Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago
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I'm pretty sure the irony of commemorating the Berlin wall and its fall via people with guns stopping the public from crossing was lost on them.
I got out of there just in time. It's the only time I've seen large scale street violence. I don't think it belongs in a civilized society.
"...more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" [1] - Martin Luther King, Jr.
I wasn't there on the street with you 15 years ago. I don't know what the protestors were protesting (though "antifa", depending on how you use the term may suggest they were protesting a fascist/neo-nazi group).
But i include this quote only to say that you have to be careful to consider whether society is as civilized as those in power believe it is, and whether it can always be improved through other "civilized" manners.
MLK was very clear about what he meant by "justice", never tried to hide his identity, and didn't respond with violence.
"Antifa", on the other hand, aren't even honest about what they want. They call themselves anti-fascist, but they are anarchists, who dishonestly label any authority "fascist".
Trump's America absolutely was heading in a fascist direction by the strict definition of the term ("a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition").
While there is no one single organized Antifa leadership or central planning, the participants were generally united by a truly genuine goal of resistance to fascism.
And violence only broke out when instigated by the state forces, bolstered by the knowledge that local, state, and federal governments are in support of them.
But if you insist on talking about America, let me cite a recent example of Antifa dishonestly labeling anything they oppose "fascist".
Antifa rioters attacked a protest against vaccine mandates yesterday in Los Angeles. They sprayed mace on the protestors and one protestor was stabbed. They claimed the protestors were fascists and billed their response as "no safe space for fascists".
However anyone may feel about vaccine mandates, I challenge them to justify calling opposition to vaccine mandates "fascist".
The really troubling thing about Antifa is that because they label everything they oppose "fascist", they feel justified using any measure to oppose it, like spraying mace and stabbing people.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-08-14/anti-vax...
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/person-stabbed-vaccinat...
In the latimes article, it seemed to me the anti-vaccination group was doing the attacking - also the article does not mention antifa, the only "anti" it mentions is the anti-vaccination group, who seem violently oriented in that article.
The nbc article does mention a group against fascism, but the attacking again seems to come from the anti-vax group.
So I don't see these reports as against antifa, I only see the articles supporting the idea that anti-vaxers are prone to violence, at least in this incidence.
If not intentional now, I can see that kind of thing happening in the future.
https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/gedenken-an-mauerbau-steinmei...
https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/corona-demo-rechtsext...
> I'm guessing this is the reason for the hordes of police.
Somehow I doubt it.
The Stasi and the Berlin Wall | DW Documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haxkWC6MgcQ
I just refinanced my house for a rate that is effectively negative in real terms right now.
I am sort-of familiar with real estate market in Prague and Ostrava, two very different cities.
Apartments in Ostrava were hard to sell even with low interest rates, because the city lost 10 per cent of its population - a typical rust belt phenomenon. Even just two years ago, an apartment put on market in Ostrava could be there for half a year before attracting a serious buyer.
They are now hot like hell and more than twice as much expensive.
It's also why you sometimes see a development with a several rows of houses meant for sale flanked by one or more apartment buildings with a far smaller footprint but enough floors to equal roughly the same usable area in order to get the project approved.
But it's also easy to see why for someone looking for rent in many big cities today it looks like most apartments are owned by big management companies. New developments in "hot" cities with high demand and such laws are owned by a management company because that's the only way it works. You'd see entire buildings owned by the developer. It will take decades for those new apartments to go into private ownership.
[0] https://www.thelocal.de/20210708/explained-munichs-radical-n...
What, except maybe that states are immoral and opportunistic, does these things tell us?
I am not sure. Maybe I am missing net positive things as outcomes from these behaviors. But to me neither example is good.
The German / Austrian / Hungarian scientists that worked on the bomb came to the US years before the Manhattan project started.
I remember my professor at University arguing against the fact that this idea was presented as proven fact, when there were many question in the scientific community.
Not sure how maybe newer evidence might have changed it. I would need to dive into the actual scientific literature to update my knowledge of the topic.
Moreover the DDR cannot seriously have had such concerns, since it too e.g. employed former Nazi officers in its army.
If you dig into the history it’s pretty interesting. The USSR and France I believe were adamant about de-Nazification, but petered out quickly when they realized it was holding up rebuilding the country. The US and UK weren’t too worried about lower level Nazi’s once the leaders and major war criminals were handled.
By 1961, it was definitely unfair to continue using the term in its original meaning, and at this point it was certainly the Russian government pushing their agenda a lot more strongly than the general population would have on its own. But it's not like everyone was strictly opposed to it either - the horrors of the war had created in Eastern Europe such deep resentment towards Germany that it would take a lot more than 16 years to get over that. In fact, my grandpa lived until the 90s and still called every German a fascist.
antifa?
the political left has never stopped using the term fascist as a pejorative, it's thrown around quite liberally even today
There are some hilarious misconceptions that members of those factions have about their own ideologies. Far-left is against the police brutality, but there is a 100 year history of perfect correlation between leftist regimes and policy brutality.
Far-right is against government interventions in all economic matters, but that also has never materialized anywhere else.
The bottom line is that anything that's far-something requires suppression of the society's natural tendency to return to the center.
They were certainly leftist. Many would consider them far leftist today. (Of course they weren't, but that doesn't mean the label wouldn't be applied.)
Neither was legendary for police brutality. That came later, with Thatcher's response to the Miner's Strike and the poll tax riots - among others.
It is also likely that subjects of certain British colonies would have a substantially different opinion on police violence.
Also, the idea that a physical barrier could affect the spread of information.
Its interesting how much of 20th century history centers on Berlin.
There's a wall museum in Berlin, well worth visiting.
Edit: thanks for the reminders about contemporary split cities, sobering to think about those
We see this more often than not. The modern version just omit the walls
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/upshot/2020-electio...
> physical barrier could affect the spread of information Don't you think that there is a component of physical barrier in today's internet? while this may sound odd for the Americans, this is very typical in many parts of the world (East Europe, Asia and parts of Africa and Latin America)
Current reality in Nicosia (capital of Cyprus, a EU nation).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Buffer_Zone_in_...
>"The Turkish army has built a barrier on the zone's northern side, consisting mainly of barbed-wire fencing, concrete wall segments, watchtowers, anti-tank ditches, and minefields. The zone cuts through the centre of Nicosia, separating the city into southern and northern sections. In total, it spans an area of 346 square kilometres (134 sq mi), varying in width from less than 20 metres (66 ft) to more than 7 kilometres (4.3 mi).[2][3][4] Because of this, after the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, Nicosia remains the last divided capital in Europe.[5][6]"
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selbstschussanlage
(I haven't found the matching article on the English Wikipedia, sorry)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring-gun
(on most wiki pages you can find matching articles in other languages near the bottom of the column of links under the wikipedia logo on the far left of the desktop version)
Travel from West to East was unrestricted of course.
We had working age relatives visiting us from the East in the West in the 1980s. But visa were not easily granted, not at all for people in many positions. And only for one person of a family at a time. I'm sure the Stasi checked in advance that the risk of not returning to their family was low.
Traveling from the West to the East was not free either. Officially it was only allowed to visit relatives and for cultural exchange. Individual tourist journeys were not allowed, only day visits to East-Berlin. But nobody checked very carefully whether the "relatives" were real. I had a friend of mine visit distant relatives of myself in the 1980s. They just filled in that the relationship would be cousin or something like that and nobody asked or checked. The East was interested in the money from the West. For every visiting day there was a mandatory exchange. From a Western point burning money because you could not buy anything of equivalent value for money in the East. I bought a big series of math books translated from Russian once. I fear I still haven't read them all. Maybe when I retire...
Healing and forgiveness, on both sides, must occur before reunification.
I have an instinctive reaction to that type of language now - it makes me wonder if one side has dramatically more fault than the other
A few post above someone wrote something that "'fascist' refer to Germans who didn't join communism"
And that one may say, extremists are 'well-aligned on the idea of strict enforcement of their ideologies' (Quoting).
So take a look at history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwardian_era
And add that Wilhelm II (Germany) was an grandchild of the british Queen Victoria. And, that socialdemocracy as domestic policy was concerned the biggest threat of his time (under his politics)
Bismarck (his predecessor) for example whereas is considered as the father of the 'modern' welfare state.
Maybe a try to show how easy it was to distract me, with a simple 'governments pushing their agenda a lot more strongly than the general population would have on its own'. (-;
Along with massive repatriations for lost property; compensation to the families of the hundreds who disappeared; and criminal investigations of those responsible for -- and who profited from -- the orgy of plunder and mayhem that ensued after the partition.
Of course.
Jerusalem says hi.
Say welcome to the "Peace lines" or "Peace walls" [0] in Belfast and other cities in North Ireland. There's also Jerusalem, Nicosia and more places with walls around certain areas.
Sci-fi is usually about future. With 8 billion people in the world and growing, I can definitely see some other places divided by walls so that hostile factions do not mix.
There are "peace lines" in contemporary Belfast and Derry still in existence.
It didn't, radio waves didn't stop at the wall ;)
My dad told stories of communist youths tearing down people's "west antennas" and there were also attempts to jam western TV and radio stations, but this was in the early 60's or so. Later it was more or less tolerated (to watch western TV and listen to western radio), even though officially a taboo.
if you actually want the speculative fiction version and the concept taken to the extreme, you're in luck
60 years ago, the Berlin Wall went up, dividing the city — and more
https://www.dw.com/en/60-years-ago-the-berlin-wall-went-up-d...
The East German secret police and the Berlin Wall
https://www.dw.com/en/the-east-german-secret-police-and-the-...
Underground pop art thrived in East Germany
https://www.dw.com/en/underground-pop-art-thrived-in-east-ge...
* The wall was not between East and West Berlin, but between West Berlin and the GDR, entirely enclosing West Berlin, naturally. (45 km bordered East Berlin, 113 km Potsdam, the state around Berlin.)
* Just two months before the wall was built, at a press conference, Walter Ulbricht, then head of the GDR, said that nobody had the intention of building a wall. "Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu errichten."
* It wasn't just a wall, but an entire corridor 50m to several hundred metres wide (on the "Eastern" side), consisting of a smaller wall ("Hinterlandmauer"), sometimes corridors for K-9s (German shepherds, naturally), anti-tank obstacles ("Czech hedgehog"), observation towers (302 by the time the wall came down), control strips "Kontrollstreifen" of freshly harrowed sand so trespassers would leave tracks, then "the wall", then a few more metres GDR, then the actual legal border. (However, no "Selbstschussanlagen SM-70", shotguns rigged to fire automatically - those were only deployed at the border to West Germany.)
* There were 2300 border troops deployed at any time, mostly in pairs to control each other, but rotating, so that they couldn't form a bond. They were under an order to shoot trespassers, the infamous "Schiessbefehl".
* Some 100 to 200+ people died trying to cross the wall. It is surprisingly hard to put an exact number on it.
* There were some "enclaves" (exclaves?) like the Lenné-Dreieck (Lenné-triangle): on the "western" side of the wall, but officially belonging to the East, so effectively a no-man's land.
* One of the iconic events precipitating the fall was in Sept 1989. Many (thousands) of East Germans had traveled to Prague, Czechoslovakia (not part of the USSR, but of the Eastern Bloc), and climbed over the fence of the West German embassy there, camping on the grounds. On 30 Sept, the foreign minister of West Germany (after long negotiations with USSR foreign minister Shevardnadse), Hans-Dietrich Genscher, appeared on the balcony to tell those refugees that they could go on to West Germany. The rest of the speech was basically drowned out by cheering as soon as the crowd heard "Ausreise". See here from about 1:20. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov9IHjX8UF4
* Then, on 9 Nov 1989, the wall fell, and it was a surprisingly silly culmination of the revolution. The East German authorities knew that they couldn't carry on, and were planning to gradually open the borders from December onwards (given that people could flee via Czechoslovakia anyway). They started working on legislation, and there was lots of discussions going back and forth (would people that left be allowed to return, etc.) On Nov 9, they sent the first secretary of the party (Sozialistische Einheitspartei Deutschlands) in East Berlin, Günter Schabowski, on a press conference to talk about these plans, but he hadn't attended the deliberations and was basically reading from some notes he had been handed. An Italian reporter asked about it the border, and Schabowski announced these plans for liberalisation, live on TV. He was then asked when these would go into effect, and he shuffled around in those papers and said "as far as I know, that's applicable now, immediately". People stormed the border ("first gradually, then suddenly"), and the rest was history. See around 0:40 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn4VDwaV-oo
My mom's family abandoned their house and factory and fled to the west when the Russians took their property and punished them for being capitalists. Since the wall wasn't up yet they left through Berlin, which was like a porthole to the west at the time.
The reasons why the East German government did not close the border within Berlin are complex. For example the Sowjets first had the goal to make Berlin an independent but unified city. But there were also economical and logistical issues: The border would cut important railway transport routes for East Berlin, for which a replacement was only completed in 1961.
They could only take one suitcase to make it look like they were visiting western Germany only. So he and his family came to the west.
His life went in a way so that he got a job near the border as it was back then in north eastern Bavaria.
Not far from where I grew up there was another village divided by a wall: Little Berlin [1]
It was interesting as a child to grow up near a divided village and country. And seeing the border fall.
I still remember my dad, tears streaming down his face while watching people standing on the Berlin Wall when it fell. I remember him welcoming the trains from the West German Embassy with the GDR people shortly before that. [2]
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6dlareuth?wprov=sfla1
[2]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fl%C3%BCchtlingsz%C3%BCge_aus_... (German only)
>The Eastern Bloc portrayed the Wall as protecting its population from fascist elements conspiring to prevent the "will of the people" from building a socialist state in East Germany.
If it's the latter, I hope you'll never look into the historic use of terms such as democracy, freedom/liberty or "free elections".