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Comment by alistairSH | Hacker News Reader

Nobody is going to buy a car that will randomly make its own decisions, that will pull the wheel from your hands ever time it thinks you are making an illegal lane change.

That's almost exactly what my Honda does. Illegal (no signal) lane change results in a steering wheel shaker (and optional audio alert). And the car, when sensing an abrupt swerve which is interpreted as the vehicle leaving the roadway, attempts to correct that via steering and brake inputs.

But, I agree with your more general point - the human still needs to be primary. My Honda doesn't allow me to remove my hands from the steering wheel for more than a second or two. Tesla should be doing the same, as no current "autopilot" system is truly automatic.

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> That's almost exactly what my Honda does. Illegal (no signal) lane change results in a steering wheel shaker (and optional audio alert). And the car, when sensing an abrupt swerve which is interpreted as the vehicle leaving the roadway, attempts to correct that via steering and brake inputs.

By the way, this is fucking terrifying when you first encounter it in a rental car on a dark road with poor lane markings while just trying to get to your hotel after a five hour flight.

I didn't encounter an obvious wheel shaker, but this psychotic car was just yanking the wheel in different directions as I was trying to merge onto a highway.

Must be what a malfunctioning MCAS felt like in a 737 MAX, but thankfully without the hundreds of pounds of hydraulic force.

> Illegal (no signal) lane change results in a steering wheel shaker (and optional audio alert).

To be clear, tying the warning to the signal isn't about preventing unsignaled lane changes, it's gauging driver intent (i.e. is he asleep and drifting or just trying to change lanes). It's just gravy that it will train bad drivers to use their signals properly.

Correct. It's not (primarily) a training thing, but used to ensure the driver is driving and not sleeping/watching movies/whatever.

Is a lane change without signal always illegal? I know that it almost certainly make you liable for any resulting accident, but I'm not sure that it is universally illegal.

I have no idea, but the point wasn't so much that the lane change is illegal, but that lack of signal is used to indicate lack of driver attention. I shouldn't have used "illegal" in my original post.

This is technically true in Ontario (TIL).

> 142 (1) The driver or operator of a vehicle upon a highway before turning (...) from one lane for traffic to another lane for traffic (...) shall first see that the movement can be made in safety, and if the operation of any other vehicle may be affected by the movement shall give a signal plainly visible to the driver or operator of the other vehicle of the intention to make the movement. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 142 (1).

That said there's zero cost to doing so regardless of whether other drivers are affected.

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08#BK243

That's the sort of law I remember. It is considered a failure to communicate your intention rather than a violation per se in every circumstance.

It could be one of those "if a tree falls in the forest" scenarios. If a cop is near enough to see you not signal, he could easily argue that he himself might have been affected by the turn or lane change.

> Is a lane change without signal always illegal? I know that it almost certainly make you liable for any resulting accident

Usually, it makes you liable because it is illegal. CA law for instance reqires signalling 100ft before a lane change or turn.

Yes, failure to signal is a traffic violation. At least everywhere I've lived/traveled in the US. It's also a rather convenient excuse for police to "randomly" pull you over (I've been pulled over by Chicago PD for not signaling for a lane change, despite actually having done so).

Just to add, I have a 2021 Honda, and disabling this functionality is a 1-button-press toggle on the dash to the left of the steering wheel. Not mandatory.

Tesla’s system also requires driving’s to have their hands on the steering wheel and occasionally provide torque input.

Interesting, I assumed it didn't, given the prevalence of stories about driver watching movies on their phones. I guess they just leave one hand lightly on the wheel, but are still able to be ~100% disengaged from driving the car.

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