Former emergency response driver..."

Mentioning a Twitter handle is only useful if your Twitter has things you'd want people to see.

The professional experience section (Modules here) should be in reverse chronological order - so most recent first. It would be useful to say something that you did while working for RustMinded and maybe tell the reader who the company is. So it might look like:

Software Developer, Rustminded $DATE_- present

RustMinded is a Belgian startup dedicated to the promotion of the Rust language.

As others have said, I don't really get the fascination with LaTeX. I get a lot of incoming resumes from my tech clients that are written in LaTeX. It feels more like "I built it using LaTeX to try and impress you" than "it's the best tool for the job".

The project sections are mostly OK other than some language issues.

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> We don't use first person voice on resumes. We use 'implied first person' (no 'I').

Who is "we" here? I've always had good results with a first person CV - so far in the US, the UK, and the EU. Maybe I just get away with it by luck or circumstance, but it's clearly not a set-in-stone requirement.

> It feels more like "I built it using LaTeX to try and impress you" than "it's the best tool for the job".

Anecdotally a friend who at that time worked at Sun Microsystems told me that his team prioritised CVs created with LaTeX over all others.

After all, if the purpose of a CV is not to "try and impress you" then what is it?

Not using "I" on a resume is pretty much the first rule of resume writing. If you were to search for rules of resume writing, I expect that would probably appear on every article. If you've had good results with a first person CV, that's probably because your experience is strong enough that the reader forgives you for the error.

Of course you 'can' write a resume in first person. It's just not the voice that the reader expects. Similar to third person.

A resume is certainly meant to try and impress the reader, but typically we're trying to impress the reader with professional accomplishments. I'm much more impressed by someone's professional accomplishments than their choice to use LaTeX.

Since you are openly advocating for people to blindly follow this rule… can you at least explain _why_ do you think this rule makes sense and people should follow it.

When I hire, I couldn’t care less about whether the person uses I or We.

Search for "should I use first person on resume", the articles will explain a bit. One reason is brevity - we want to use as few words as possible.

The other is redundancy - if we use "I", chances are almost every sentence will begin with "I". I did this, I did that.

I'm caught between thinking you'd have to be a loon to make hiring decisions on this basis, and wanting to punish the fewer than 10% of people in my inbox that actually follow this advice for having no critical thinking skills of their own.

If you're saying less than 10% of the resumes you get are written in implied first person, I find that incredibly hard to believe. I work with easily 1000 clients a year (most in tech), and the 'before' resumes sent to me by clients are at least 95%+ in implied first person.

Going to walk back my 10% here, that's just the number that don't use 'I' somewhere in their CV. There are many that just do it in an intro or elsewhere, but list projects or contributions in implied first person. Some are an ungodly amalgamation of both (I know my LinkedIn profile certainly is, but that was created under duress). I am fine with either, I just don't understand the idea that a recruiter is going to clutch their pearls at this. Anyway, my original question was genuine, I'd be fascinated to see some controlled study into this, which I understand would be hard to engineer.

I still fail to see the value in filtering out candidates by whether they know this rule that still nobody has given any actual arguments for.

"If you Google this string, you'll find the arguments" is a logical fallacy. You are claiming that there are arguments for why this rule is true, but not providing any. If anything, the only thing this statement proofs is that you are not able to explain why doing this is even a good idea.

And FWIW, I actually google this and none of the first 5 results actually explained why this rule makes sense. They were all posts of the form "20 rules to blindly follow when writing a resumee".

Where do you see anyone suggesting that we actually "filter out" candidates because they use "I"? Nowhere in this thread have I suggested that in any way.

In other parts of this thread, I've explained why we don't use I. Let me gather them for you.

1 - Redundancy. Imagine a list of bullets that start with the word "I".

- I wrote a playbook for product implementations.

- I managed the project...

- I oversaw a team that...

Hopefully by now you see this wouldn't be a fun read.

2 - Necessity - The resume is about you, not others, so we don't need to say that you (I) did the things on the resume. That is understood, and why 'implied' first person fulfills our needs while also reducing the content. If I ask you what you did today, you can just say "Watched TV, mowed the lawn, ..." - you don't need to say "I watched TV, and then I mowed the lawn."

I hope this helps, and maybe we can put this to bed.

If they don't filter it out... why should anyone care? Kinda feels like you sent off for a "become a resume writer in 24 hours" kit and segued from there into being an internet bore who thinks he's a brand. Literally all your comments on HN are "RESUME WRITER HERE!" as if that's anything other than a recruiter who found an easier scam. I've no doubt there's money in it, but realistically you could just be the identity function and still place almost all your customers.

You've decided to get personal. Will top candidates be filtered out based on some issues related to breaking resume norms? Probably not. Bill Gates could write a resume on a napkin in ketchup and get an interview.

It mainly makes a difference for candidates in more competitive situations - give a recruiter two resumes with somewhat parallel experience, and the better resume (based on writing style, obeying stylistic norms, etc.) is probably more likely to get the interview.

As for a "scam", my results are hard to argue with, and most clients seem to think the investment was a good one. Many of my clients come to me after having failed to get interviews for their dream jobs, and after working with me their fortunes often change. Many of my clients approach me trying to get jobs at places like FAANG companies, while many others just are looking to work at places most people have never heard of.

Would you like to be done now? We both have better things to do.

Well that's just rude.

To echo that, it’s not that the resume authoring doesn’t matter, but saying you made it in LaTeX is better said in the cover letter where you can highlight how that’s relevant to the role or why you did so.

Most resumes are processed and chopped up by ancient applicant tracking systems, so you sometimes have to stick to the facts in a resume with a plain layout. These ATS systems rank resumes by relevance, generally based on job ad keyword matching and matching against some synonyms not mentioned in the ad.

I’ve had early success with a less traditional resume layout but I know I was picked due to relevant experience even then. Experience, relevance and luck/perseverance are probably the three keys to landing a job quickly.

A not-very-thorough search for CV and Resumé writing and skimming through the results and I don't find anyone mentioning the importance of avoiding the first person.

That actually surprises me, because while I don't think it's good advice I did think it was common.

I did a quick search, and the results surprised me too. After reading a couple of the articles, I was less surprised, because they weren't good. Try a search for "should I use first person on resume" (no quotes). That search turned up more of what I expected.

The #1 result in my "rules for resume writing" search did mention first person.

I agree that they weren't particularly good pieces of advice. However I think it gives the lie to your assumption that this is a given.

Part of me thinks that the rule is so well-known that the writers didn't both to include it. Like "don't use a handwritten resume" isn't something we need to tell readers.

I could be wrong about that, but the data doesn't lie. I've read far more resumes than the average human being - 20 years in recruiting, 7 years as a resume writer, thousands of writing clients - and definitely <10% of the resumes I receive from clients include the word "I" anywhere at all.

If it's not a given, I guess it would be one heckuva coincidence that 90%+ of the tens of thousands of resumes I've seen all don't use "I".

Again, "unusual" and "bad" are not the same thing.

You've laid it down as the prime consideration for writing a CV and given no evidence that it's even important! You may be right, but you haven't shown that you're right even anecdotally. Strongly held beliefs are fine, but they're not evidence.

I don't think I used "bad" anywhere, but it's something we're generally told not to do. If you Google that specific question about first person, you will likely get the answer "don't do that". (I ran a few searches like this myself already). "The prime consideration" is a bit strong.

Can you be successful with a first person resume? Yes. You can also be success with a third person resume, or a resume that is web-based and includes only a list of links to your code repos.

My evidence is from reading resumes every day of my life for 20 years. Tens of thousands from people all over the world. You can call that anecdotal.

The thing is there are no "official" rules for resumes like there would be for haiku or sonnet. It's not that kind of writing, but there are norms.

As another example of a norm, an experience section is written in reverse chronological order (most recent experience first). Have I ever seen someone write it another way? Of course. But that is also incredibly uncommon.

We typically put contact info at the top. Can you put it on the bottom? Maybe even on the last page? Sure. But that would be unusual, and the reader may be inclined to thinking that you don't know how to write a resume.

I think I've used up all my energy in talking about resumes today, and I need to go write some resumes. Enjoy your day.

Ok, you didn't say it was bad, that was my inference and evidently my mistake.

But if it's just common, well, it's an odd piece of advice for someone who has literally formatted their CV as a programming language's reference document!

Edit: Oh, and thanks for your patience and for engaging.

My apologies for taxing your energy supplies and more power to your elbow in crafting supplications ;)

What’s the basis for this advice? Have you tested A/B tested it with your clients?

In fairness, A/B testing this approach would be ethically very iffy, particularly if they believe it makes a difference!

Nope. The results my clients get with my resumes are enough proof for me.

But you're sure that not using the first person is a big component of that?

We may have some kind of disconnect. The most common resume is written in "implied first person", and not "first person", so the "I" in most lines is implied. Examples:

Developed a web app in Python that ....

Authored a playbook for...

So it's still considered "first person" by most, but the pronoun is dropped.

Can I be sure that no using "I" on resumes is a "big component" for my success? Of course I can't be 100% sure, and my ability to highlight accomplishments is probably far more important.

But I was a recruiter for 20 years, and I know that 95% of resumes I saw during my career (easily in the tens of thousands) were written in implied first person, and when you send someone a resume that continuously uses "I" it is a bit of a shock to the system (just as it would be to see third person).

I'll tell you what, let's save us both some time. Go to Google and just search "resume", and use image search. I just went through the first page of results, and I didn't see a single resume written in first person (using "I"). Not one.

I know that lots of people who sell CV advice on the internet say this, I just find it such a bafflingly trivial piece of advice that it's strange to have strong feelings about it. Most CVs aren't written like this and I don't find myself marking them down for writing like a normal person. Maybe this is a US thing (although I have lots of US people's CVs to look at) but the idea that anyone would be shocked at seeing "I" in a CV is just nuts, and honestly, if someone filters on minutiae like that you wouldn't really want to work for them anyway.

I've written for at least a thousand international clients, hundreds in the UK, and this doesn't seem to be a US thing based on the resumes/CVs I see.

I'm not saying people are filtering on seeing "I", but they would be surprised in the same way they would be by seeing third person "Thom is a CTO with..." on a CV.

I have no agenda here. I'm just telling you the facts from someone who has probably read far more resumes than most others. You don't need to accept my expertise. Again, run a google image search on resumes, tell me how many you see with the word 'I'.

You clearly don't value my experience. That's OK. I'm not some advocate for first person pronouns - it doesn't help me in any way that resumes are written in this manner. I'm just explaining to you that it's a fact.

But you're not, you're explaining that it's a commonly held opinion. I'm just intrigued what the basis for that opinion is other that 'oh, everyone says to do that'. Maybe you're not curious about literally the number one piece of advice you give in your job, but I would be.

A search on Google of the words "resume first person" (without quotes) will help, with the first 10 answers pretty much unanimously agreeing with my belief. I've explained why in other responses (mostly redundancy - "I did this, I did that" gets old.

This isn't the #1 piece of advice I give in my job. I'm a writer. I write the documents. I'm not telling them what to do.

I do offer review services, which are a small part of my business. If I get a resume with the word "I" for a review, I will tell them what I've told you.

You seem intent on belittling what I do, as if my job is to walk around telling people "don't use I".

You're the one that led with that! If I were a professional internet comment writer, I'd have told you how obnoxious that was, but alas, I am merely an amateur.

Before sending off my CV I always spin around three times and say a prayer to Russel's Teapot. The results I get with this practice are enough proof for me.

Ok, it's not an extraordinary stretch to imagine that your form might help, but all you've actually demonstrated is that it's not catastrophically damaging!

I've heard both equally strongly. That 'I' is a big no no, and not using 'I' is a sign of the fact that you didn't actually contribute anything and you're riding on the coattails of your team as the 'useless group project member'.

You can write about accomplishments without using the word I. The I is implied.

Wrote an iOS game that earned $10M in revenue and had 50K downloads.

There is no I there, and I don't think you'd argue that this person contributed.

In the context of how most of us on HN work on teams it's a lot harder to talk about professional accomplishments that way.

If you were at iPhone game co on a team and had "wrote an iOS game that earned $10m in revenue an had 50k downloads" there are absolutely people out there that read that as a team accomplishment that's suspicious that you didn't use 'I' to describe what you actually did.

I was trying to be simple and now we've reached the pedantic stage.

If it was a team effort, we may use "Contributed to development of an iOS game that earned $10M in revenue.".

If it was an individual effort, the bullet I wrote earlier could included a term to clarify that, like "Independently...".

As for 'us on HN', about 100 HN users hire me every year. I even have a discount code for HN users on my HN page here (I got 3 HN orders in the past two days, probably from people reading this thread). I'm familiar with how to write accomplishments on resumes, for HN users and others.

I said at the beginning that there's two camps who equally hold opposite beliefs. Just because you've made a career catering to one camp doesn't mean the other camp isn't out there.

I've been in the resume game in one way or another for 20+ years, have published countless articles about resumes on various websites, and written for thousands of clients from all over the world. I've never witnessed anything resembling "the other camp". I've never had a client question the "I" advice - not once.

You can say it exists, but it would be nearly impossible for me to spend an entire career in this field and not ever come across it.

Your clients by definition don't have strong feelings on the format for a resume and accept what you tell them.

You writing countless articles about what you think doesn't preclude the idea that people out there think differently.

Meanwhile I've personally seen it in hiring committees in every job I've worked for about 15 years now. I actively shut down that line of thinking in said committees (from both directions), and it's not difficult to do because you get a group of five people or so together in a committee and that's normally enough for there to be differing opinions on the matter. "Look, even in this small group, of people we've hired and trust to make good hiring decisions, there's mutually exclusive ideas on what you're 'supposed to do'. So obviously we throw out both ideas and accept whatever in this case since it's completely orthogonal".

I personally take your approach since it's around 75%/25%, and the numbers work in favor, but there's absolutely the other camp out there.

You're making some assumptions about people you know nothing about. Some of my clients do have strong feelings on various resume topics, but they know I'm good at what I do and want my opinion. They don't always agree or accept what I tell them.

I'm really not sure what you're talking about with hiring committees, but if you're saying that some people are eliminating candidates because they did or didn't use personal pronouns, I think that's well beyond the scope of what I've been saying. I'm not suggesting applicants who use "I" should be eliminated from contention.

> As others have said, I don't really get the fascination with LaTeX.

I have gone down this path with other types of documents (reports, proposals) not because I love LaTeX but because I hate composing and editing in Word, etc. Especially for long lived or repeated documents. Some of those tech clients might just prefer working with plain text for editing, source control, and/or version branching.

You've never really "lived" until you realize that your document with the different sections, etc. that you've painstakingly setup is broken because of a copy paste issue when adding a new section. LaTex maybe a pain, but at least the output is consistent. There is no magic where the formatting bleeds over due to something you can't see on screen.

Underfull \hbox (badness 10000)?

The odt format is xml in a zip and simple enough that you can hand edit it if you really want to.

I never had the time/brains to get past the learn curve with LaTeX. Recently I started using a pipeline of markdown to html with Pandoc and then to pdf with Dompdf for project documentation.

Turns out you get neatly formatted printable docs with not so much effort, and the raw markdown stays with the code where it can be used and updated by fellow devs

Fwiw, I have made a LaTeX resume template [1] for Pandoc. Input is markdown and output is LaTeX or LaTeX rendered to PDF.

[1] https://github.com/john-bokma/resume-pandoc

I used to do my resume in a custom TeX format.¹ It looked gorgeous. But because so much of tech world hiring is mediated by recruiters and automated resume ingestion systems, having a straightforward document in Word ended up serving me much better.

1. An ancient resume macro (and an ancient resume) that I made while a freshman in college is on CTAN. What I used in my early career was not that, although I doubt I have any relic of that later file anymore.

> I built it using LaTeX to try and impress you

I built my LaTeX resume trying to impress a potential employer yeeears ago. So far it's really easy to keep up to date and to temporarily remove parts (comment them out). I think the end result looks a bit more professionally type-set than a Word/GDocs creation.

> As others have said, I don't really get the fascination with LaTeX

LaTex is really powerful when you get to a certain point, but unless you’ve tinkered with it until you reach that point, it’s a PITA.

To me the number 1 advantage is that I can easily keep updated various versions of the CV, because by working at startups I’ve always have to wear a lot of hats. I keep a more ‘hardware oriented’ CV, another more ‘software oriented’ CV, and I added a more “management” version that showcases better team leadership instead on focusing on the tech stack.

It’s also very handy to keep everything as text documents when you are asked to submit to different webforms, and being able to adjust things like quality vs pdf size is important when submitting your CV in some places

I don't think a novelty résumé needs to be so conventional, people will mostly, in my opinion, either dislike it for not following layout/organisation conventions or look past all that altogether.

For someone like this with little experience, being unconventional is probably OK because they aren't being judged by the same criteria as an experienced hire. That said, you can be unconventional and still provide the reader with the basic facts they'd want to know (like 'what are your accomplishments?' or 'did you attend school?').

> We don't use first person voice on resumes. We use 'implied first person' (no 'I'). So "Former emergency response driver..."

Sorry but no, that’s bad advice.

I've written thousands of resumes, and all written using implied first person. My results are pretty consistent with hundreds of clients getting jobs at many of the most selective employers in the world.

I appreciate your response, but implied first person is the industry standard, and has been for as long as I've been in business.

I screen and read resumes as part of my job. Never heard someone who cared about that. This is just not something people look at in resumes unless they’re looking for non technical people perhaps.

> It feels more like "I built it using LaTeX to try and impress you"

It's not meant to impress you, a resume writer. It's meant to impress other techies.

Correct. The "you" here isn't actually "me" (the writer), but rather the decision maker (the recruiter or hiring manager).

Well, I can tell you that, relying on the experience of my own 30 year career using and reading LaTeX resumes, you're quite wrong. I appreciate a LaTeX resume because:

1. It's almost always much more readable than a Word document.

2. It's not about impressing people. It's about readability for the reader, and maintainability (by avoiding finicky and annoying WYSIWYG editing) for the author.

If using a LaTeX resume means self-selecting out of resume-grinding HR departments that require Word documents — and/or annoying entirely useless tech recruiters — that's a feature, not a bug.

Out of sheer curiosity (and this has nothing to do with the conversation at large), how does one become a "professional resume writer"? Is that a recruiter who helps write resumes, or are you solely focused on resume writing? Is it a side gig, or do you do enough resume writing to make it a full time job?

I apologize if these are well known answers but I stick with a fairly technical crowd and, well word of mouth usually gets us passed around to be brutally honest. I hate to admit it, but a half way legible resume and it's usually just references after a point =/

I was a recruiter for 20 years, and I've always been a strong writer. As a recruiter I read tens (perhaps hundreds?) of thousands of resumes, and I knew the audience. I had always done some resume editing or helping my candidates with their resumes, and I decided I wanted to see if I could support myself as a writer instead of a recruiter.

I do quite well as a writer. My hourly rate is $100/hr, I also offer flat rate services, and for the past few years I've consistently had a roster of anywhere from 30-40 clients at any given time.

My clientele is about 50% tech, as that's my specialty and I was a tech recruiter for my entire recruiting career. Word of mouth does sometimes get you by if you have a good network. There are quite a few reasons people hire a resume writer. Some just simply struggle to write. Some struggle to understand what the reader wants to know. Some aren't comfortable taking credit for their accomplishments, so a writer makes it feel less 'braggy'.

I hope I answered your questions.

You absolutely did. Thank you. I wasn't trying to be flippant, I was genuinely curious.

Grammar nitpick: first person is not a voice.

Furthermore, I’d describe GP’s comment as encouraging ‘pro-drop’ rather than any ‘voice’. (Though I suspect the technical details of syntactic terminology are somewhat irrelevant for résumé-writing.)

I'm afraid pro drop isn't technically right either, for a couple of reasons :D First, English doesn't have pro drop. Second, there's more than just the subject missing in "Former emergency response driver...". If you read it as elliptical of a sentence, then the sentence is something like "I am a former emergency response driver...". If English had pro drop, pro drop would give you "Am a former emergency response driver..."

> English doesn't have pro drop

Depends on the situation! For me it’s grammatical in most informal texts, e.g. emails. (Also, the first sentence of this paragraph.)

> Second, there's more than just the subject missing in "Former emergency response driver...".

This is a good point; I did indeed miss this subtlety. (Actually, it’s not even very subtle!) In this case, I must admit to being unsure about how to analyse this.

>Depends on the situation! For me it’s grammatical in most informal texts, e.g. emails. (Also, the first sentence of this paragraph.)

This isn't technically pro drop. It's a different process called "diary drop". By coincidence I wrote a rant about this only a few days ago:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28127035

Huh, interesting — thanks for the pointer! I’ve been wondering about this for a while. Do you happen to have any more resources? (I enjoy linguistics, but haven’t really read much about syntax; my favourite topic is morphosyntactic alignment.)

It’s hard to find any good scholarly references on the differences between pro drop and diary drop (I guess because they are uncontroversial and not particularly subtle). However, section 4.2.1 of this MA dissertation has a decent, though very brief, summary: https://awweir.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/weir-ug-diss.pdf Similar observations are also made in the following paper: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/76381796.pdf

Again, thanks! I’ll read through these when I get some time.

Ugh, LaTeX resumes. They're a dime a dozen (I've interviewed hundreds of engineers) and they utterly fail to make people stand out, which is the whole point of a resume. When I get a resume that was done in LaTeX from someone who isn't a mathematician, it makes a bad impression. I'm not saying that's right, or fair, but it's true. It comes off as trying to look smart without the substance to back it up, and because so many people do it, it also comes off as really unoriginal, and makes the resume forgettable.

So please everyone, stop with the performative LaTeX. If you had any idea how many people do this, you'd be embarrassed.

(And to add a dash of humility to this comment, I'll confess that I used to write my resume in LaTeX. After seeing how many other people do too, I stopped.)

I don’t have a math background but I learned LaTeX out of necessity. If I needed a resume I might use it just because it seems easier than messing with Word. It’s not like LaTeX is that hard to use so I don’t see why you see it as performative.

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