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You identified the problem, but confused the solution.

Simply don't have police state totalitarian mandates.

no OP is actually not wrong. One of the reasons why you have these sideways mission creep of surveillance in a lot of countries is because the government simply does not have the strength to effectively take care of problems right then and there. It's a sign of governments being too weak, not too strong.

"Simply don't have xy" doesn't work when the problem is actually real. The population will always choose safety or public health over some sort of libertarian daydream.

The scanning already isn't necessary. What makes you think everyone getting vaccinated would cut back on government surveillance? You would just have to check in with your vaccine passport to prove that you can enter rather than check in for contact tracing; exact same problem either way.

The "threat of terrorism" has long been used by media and governments in a cynical way to demonize specific groups. The most common act of terrorism in Western countries in the past few years has been arson of historical churches, yet we almost never see mainstream reporting. On the other hand, we are constantly told of the "[insert group] terror threat" that turns up no actual terrorist acts.

> You would just have to check in with your vaccine passport to prove that you can enter rather than check in for contact tracing; exact same problem either way.

The QR code is the vaccine passport. The test with the 2-day validity is simply another way to get it temporarily.

And if everyone is vaccinated, why do we still need to do contact tracing? The idea was that it doesn't have enough hosts to reach R > 1 so it'll fizzle out anyway.

It is not possible to reduce R below 1 through vaccination alone with the current vaccines and the current Delta variant. The press has had a tendency to downplay or even outright lie about this, especially in countries with lower vaccine uptakes where it's politically convenient, but the British press and medical experts seem to be a bit more upfront with this now that 75% of adults are fully vaccinated and almost 90% have had at least one shot: https://www.politico.eu/article/herd-immunity-not-a-possibil... (This is about the goal countries like Australia and South Korea have been pointing to as the point where they can start rolling back restrictions.)

But what about the current vaccines + Delta + some minor measures?

This is what works in most EU countries now.

I'd much rather deal with some minor distancing instead of having to ID myself everywhere I go.

Also, most people in the UK have been vaccinated with AstraZeneca which is much less effective (and this Pollard guy has a huge commercial interest in that so this won't factor into his story)

The current vaccines + some minor measures probably wouldn't be enough. It's quite plausible that the Delta variant spreads as effectively in a fully vaccinated population as the original variant did in an entirely unvaccinated one, and you can probably remember what it took to get that somewhat under control. The UK does to have relatively stable case and infection numbers without major official restrictions, but we have a lot of natural immunity and large voluntary reductions in the level of social interaction, plus it's summer here.

The vaccines limit the mortality rate a lot though so it's much less of an issue. Eventually we will all have to build up natural immunity anyway because the virus will not go away. And natural immunity is adaptive. And a low mortality risk makes it much less of an issue to let it spread IMO. The biggest issue with Covid is that it's a 'novel' virus that nobody had any immunity to. Once we do it'll take the edge off it and it'll just be another of those minor illnesses we shouldn't worry too much about.

> and get a QR code scanned at every shop, every restaurant

How does this work for those who don't own a smartphone?

Here in the UK you do not need to scan, you can just write down your phone number and name. It's a legal requirement for the information to be accurate though, I think.

I believe that it is (rather, was) your "contact details", not everyone has a phone; and I've never heard of anyone being prosecuted for giving false details

You can print the QR code too.

Why the -1? :) The EU CoronaCheck used in most countries here was explicitly designed so it can be printed, for those without smartphones or not willing to use the app.

And most countries that enforce this are in the EU.

They'll provide a sheet of paper. For some reason since covid I always forget to bring my phone when going out in Australia

I've had good luck asking for paper in Victoria. In Queensland I've just been told to use the app or fuck off.

I will use the paper one too. I don't really trust the app.

With the previous covid detection apps (the covid API from Apple/Google) privacy was really a key design goal and I had no issues using that.

With these new QR apps (the EU CoronaCheck program) there was less of a focus on this. Part of that makes sense, as it's meant to identify the user's status it's not possible to be completely anonymous. But there has hardly been any info on whether the apps phone home. Also, the Apple/Google API apps from each country were almost all open source. None of that now. It's taken for granted that privacy is not a concern anymore, for some reason.

> I think we're going too far to accomodate those who won't get vaccinated. If everyone gets it, this scanning wouldn't be necessary

If every last man woman and child on the planet get vaccinated; if every mouse, cat, dog, ferret, pig, monkey and deer get vaccinated too, the potential for a breakout vaccine resistant infection is still there.

Also, there is still virtually zero talk of implementing vaccine exemptions for people with naturally acquired immunity, which seems superior in every way.

So, this isn't about "accommodating" the non vaccinated. It's not about safety, or science. It seems to be completely about control, complete control.

My country hasn't hired more nurses, built more ICU beds, legislated for or supported better air circulation indoors, or subsidised antigen testing - but they have implemented a vaccine passport for cafes and restaurants, against the advice of our council on civil liberties, our data privacy chief, and the WHO covid envoy. We're told it's a temporary measure, and I have no doubt that it will be as "temporary" as the Patriot Act.

> My country hasn't hired more nurses, built more ICU beds, legislated for or supported better air circulation indoors, or subsidised antigen testing - but they have implemented a vaccine passport for cafes and restaurants, against the advice of our council on civil liberties, our data privacy chief, and the WHO covid envoy. We're told it's a temporary measure, and I have no doubt that it will be as "temporary" as the Patriot Act.

Yeah this is what bothers me too. We're bound to see some more waves and continued pressure on the health system for a long time to come yet nothing seems to be done to actually fix that.

When Covid first hid the excuse was "we can't ramp up that quickly" but now that it's here to stay that excuse is still there. But every week they wait makes the wait even longer.

I agree natural immunity is good too. It's automatically adaptive to new variants (and the vaccine can help there as it'll be much less risky to get covid so everyone gets exposed to it a bit).

What I said about accomodating the unvaccinated, this was mainly because the government presents it as such. "We can't force vaccination so we have to check everyone every time". So many basic rights thrown in the trash without any debate. I agree there's probably ulterior motives. And I know it likely won't go away, this is why I'm so strongly against.

I think in the long term I will move to a country that doesn't do this. I've already been moving around all my life.

> Yeah this is what bothers me too.

Yet you fell for government propaganda and report the fault on people who don't want to take part in clinical trial. The restriction of liberty with a vaccinal passport is purely a political choice and has nothing with health per se. A lot of countries are doing fine without it.

I understand what you mean but I'm just trying to debate the government at the reasoning they imposed.

I agree a vaccine passport isn't necessary in these cases. I can see the benefit for international travel, but imposing it on every aspect of public life is a really invasive and unwarranted measure.

I don't think taking the vaccine is such a big deal, but I understand that others feel differently. I don't want to give up my privacy for their privilege though :)

I think we're going too far to accomodate those who won't get vaccinated. If everyone gets it, this scanning wouldn't be necessary.

How do you force everyone to get it without the apparatus of the police state?

>How do you force everyone to get it without the apparatus of the police state?

Develop a more deadly virus?

These vaccination records are there already anyway, in Europe most countries have a national health system that knows exactly who has it and who doesn't.

But it's not as bad as a detailed step by step log of every person's activities every day.

Also, I think some level of noncompliance should be accepted. The vaccines don't work 100% anyway, these are just a few more percent. The number of people opposed to vaccination in Europe is very low compared to the US. The vaccination rate will be more than high enough for decent protection.

We're never going to reduce the risk of covid to zero for an individual. Just like we're never going to reduce the risk of dying from cancer to zero. Some risk just has to be accepted as a fact of life.

These vaccination records are there already anyway

They are, in the UK attached to you NHS number for example. But the question is, how you you force the non-compliant to comply? Form the set-difference of the NHS and national DBs, hunt down and inject the non-compliant? Sounds a bit police-statey to me. Or make daily life dependent on showing your NHS number? Easy to fake, so we'd need NHS photo id-cards to get a coffee, ... sounds a bit police-statey to me ... etc

> Or make daily life dependent on showing your NHS number? Easy to fake, so we'd need NHS photo id-cards to get a coffee, ... sounds a bit police-statey to me ... etc

Exactly, yet this is exactly what Germany, France and Italy are doing right now.

You need the QR code which contains your name / DOB + Photo ID

Officially, they don't need your PII to validate your certificate: "The personal data of the certificate holder does not pass through the gateway, as this is not necessary to verify the digital signature" [1]

That said, I've not actually looked in to how these work... In Berlin at least, it's rare to get an ID check at a restaurant, usually someone just glances at your phone.

[1] https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-re...

edit: further: "The CovPassCheck app processes the QR code only in the working memory of the smartphone and does not store any data." [2]

[2] https://digitaler-impfnachweis-app.apps.public.bfarm.de/en/c...